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jamestl2
10-23-2009, 03:24 PM
I'm just curious as to what you could do to keep your ideas safe. I know that patents and copyrights exist, but sometimes I'm not sure if they'd be enough.

Let's say you have an idea and you think it could be big (not saying I do have anything revolutionary, I'm just playing out a hypothetical here...). This isn't necessarily internet or writing related, but it could be something tangible like the next PC, Communication Device, or whatever.

How do would you inform others about it (marketing your product), while still feeling perhaps a bit paranoid that other businesses (or more likely, large corporations) may try to steal your ideas, work around your protections, etc. (because they'd definitely have the departments to try).

And sometimes you don't even know if your invention idea would be worth it enough to warrant putting such time and effort into it. Not to mention the large budget required to create a prototype, start the business, etc. which most people don't have, especially if they have next to nothing, financially.

What would you guys do?

Just something I've been wondering about for awhile...

vangogh
10-23-2009, 04:15 PM
It depends what you have and think you need to protect. Most things need less protection that people think. For example you can't patent or copyright an idea. I have an idea for a battery that never runs out of charge. It's self charging and will solve the world's energy problems. I can't patent that. I'd actually have to build a working model and patent that.

So unless you have a working example you don't have anything patentable. Same basic idea for copyright.

Say my battery idea will work, but it'll take a million dollars of research and testing to prove it works and build the prototype. Well I don't have a million dollars so I'm going to have to trust someone to get the money. I could get an attorney first and get every lender to sign something etc., but the idea is now out there.

You have to think about what the patent or copyright does for you and whether or not it's worthwhile to get it. Obviously it makes sense in many cases. If I did figure out that battery thing I absolutely would want a patent.

I think less people will really want to steal your idea than you think. Sure it can and does happen, but for the most part the people you tell about your idea don't want to put in the work or the time to build the business. An idea isn't worth much. It's the implementation of that idea that's worth something and the implementation takes a lot more work and effort than most people want to give.

For example I could give you ideas for about 20 novels in the next few minutes. Are you going to take any of them and write a novel? Probably not. On the other hand if I share with you one of those ideas that I'm working on the conversation we might have about it could lead to knew and interesting thoughts for me to include while writing which could make the novel better.

Same thing for business concepts. Some things you want to be secretive about. Many more things will become better by having an open discussion and the reality is rare that one of the people you discuss your idea with is going to steal it. It could happen, but in that case I'd suggest you're not a good judge of character and who to trust.

Spider
10-23-2009, 05:34 PM
VG is spot on with the lack of enthusiasm people have for actually doing anything with ideas. In a slightly different arena, I am very much into self improvement and personal development. It always amazes me how few people actually do anything about improving themselves and developing their knowledge or skills. Not only do they know they should, they even know how, but don't. They'd rather buy another book or CD about how someone else does it, than actually get on with doing anything about improving their own life.

I say, if you have an idea and really want to do something with it, just start talking about it, looking for ways to make it happen. No-one is going to steal it. Anyone with the drive to do anything with your idea is too busy working on their own ideas.

Consider this - Have you ever spoken to someone who has had a great idea stolen? Probably not, but let's suppose you have. This person will be complaining that they had this idea 15 years ago and look! Now, such-and-such company is selling the bejesus out of it and making a fortune - a fortune your friends says should be his. Then ask him what he did 15 years ago to bring the idea to fruition and what he has done in the past 15 years to make a success of his life?

The answer to both questions is likely to be, "Not much!"

jamestl2
10-23-2009, 05:47 PM
You do need a working prototype to acquire a patent? I thought you just needed working designs and claims. I knew working prototypes could certainly help, but didn't realize they were a necessity (not that it was a big deal either way).


but in that case I'd suggest you're not a good judge of character and who to trust.

It's not that I wouldn't trust the people I'm telling about the idea, it's just that once you do tell a few people, it becomes "public" per se, and virtually anyone within range that hears about the idea, could actually do something about it. Not that there's a large audience of people who will be acting upon it, but if someone you trust tells a few people about it, then they happen to tell a few other people about it (word of mouth), then there's the possibility that somewhere along the lines someone may overhear and actually take it to the next level.

