PDA

View Full Version : Site builders and cheap web site solutions



cbscreative
10-23-2009, 01:12 PM
Not that I'm surprised, but it's always interesting to find out who's in the web design business and what kind of goods they're hawking. I've been reviewing a web site based on a referral because they needed some help.

In reviewing the site, I found out the good folks at Quick Books are promising an easy solution to success for small business people. I would not normally name names, but the claims they sell these under are far from reality (they should stick with bookkeeping software). The site I reviewed using one of their templates was such a mess in the code that my proposal involved rebuilding the site because fixing it would be much more time consuming.

The reality is, this is a way for companies to get an easy $5 a month from as many ill informed buyers as possible. It's the exact same strategy used by many other less credible sellers that want business people to believe in fantasy. Sure, this solution may be just right for some business people, but for most, it's a lesson in futility.

So what really happens when business people fall for this hoax? First, it sets them up for believing that they can have a quick, easy web site that will be instantly ranked by search engines and drive ready to buy customers right to their virtual door. When it doesn't work, they are pre-conditioned to think real web pros should work for similar rates. Yeah, right! Uh, huh.

OK, I realize the members here all know better, but I thought it would make an interesting discussion, and hopefully serve as a good resource for anyone who happens to breeze by here when they see it search results. The people selling these deals may not be outwardly lying, but they are very misleading.

This thread will have even greater value when the members here who don't do web design can have a say in how ridiculous it is to think a few hours of time and $5 a month is going to make you stand out when there are over 100 million web sites and growing (growing fast with deals like this too).

Spider
10-23-2009, 03:03 PM
I do not build websites for other people, paid or free, but I do build my own - 'cos I like to do so - it's fun!

I agree that building a worthwhile website is a lot more complicated than just slapping up a template, but for that to be true, one has to define "worthwhile." You CAN slap up a website using a free template and have a credible site, but the problem with that, as I see it, is getting much business from it via the search engines. That is the matter as I understand Steve's post.

OTOH, getting traffic from search engines is not the only use of a website. In 2009, having a website establishes a business in the same way a business was established by a shopfront and a sign in 1949. If one is going to get one's business from a narrow segment of your local community - for example, mothers of young children in a 20 mile radius - the website doesn't have to rank in the search engines, it just has to exist to give credibility to that business, as a means of communicating with existing customers. The only people who need to visit that website will be people who are given the URL during a face-to-face contact with the owner.

In that case, it sounds to me that the QuickBooks template site would be adequate for a lot of their customers. I do think selling the template as a means to untold riches through ecommerce is misleading, but those who are able to service such a vast business probably wouldn't be using Quickbooks, would they?

vangogh
10-23-2009, 04:00 PM
What bothers me about these kind of things isn't so much that they give a cheap site, but that they make so many promises about it that are completely false. They make it out to see like for the $5/month all your problems are solved in regards you your website until you approach someone who works on them for a living who then suggests rebuilding it from scratch.


If one is going to get one's business from a narrow segment of your local community - for example, mothers of young children in a 20 mile radius - the website doesn't have to rank in the search engines, it just has to exist to give credibility to that business, as a means of communicating with existing customers. The only people who need to visit that website will be people who are given the URL during a face-to-face contact with the owner.

That's not entirely true, which I'll get to in a second. I do agree with you that not every website needs to rank #1 for everything in a search engines. Search traffic is great traffic, but it's certainly not the only traffic and you can definitely have a successful business without it. And not every site exists for business anyway.

To your point I quoted above. I don't think it's ever true that even if your market comes from a 20 mile radius that you'll be able to meet everyone face-to-face. You might also be surprised at the number of people who take a URL and go to Google to type it in as opposed to their address bar. Also modern browsers now integrate search into the address bar, so unless you type the URL exactly you're probably getting search instead of going to the site.

Also consider the number of times people get a URL wrong. Take this forum. You could tell someone the URL and an hour later when they're home in front of their computer they could forget the dashes or type .com instead of .net. And what about all the people who pass your URL on to other people in your market. It doesn't take long before a close, but not quite right URL is getting passed around.