It just reminds me of the kind of Battles between Gray and Bell (over the telephone) or between Farnsworth and Zworykin (over the Television), not to mention the lack of Patent and Copyright honors internationally (thinking about the Chinese here...).


On the one hand, you dream about having your invention become a success and helping a lot of people all over the world, however there's the strong possibility that it will fail. Then there's the issue of figuring out whether or not you should put all the time and effort into making it a reality, due to the fact that many probably can't find the time without sacrificing a great deal of what they already have.

And what if you have all kinds of ideas flowing through your head, but you don't have the physical skills to actually create a prototype, and aren't exactly sure how to manifest those thoughts?

I'm guessing most people probably have a lack of enthusiasm because they figure something like, "I'm just one guy, how can I hope to accomplish something that corporations seem to do on an everyday basis?" or "If I could think of something this great, why hasn't anyone else thought of it? Why is it not already out there? There must be something wrong with thee idea." But if you don't act upon your ideas, you won't get anywhere. It's kinda disheartening...

Spider
10-23-2009, 09:56 PM
...But if you don't act upon your ideas, you won't get anywhere. It's kinda disheartening...How is it disheartening? One has an idea about something, does nothing about it and is disheartened that it doesn't get anywhere?

What are you hoping for? A miracle?

If you are going to be disheartened by the inevitable and the obvious, what WON'T you get disheartened over?

James, if you have an idea that you believe is fabulous, then start working on it. VG gave you a few pointers. Your local librarian will be able to give you a few more pointers. Check out Meetup.com (http://www.meetup.com) for inventor groups that meet in your vicinity. Get a job in the industry that would build and sell your product when it is produced. Start today taking small steps towards achieving your goal.

If all you are going to do is be disheartened because if you don't act on your ideas, you won't get anywhere, then you have given up before you start, and you would have proven me correct - that very few people are prepared to get off their butt and start improving their lives.

I suggest, instead, you start right now proving me wrong!

vangogh
10-23-2009, 11:05 PM
James I might be wrong about needing a prototype to qualify for a patent. In fact I think you're right and you don't need one. All I meant was you need more than an idea.


And what if you have all kinds of ideas flowing through your head, but you don't have the physical skills to actually create a prototype, and aren't exactly sure how to manifest those thoughts?

Then why would it matter if you shared the idea. Very few ideas are so original that only one person ever thinks of them. While you're trying to acquire the skills someone else is building the product.

I'm not saying you have to discuss your ideas in a public forum, but you should know at least a few people who you can talk to who you can trust not to spread the idea further.


It always amazes me how few people actually do anything about improving themselves and developing their knowledge or skills. Not only do they know they should, they even know how, but don't. They'd rather buy another book or CD about how someone else does it, than actually get on with doing anything about improving their own life.

Many people seem to be more infatuated with the idea of being something than they are with actually putting in the effort to be that something. Some major industries are based on that simple fact.


This person will be complaining that they had this idea 15 years ago and look! Now, such-and-such company is selling the bejesus out of it and making a fortune - a fortune your friends says should be his. Then ask him what he did 15 years ago to bring the idea to fruition and what he has done in the past 15 years to make a success of his life?

Exactly. And it shows how the idea itself is mostly worthless and why sitting on it and not talking about it is pointless too. While you're sitting on the idea and doing all you can to make sure no one finds out about it, someone else is developing that same idea.

jamestl2
10-23-2009, 11:59 PM
How is it disheartening? One has an idea about something, does nothing about it and is disheartened that it doesn't get anywhere?

What are you hoping for? A miracle?


Not quite what I meant, let me give everyone an example... (I'll tell you guys because I honestly don't know how good (or bad) of an idea this particular one could be, and I have others.)

A while back when I thought up of a list of inventions I thought could become fairly popular. One of those ideas I'll call Gardening Gloves. They're basically a pair of Metal Gloves with sharp claws on the end each finger to dig holes, grind up weed roots, etc...

Everyone I told about the idea (parents, aunts and uncles, friends, etc.), ALL thought it sounded stupid. They thought it would make people feel more like Freddy Krueger than easing their gardening day. (Again, I'm not saying this is the greatest idea I came up with, I'm just using it for the purpose of this post.)

Now that we have the idea down, let's just say I put all the hours into developing a prototype, despite all the criticism the idea garnered. I spend a few days drawing up sketches, a few weeks sewing the gloves together, another few weeks welding the metal together, and another few weeks acquiring a patent and legal info down, and afterwords doing who knows how many hours marketing and spreading the word. And I don't have the best skills to develop the idea, I wouldn't consider myself a welder, sewer, legal expert, or marketer by an stretch of the imagination, and without much capital, the prototype would probably suck horribly.

Now if by the slightest chance some people do happen to like it and it takes off a bit, a major corporation such as Home Depot or whomever could come in develop their own competing Garden Gloves and sell it at a much lower price and mass produce it at a much faster rate then I could myself (even if I had the start-up capital to hire a few workers and produce a few thousand or however many).

So why would I want to put COUNTLESS hours into developing a product that has no guarantee of succeeding? It seems like in the end all I'll end up with is either tons of hours wasted away for nothing, or even more time spending years of my life competing with companies through legal battles, searching for new cost methods, marketing trips, etc. and hope to come out on top. Neither sounds very appealing, while I could very easily go bankrupt choosing either.

I know there has to be some risk involved, it's business, but how do I know when the price becomes low enough where I should go ahead and take it?

jamestl2
10-24-2009, 12:13 AM
Very few ideas are so original that only one person ever thinks of them. While you're trying to acquire the skills someone else is building the product.


Steve, I'm not quite sure what you mean here. A ton of single people have been credited with inventions and discoveries. In addition to the inventions I mentioned in post #4, just off the top of my head there's also been things like the light bulb (Edison), Penicillin (Fleming) Velcro (Mestral) and the WWW (Berners-Lee), among many others:
List of inventors - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_inventors)

Dan Furman
10-24-2009, 12:23 AM
They're basically a pair of Metal Gloves with sharp claws on the end each finger to dig holes, grind up weed roots, etc...

They sound dangerous.

I'm just imagining the lawsuits... :)

Steve B
10-24-2009, 07:07 AM
"a major corporation such as Home Depot or whomever could come in develop their own competing Garden Gloves"

Then you sue them for patent infringment if their gloves are so similar to yours that is would be deemed illegal under the patent laws. That's the whole point of getting a patent - to protect your idea from being copied.

Of course, they have big bucks and it will take years and years - but we're just speaking hypothetically here. But, you wouldn't be the first small guy to defeat a giant.

Spider
10-24-2009, 08:45 AM
...Now that we have the idea down, let's just say I put all the hours into developing a prototype, despite all the criticism the idea garnered. I spend a few days drawing up sketches, a few weeks sewing the gloves together, another few weeks welding the metal together, and another few weeks acquiring a patent and legal info down, and afterwords doing who knows how many hours marketing and spreading the word. And I don't have the best skills to develop the idea, I wouldn't consider myself a welder, sewer, legal expert, or marketer by an stretch of the imagination, and without much capital, the prototype would probably suck horribly.
...Now if by the slightest chance some people do happen to like it and it takes off a bit, a major corporation such as Home Depot or whomever could come in develop their own competing Garden Gloves and sell it at a much lower price and mass produce it at a much faster rate then I could myself (even if I had the start-up capital to hire a few workers and produce a few thousand or however many).
...So why would I want to put COUNTLESS hours into developing a product that has no guarantee of succeeding? It seems like in the end all I'll end up with is either tons of hours wasted away for nothing, or even more time spending years of my life competing with companies through legal battles, searching for new cost methods, marketing trips, etc. and hope to come out on top. Neither sounds very appealing, while I could very easily go bankrupt choosing either.... Yes.

And with that atitude, I recommend you give up now, put all your ideas in the trashcan and go get a nice, comfortable job somewhere. The life of an inventor is not an easy one, whether you score big or not. But you clearly know that already, because you seem to be an expert in why you can't do it.