I'm not suggesting that you have to focus all your efforts on search, but I don't think it's realistic either to think that your entire market will always know your URL either.

Beyond the search question the kind of sites QuickBooks (and others) offer are often pretty bad sites to begin with. They don't consider the usability either. They're perfectly fine for personal use, but most businesses that use them will be asking a few months done the road why they don't make any sales. They give the impression that all you have to do is build it and not only will he come, but he'll hand over his credit card too, which I think we all know isn't true.

billbenson
10-23-2009, 04:58 PM
If one is going to get one's business from a narrow segment of your local community - for example, mothers of young children in a 20 mile radius - the website doesn't have to rank in the search engines, it just has to exist to give credibility to that business, as a means of communicating with existing customers. The only people who need to visit that website will be people who are given the URL during a face-to-face contact with the owner.

Spider, IMO that is only true if you don't use a website to get new business, but rather support your business. For example a dentist site. I've never been to a dentist that wasn't overbooked. They use the site for directions, Dr. credencials, etc. They don't really use it to bring in new customers because they are always booked.

Take huggy as an example of a local business. He benefits by a search for "town plumber". Restaurants the same thing. You can't do that on a free site. The 5 page dental site could do just fine with the site builders however.

On edit: The dentist could decide they want to make money on their site by selling products in 5 years. Can't do that with the site builder. You have to have a real, marketed site to make that change down the road. And that really doesn't cost a lot more upfront. I doubt VG would charge a fortune for a wordpress 5 page site that could be changed into a marketing site down the road.

vangogh
10-23-2009, 11:15 PM
that is only true if you don't use a website to get new business, but rather support your business

I shouldn't speak for him, but I think that's how Frederick meant it. If I'm not mistaken he was thinking of businesses that don't see the site as lead generation, but rather as support for an existing business.

Even in that case I do think it makes sense to allow your site to be lead generation too. You never know who out there might be interested in what you have to offer.

billbenson
10-23-2009, 11:59 PM
I shouldn't speak for him, but I think that's how Frederick meant it. If I'm not mistaken he was thinking of businesses that don't see the site as lead generation, but rather as support for an existing business.

Even in that case I do think it makes sense to allow your site to be lead generation too. You never know who out there might be interested in what you have to offer.

Several years ago I was talking with the ex president (retired) of a company I worked for. He was married to a dentist. He didn't see the value of a website, but ran multimillion dollar companies in silicon valley for most of his career. He was proud of his wifes dental site which cost several hundred dollars. He ran companies that had tech writers, product managers, large marketing and sales budgets. He's only about 60. He doesn't get web marketing and is someone who should see the value in it. I just checked and his site is on a subdomain of the local ISP.

The people that really should see the value and understand to a degree how to do internet marketing are pretty rare. I don't think MBA's get any classes in it either.

For me, I view this as an incredible opportunity for me. When very few competent marketing managers and on up the ladder don't understand it, it gives some schmuck like me a great edge up in selling on line.

Harold Mansfield
10-24-2009, 01:56 PM
I actually saw the Intuit commercial this morning pitching the site builder and it is incredibly misleading.
From watching the sales pitch one would assume that building a site and getting it found in the search engines is as easy as 1,2,3. They even show the first page of the SERP's as if that's where your site will be instantly.

I was actually really surprised that such a reputable company would be that misleading.

I can see how anyone that doesn't know any better, and trust the rep of Intuit would think that they have somehow automated building a website and SEO all in one..in fact most people who would try it, probably have no idea what SEO is and what it means to positioning of their website.

As Fredrick pointed out, it may not be such a bad solution if all you need is a landing page with your company contact information, but as far as a real website solution that is both functional as your web presence, and captures leads...it cannot be automated..it needs the touch of a real person who knows how the web works and how to apply it to your business.

Building a good web presence starts from the beginning...from choosing a domain and is personal to each individual business. You can't automate that with cookie cutter templates, nor can they possibly guide you through the best way to organize your content, and navigation to get the most benefit in the SERP's.

In order for them to work effectively (if design is not important) is for the person using them to know something about the web, and if they knew something about the web and how things work, they wouldn't use a site builder...they would either learn, or hire someone.