Either you want us to tell you that everyone who has an idea is bound to be rich and successful without working for it, or this conversation is an exercise in futility.

Again, I suggest you start doing something to prove me wrong.

Spider
10-24-2009, 08:47 AM
They sound dangerous.
I'm just imagining the lawsuits... :)Think about it, Dan - electricity is dangerous. But where would we be without it?!

jamestl2
10-24-2009, 12:10 PM
That doesn't help very much.

Not sure what getting a "comfortable job" has to do with it, but I never expected inventing (or anything in life) to come easy. I'm just looking for tips on how I can change my cynical outlook on inventing in today's world, being as I really have no reason to expect otherwise.

vangogh
10-24-2009, 03:25 PM
I'm not quite sure what you mean here. A ton of single people have been credited with inventions and discoveries.

I didn't mean a single person couldn't invent something. What I meant was most ideas aren't unique to the point that only one person would ever think of it. Take the gardening gloves idea. I'm sure other people have had or will have similar ideas. So if you never act on it someone else likely will. Their implementation may not be exactly the same as yours, but in all likelihood more than one person has thought of or will think of the idea to create a glove that can double as a digging implement.

In fact one reason many products sell so well is because many of us had thought of the idea or at least wished something existed. Take something like the snuggy. It's a blanket with sleeves. Who here has ever sat on a couch in winter wrapped in a blanket, wishing they could both keep their arms warm and have them free to do other things at the same time. The idea isn't anything so unique. Someone though decided to implement the idea and turn it into a product and now is a wealthy person.


So why would I want to put COUNTLESS hours into developing a product that has no guarantee of succeeding?

There's is never going to be a guarantee of succeeding. Business is about taking risk. Ideally you do what you can to mitigate the risk, but it's always a risk. In the case of the gloves, maybe a patent would be the right move if it would prevent a Home Depot from competing with you. You might also pitch the idea to them for a % of what comes from it or sell the idea directly to them or even pitch the idea in an effort to get a job. Say a Home Depot puts in the money and effort to produce and market their glove and you don't. In all honesty why shouldn't they be the ones to profit. Again it's not the idea itself that has value, but the implementation, the execution of that idea.


I know there has to be some risk involved, it's business, but how do I know when the price becomes low enough where I should go ahead and take it?

The truth is you don't know. You do your best. Successful people are successful not because they had one good idea, but because they took a chance on many ideas till they got to the one that worked. If you can come up with one good idea, you can come up with more. Ideas are a dime a dozen.


I'm just looking for tips on how I can change my cynical outlook on inventing in today's world, being as I really have no reason to expect otherwise.

I wish I could give one piece of advice to change your outlook, but I can't. That's going to come down to you. Know two things.

1. There's no guarantee you'll be successful if you try something.
2. There is a guarantee you won't be successful if you don't try.

Yes, it is absolutely possible you can have a great idea and start to act on the idea as best you can and some other company steals the idea and makes the money you feel should have been yours. If it happens it'll suck. Then you pick yourself up and try another idea. This time with a better understanding of what it will take. You could look at it not being fair that a Home Depot could more easily market your idea, but the truth is Home Depot spent years growing to the point where they can leverage a new idea and make it work for them in a way the lone inventor can't.

A big part of business is working to have the resources in place when opportunity knocks so you can answer the door.

Spider
10-24-2009, 07:06 PM
That doesn't help very much.... Of course it doesn't! That's the point. You don't need help - what you need is some "get-up-and-go."

I gave you a few ideas to help you take the next step - but you prefer to focus on your cynical outlook and having no reason to not feel cynical, and expecting someone else to change your attitude for you. Well, that ain't going to happen!

I'm just waiting for the "world isn't fair" comment, and the violins playing in the background!

So far, you appear to have done nothing to get this idea off the ground, and it's pretty clear to me you have no intention of doing anything.

I am outa here!

Harold Mansfield
10-26-2009, 02:55 PM
If you look at many of the popular "As seen on T.V." type products that sell by the truck load, many of them are not original ideas, or are old ideas with a slightly new twist.
They have been selling the "Chopper" for 30 years under different names...they just keep marketing it differently..I think now you get a foldable cutting board with it.