The commercial seems to play a very common fear that so many people have, that web professionals are either shady, or you are at their mercy and have no control over your project and if you use a web designer, you will get less than desirable results, which is funny because in truth, it's the other way around...automated site builders usually leave people with less than desirable results....certainly not the kind of websites, and SER's that their competitors have.

vangogh
10-24-2009, 03:02 PM
The commercial seems to play a very common fear that so many people have, that web professionals are either shady, or you are at their mercy and have no control over your project and if you use a web designer, you will get less than desirable results, which is funny because in truth, it's the other way around...automated site builders usually leave people with less than desirable results....certainly not the kind of websites, and SER's that their competitors have.

True. They also play on people's desire to get something for nothing. By making it sound so easy they imply that all you need to do is call them and pay your $5/month and you'll be raking in the dough in no time.

It does bother me that ads like this and the inevitability of them not working as promised end up damaging the reputation of both the web design and seo professions.

billbenson
10-24-2009, 03:48 PM
Its probably worth defining what a site builder or free site is and what its limitations are.

First a few definitions:


Domain - this is your address on the web. Just like 547 Oak Street, Milpitas CA but on the web. It is where your site lives.

Subdomain - This is really just a folder on the regular domain. Its kind of like renting a room at the Oak Street address. You can use it, but its not yours and you have limited control over it. It will be displayed in your internet browser (Internet Explorer or others) as ww.subdomain.domain.com (three w at the begining )

Webhost - This is where the software for websites is. It is simply a computer(s) that are connected to the internet and set up to present your website information when asked by the internet.

Website - This includes a domain + hosting + files and photos that are displayed on the internet.

Site Builder - This is software that makes it easy to build a simple website.

Site Builder Site - This is a site that has site builder software and provides you a subdomain on their site.


limitations of site builder sites


The most important thing to know is you don't own the domain. It is a subdomain on someone elses domain. In the subdomain definition above it was a rented room at the oak street address. The home owners (domain owners) can tell you what time you need to be home, don't watch tv after 8 etc., because they owne it. A subdomain (site builder site) is the same. They control what you can and can't do, and frequently won't let you be able to move your site to your domain. They restrict the access to your subdomain.

Free sites are just site builder sites with the domain owners advertisements on it.

Site builder sites are limited as to what you can do. You can't upload an email program or wordpress for example.

The URL is hard to remember ie ww.yourSubdominName.domain.com

SEO is extremely limited. If you want to place on the first page in Google, its possible, but will take a lot more work. By a lot more work I mean hundreds of hours or more.

The domain will look unprofessional to those that know (which may be more than you think). If someone doesn't have the money or knowledge to pay $5 a month to sell you a product, do you really trust them? A subdomain on someone elses site says AMATEUR.

These sites do have a place. Hobby or kid sites come to mind. They are frequently more expensive than a real site though, and with a decent tutorial most people should be able to put up a "real" site.


I'll post a step by step to getting started with a "real" site later.

billbenson
10-24-2009, 03:53 PM
It does bother me that ads like this and the inevitability of them not working as promised end up damaging the reputation of both the web design and seo professions.

Look at it differently VG. People fall for it, which is to bad, but they will. You can say "do you want a site that makes you money or another piece of junk"? It gives you the opportunity to sell them on a quality site. I'd say in your case it breeds opportunity if handled properly.

vangogh
10-24-2009, 04:25 PM
True. And I almost posted just that in my post above. In the end I don't really worry about it because there are enough people who do get to keep me and others in business. Plus I can develop my own sites that compete with the site builders and do better. So in the end it's not that big of a deal.

It bugs me though, because I (and others in the industry) inevitably have to answer questions we shouldn't have to. I think it also leads to some placing less value on what we do. "Why do you cost $x when I can get a site over there for $5 a month?" I have an answer for those people and know it's probably best to simply move on to the next prospect. It does get tiring answering the questions though.

By the way great post above with all the definitions. Maybe I should pull the post out and move it into its own thread, possibly even a sticky. It does fit well in this thread too. Thoughts?

billbenson
10-24-2009, 04:50 PM
Why don't you see where this thread goes and put selected posts into a sticky?

cbscreative
10-24-2009, 05:51 PM
I was actually really surprised that such a reputable company would be that misleading.

My thoughts exactly! And also the reason for the thread and even going so far as to name them.

I especially had to crack a smile at vangogh's statement about customers coming to you after a few months wondering why this system doesn't work. That's just what happened, but it was a year. Basically, no sales and the site is buried on page 5 AFTER you go to the local results. It's nowhere to be found when just using the city in your search term.

I think this one will be just like vangogh said though. Even though it's a referral, moving on seems more likely than getting the job based on the feedback I got. The die is cast. The $5 a month mentality is already hardened, and it's just a game of answering the old worn out questions without much chance that the answers will make much difference.

It's a shame that a company with a strong reputation among small business people would stoop to this level. Will they sell thousands of subscriptions? Oh yeah. Will it hurt reputable web designers? Maybe a little (there's always that "Well if Intuit is selling this, it must work" element to deal with). Overall, I think it provides even more opportunity for those who know better.

I'm not sure what to do about stickys, but this is a very relevant issue for us since we a small business forum. I share vangogh's take on this that by making false claims, it hurts the people who get stung because they have put their trust in this company.

I'd also say a kudos to bill for Post #9 above.

vangogh
10-24-2009, 06:17 PM
Makes sense to just let this thread go where it goes and decide later about a sticky.

Steve it doesn't surprise me how someone came to you after this system didn't work. Intuit is selling a promise, one that's not true, but one that people want to believe. And in fairness to many people, it's not as though most understand how search engines work and how pages end up ranking well.

There will always be enough people who do get to keep us in business and if no one out there gets in then we'll just design sites for ourselves and do better than the others.

Harold Mansfield
10-24-2009, 09:17 PM
I have actually used 2 different site builders in the past, 1and1 and Yahoo. At the time I didn't know anything and at first it's seems pretty cool "Hey I have a website!", but it only takes a week or 2 before you realize that "Hey, I have a crappy website" and you can't do anything to change it.

From what I have seen, it doesn't seem that they have really come all that far since a few years ago, they are still just as boring and limited as they were back then.

It is also important to notice that the site builder seems to be a loss leader to sell other products like Stationary, Calenders, Business Cards, Credit Card Processing, Checks, Tax and Payroll Services, Domain Registration, and in the case of the Intuit site builder, SEO services which basically amount to everything that you can do for free (and not much of it) for an additional ongoing monthly fee..and it's basically a search engine submission service.

Like I said, if you don't know any better, I can see people falling for it. They make it look easy..but we all know that there is nothing easy about the web.

vangogh
10-24-2009, 10:02 PM
It is also important to notice that the site builder seems to be a loss leader to sell other products like Stationary, Calenders, Business Cards, Credit Card Processing, Checks, Tax and Payroll Services, Domain Registration, and in the case of the Intuit site builder, SEO services which basically amount to everything that you can do for free (and not much of it) for an additional ongoing monthly fee..and it's basically a search engine submission service.

Yep. Think about it. None of the sites we're talking about are in the business of web design/development. Take Website Tonight for example. It's a way to sell hosting and a domain for GoDaddy. Pretty much the same thing for Yahoo. They do at least offer the shopping cart.

They all make it easy for you to have a website for business. What they don't tell you is they also limit how far you can go with the site and it's not all that far.

These things are perfectly fine for a personal website, though even then I'd think WordPress.org or Blogger are better options.

billbenson
10-25-2009, 02:51 AM
Getting Started with your web site step by step.

This really is simple, but where a lot of people have problems. There are plenty of mistakes you can make in the beginning that can cost you money and inhibit the performance of your web site down the road. The wrong mistakes could keep you from appearing in the search engines, which in most cases is where most of your buyers or visitors will come from.

This post is not intended to tell you how to start a site that performs well, it is just to get you started on the right track avoiding mistakes that many of us have made including myself. This is an area that can be done many different ways, but this will work and get you started.