Most times, it's not the product, it's the marketing. If you and Home Depot have similar products..even if yours is better, Home Depot will likely beat you hands down because they already have nationwide marketing in place, and brand that people trust.

You can't predict who will steal, or have the same idea as you..many companies have licensed products that they will never put on the market, just so no one else does, and some bring out products that they have held patents to for years, just waiting for the right time to launch them.

Movie producers are even bigger pack rats..they buy and hold on to thousands of screen plays that will never be movies, or that they dig out of the bottom drawer 10 years later. So to say that an idea is truly original, you would have to check the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, you may be suprised to see that something like Gardening Gloves has a patent that goes back to the early 1900's. Does that mean that it won't work?..of course not. Just about anything can work if you sell it the right way.

Not only that if you launch a successful product, there will likely be copycats anyway...you can't stop that. Look how many social networking sites there are.

If you talk yourself out of trying because of fear that someone will steal it, then you will never get anything off of the ground. Odds are in this day and age, no matter what you come up with, you will not be the best in the whole world..there will be someone better.
What is going to set you apart is your unique selling advantage, your marketing and how hard you work it (and of course how good the product is).

Is Windows the best operating system ? Was it ever ?
Is Starbucks the best or the cheapest coffee?
Is the "Sham Wow" the first time that you have ever seen a chamois? (we use to call them "Shammy's)
Do you really need to spend $20 on a plastic cup, with spring mounted blades to chop onions ?

Stop thinking "what if someone steals it" (although if you have an invention you should patent it), and start thinking how will I make people need it. That's the bigger picture in today's world.

jamestl2
10-26-2009, 05:32 PM
Know two things.

1. There's no guarantee you'll be successful if you try something.
2. There is a guarantee you won't be successful if you don't try.


Good advice for anyone, Steve. I do have a few other ideas I may try out, once I actually figure out how I'd want to create and make time for them.

Also while the money is certainly nice to have (icing on the cake), it wouldn't be my "top" priority. Pioneering an industry and being at the forefront of new ideas and technologies is really where it'd be at for me.

Sure, people have been successful with things like the Snuggie and other "As Seen on TV" products, but they don't really generate that much inspiration for me. As eborg said, they're not very original ideas. (Although if I truly believed my product could make a difference for a lot of people, even if it isn't the most original idea in the world, I'd probably go ahead and take it.)

Plus I'd want to be sure that my ideas aren't already patented or previously thought up of by other people, in case I had an idea where it would unfortunately turn out that it already exists, (and I've just never heard of it, usually because the creator hadn't really done anything with it, it's happened to me a couple of times before.)

I guess I just need to find that personal starting position to take off from, as every other business leader has, large or small.



Most times, it's not the product, it's the marketing.


That's what concerns me the most, the marketing aspect. Let's say I really do have a great idea, create a prototype, patent it and everything. That'd actually be the easy part. I wouldn't really know where to take it from there, or how to securely inform everyone about it.

I suppose I would have a few options like licensing to established companies that can effectively market it, pitching the idea to a few investors, or going all-out and founding a corporation based on the product (if I could afford to do so), etc. There just seems to be so many options to choose from with marketing, I wouldn't know where to begin.

And if I do happen to arrive on the unlucky side of the fence where competitors try to steal my ideas and years of work, would getting into potential mudslinging contests and legal battles with rival companies really be worth it?



but you prefer to focus on your cynical outlook and having no reason to not feel cynical, and expecting someone else to change your attitude for you. Well, that ain't going to happen!

I'm just waiting for the "world isn't fair" comment, and the violins playing in the background!

So far, you appear to have done nothing to get this idea off the ground, and it's pretty clear to me you have no intention of doing anything.


I do appreciate all the advice I've received so far, but that was rather uncalled for. I just started the topic to see if I could gain some insight into something that I have absolutely no experience with.