Register a domain at Godaddy.com. Do not buy anything else but a domain for about $10. Godaddy is a good domain registrar, but not great for hosting. They have 24/7 phone support as well. You can search for domain names you like there and buy one you like and nothing else. Again, if you see a cart for more than $10, you bought something you don't want. You are buying a domain for 1 year of use at that price. I think the default is 2 years on the site for approx $20. Thats ok as well

Next, get web hosting. You want hosting with telephone support when you are first starting. When you get some knowledge under your belt, you may find you don't need telephone support and email is fine. Initially, you want telephone support.

Here is an important point. Never host your site at the same place you register it. There are a lot of scams involving this. It's just good practice.


Can someone give me a good host with shared hosting and phone support I can insert in this post.


Once you get the hosting set up, your host will send you an email with your site access information. This will include the user name and password for your control panel. It will also include your control panel url and your ftp IP or URL. Lastly, it will give you the domain names of the name servers for your site. These are important. Save them or the email.

Next, email godaddy and ask them to change your name servers to the ones your web host gave you.


Once you have done the above, you have a space on the web that you can do anything with. That means you have a place on the web for your professional web site. I'll post some options on how to put your web site there in my next post.

Spider
10-25-2009, 09:10 AM
[B]...Here is an important point. Never host your site at the same place you register it. There are a lot of scams involving this. It's just good practice... Could you explain why hosting and registering at the same company is not a good idea. I have all of my sites registered with Directnic and have found them very good. Most of my sites are also hosted by them and I have had no problems doing this. Minor difficulties have occurred over the years, of course, (infrequently, though) and Directnic has been very responsive, with problems solved promptly and efficiently. Why is this 'not good practice'?

Harold Mansfield
10-25-2009, 11:13 AM
Personally I don't have any rhyme or reason for it, but I just feel more comfortable registering my domains with a separate company than the one that I have hosting with.

I think my host is a very capable registrar, and my registrar seems to be a very capable host, but I rather stay within the specialty of each company.

Besides, my registrar uses the same company for hosting as I do, so why not just go to the source.

Also my host charges slightly more for domain registration, and my registrar doesn't offer the same packages as my hosting company.

I think my host is a registrar affiliate, and my registrar is a hosting affiliate.

billbenson
10-25-2009, 02:46 PM
1 and 1 and Network Solutions, two of the largest hosts as well as a number of other hosts used to not allow your domain to be moved to another host. First, you didn't have access via their site to change the nameservers. When you called them and asked them to change the name servers they would put you on eternal hold. This prevented you from moving your site to a different host. Domain squatting.

These companies are also known for buying domains you search for and sitting on them. This can happen at Godaddy as well. If you see a domain you like, register it right away or it may not be available.

A friend abandoned two domains because both Network Solutions and 1 & 1 did the trick in paragraph 1 to him. If you do a search for Network Solutions scam you will find this happens to a lot of people.

Godaddy is a quality domain registrar. There are others as well. They give you 100% access to the control of your domain online. If you want to move a domain somewhere else, you go online, unlock your domain, and the company you are moving it to can do it.

Spider, you probably will have no problems. Having said that, a lot of hosts get sold. The way they do business could change.

The way I suggested should prevent any of this from happening. It doesn't have to be Godaddy, but do some research for a "good" domain registrar before using them.

In my post above, I'm trying to make things as simple as possible, so I'm saying which registrar and host to use. It doesn't need to be these. The post is intended to be easy as possible instructions.

cbscreative
10-25-2009, 04:16 PM
Could you explain why hosting and registering at the same company is not a good idea. I have all of my sites registered with Directnic and have found them very good. Most of my sites are also hosted by them and I have had no problems doing this. Minor difficulties have occurred over the years, of course, (infrequently, though) and Directnic has been very responsive, with problems solved promptly and efficiently. Why is this 'not good practice'?

You may never have problems, and hopefully you won't. But following bill's advice is good insurance. His point about hosts being sold or changing their business (including letting customer service slip) is very real. By NOT having both your hosting and domain registration with the same company, you circumvent the potential for problems.