I never claimed that I "prefer to focus" on my cynical outlook, nor do I "expect" anyone to change it for me, that's just how I happen to perceive it, and was looking for some viewpoints or personal stories that may perhaps help me change my mind. And you have no idea of what my intentions are. That was not a product I was seriously thinking about stepping forward with, as I previously stated, it was just an example for the general purpose of this post.

Harold Mansfield
10-26-2009, 08:46 PM
I think the point that everyone is trying to make is, it doesn't have to be an original idea. You want to make sure that you aren't stealing it, of course, but just look around the forum. We all do different things, yet none of us are the only ones that so what we do, yet we still go for it.

I'll be honest, the odds of coming up with something simple like "Gardening Gloves" and having it be an original idea that has never been patented in the whole history of the USTPO is probably not going to happen...but it's not impossible.

The best inventors in recent history have been engineers of some sort, but there's always the guy that comes up with something simple like Bubba Teeth (which wasn't original) or Breathe Right Strips.

Protect your ideas and go forward. You can't live in fear of someone copying it because someone will. It's just the nature of capitalism. If it wasn't there wouldn't be:

Mc Donald's and Burger King
Coke and Pepsi
UPS and Fed Ex
Microsoft and Apple
Zune and Ipod
My Space and Facebook
Wordpress and Blogger
John Madden Footbal and NFL 2K

I could go on.
The game is to make yours the first. The Best. Or at least carve out your portion of the market.

vangogh
10-26-2009, 08:55 PM
That's what concerns me the most, the marketing aspect. Let's say I really do have a great idea, create a prototype, patent it and everything. That'd actually be the easy part. I wouldn't really know where to take it from there, or how to securely inform everyone about it.

You could either learn what you can about marketing or hire someone or partner with someone who already knows. It sounds like the more interesting part for you is developing the product. If that's the case why not find someone who's more interested in marketing the product? Partnerships like that exist everywhere.

Even if you hired someone I'd still suggest learning what you can about marketing. Marketing isn't something you tack on after the product is created, it's something you bake into the product. One reason why a lot of business ideas fail is because they attempted to solve a problem no one had. They get wrapped up in the idea of what they're creating, but don't realize that no one beyond them is really interested.

Other products are nothing special as far as the idea goes, but they do solve a problem people have. Again take the snuggy. Just about everyone has sat under a blanket at some point and wished they could still have their hands free. That identifies a problem a lot of people have. The solution? Sew sleeves into the blanket. By no means is it a revolutionary idea. Anyone could have come up with. Most people didn't. Someone did. It wouldn't surprise me though if hundreds or even thousands of people thought to themselves over the years that it would be great to have a blanket with sleeves, but they didn't go further with the idea.

Start with an idea you have and think about what problem would it solve and are there people who would be interested in it. Based on that does it make sense to develop it further or move onto the next idea.

One reason why you want to share your ideas is so you can discover if people would be interested in it. You want to get feedback to know if you're headed in the right direction or missed something important.

robertfederer
05-04-2010, 01:28 AM
Nice legal discussion is being carried out here. What I learned is that we cannot copyright an IDEA, instead one needs to build a model for filing for the copyrights & patents.

Dan Furman
05-04-2010, 11:53 AM
Nice legal discussion is being carried out here. What I learned is that we cannot copyright an IDEA, instead one needs to build a model for filing for the copyrights & patents.

I think the patent office would be overwhelmed by applications for ideas.

Ideas are a dime a dozen - every entrepreneur (or wannabee entrepreneur) I ever met has at least one killer idea in them.

People get ramped up about an idea, then fantasize about "selling the idea". But here's the kicker - they never tell anyone their idea, for fear of someone stealing it. And it never gets beyond the idea stage - they never produce their idea.

Truthfully, it's mental mastur****** at it's finest :)

vangogh
05-04-2010, 12:10 PM
Exactly. Everyone has ideas. It's only their implementation that's worth something. For example I have this idea that cars will be able to use water for fuel. If I was allowed to patent that idea then sometime down the line if someone else figures out how to make cars run on water then I make all the money. Not only would that not be fair, but why would anyone go about working on the how if they knew I get all the rewards.

The idea itself is worthless. It's only when you figure out how to take the idea and make it work that it has value.