I agree fully with bill's advice. It's just a good rule of thumb even if you never have problems. The fact that scams are done through the "convenience" of having the same company provide both is reason enough to simplify the matter by advising against doing it. It's not that every one is a scam or it's inherently bad. But avoiding the potential is a good safeguard.

justifystudios
10-25-2009, 06:51 PM
We actually just posted a blog post about this:



Get a FREE Website and Get Found by Customers!
Catchy title, huh? As web professionals, we here at Justify keep keep a close eye on the web design and development industry, not just in our home in Indiana, but nationwide. This weekend, Intuit, the company popular for their QuickBooks and Quicken financial software, started hawking their “Free Website” design service to people.

Take a look, we’ll wait: Intuit® | Website Building Software & Website Design (http://www.intuit.com/website-building-software/)

Their claim is really dangerous. What happens when people start using this service with the hope and intent of creating a blockbuster business that everyone can find? There’s only so many spots on a Google search page, they can’t promise that everyone makes it to the top, but that’s what they’re doing.

Quite simply, this is a way for Intuit to suck $5 a month out of people without educating them about what they’re missing out on. What happens when your site goes down? What happens when a competitor pops up a similar site with the EXACT same template as your site? What happens if someone reports your site for slander and Intuit just wipes your website off the face of the Internet all willy-nilly?

When you sign up with a service like Intuit’s or with some other generic template you rob your business of the nimbleness required to be competitive online. If you have a template you bought online somewhere, there’s a good chance thousands of other people have the same site design. Would you buy something from a company that looked identical to another? Where’s the character in that?

Intuit’s endeavor isn’t new. We all remember AngelFire, Tripod, GeoCities and the like. And you know what? GeoCities is biting the dust after finally realizing they’re a relic of the web.

Don’t be a relic. Be remarkable.

Harold Mansfield
10-26-2009, 03:59 PM
1 and 1 and Network Solutions, two of the largest hosts as well as a number of other hosts used to not allow your domain to be moved to another host. First, you didn't have access via their site to change the nameservers. When you called them and asked them to change the name servers they would put you on eternal hold. This prevented you from moving your site to a different host. Domain squatting.

These companies are also known for buying domains you search for and sitting on them. This can happen at Godaddy as well. If you see a domain you like, register it right away or it may not be available.

A friend abandoned two domains because both Network Solutions and 1 & 1 did the trick in paragraph 1 to him. If you do a search for Network Solutions scam you will find this happens to a lot of people.


I have heard this for years, Also if I remember correctly, when using some site builders, if you decide that you want to move your domain to a new host, there is a charge almost like taking you phone number with you to a new service provider, if they allow you to do it at all.

Many times, there is a special like free domain registration (or cheap) to entice you to sign up for the service.
Check the fine print, your domain may only be accessible to you as long as you stay with the service. IOW, they are letting you use it and have registered it on your behalf to use with their service. If that is the case, you will have to buy your domain from them at what ever price they set in order to have control over it and move it.

This is also a common tactic with unscrupulous web designers that offer free domain registration if they build and host your website. If you are ever unhappy with their service and want to move, they will hold your domain hostage for a fee to transfer it over to you.

Note: Just for the record. I offer free domain registration with my Start Up package special, but it's more of a rebate. I always suggest that people register their own domains in their own names. NEVER, let someone register it for you in their name. You won't own it, or have access to it...unless you trust your service provider to do all of the leg work and transfer the domain over to you in your name, which any good service provider will do without a hassle.
Still, it's always best to register your own, and keep your own account with what ever registrar you choose.

vangogh
10-26-2009, 04:39 PM
Some of the idea behind different companies for hosting and domain registration is akin to not putting all your eggs in one basket. If you're having a problem with your web host and want to move your site, you'd rather not have to deal with them as a registrar too.

Some of the advice goes to dealing with reseller hosts. They may have a form to register a domain, but sometimes the domain is tied to your hosting and the reseller actually ends up owning the domain.

It's probably not as big a deal to keep both separate as it was a few years ago, but sometimes it really is best not to put all those eggs in the same basket just in case.