considering changing my concept on small jobs

[huggytree]

I used to give small jobs away...i have to charge alot and still dont think i really make very much...its kind of a lose/lose situation....i have to take them because of the economy and ive found small jobs lead to larger ones...

Anything under $1k i dont bid on...i either flat rate it or say T&M $155 min for the first hour and $100 after that.....there is no way to flat rate alot of things because the homeowners cant discribe them correctly over the phone...most people say 'no thanks' to the $155 1st hour....its not out of line at all .....this T&M works just fine for me, but i dont know how well it works for the homeowners....i dont think it works well being openended.

Im considering charging a $55 trip charge or estimate fee to look the job over and give an estimate right on the spot...then offer to do the job right there on the spot.....this way they know what their getting into and the $55 can be deducted from the job if they say yes.....problem....if they say no and ive alotted 2 hours for the job what do i do?...next problem $55 may be too much for an estimate in most peoples mind....i need to hire the local flat rate plumbing shop to work on my house to find out how they do this....its based on the concept that people dont want to lose the trip charge credit...kind of like a monkey trap.

[Evan]

I think "free estimates" are the big thing these days and people are not going to pay anything for your time to make an estimate. It's a cost of doing business, and if you want it, then you have to suck up the time. Add the time to your estimate if you want, or bump up your rate if it really is bothering you. But if your rates aren't comparable, then you'll be losing a lot of time doing estimates for people that will think you're out of the ballpark.

[vangogh]

its kind of a lose/lose situation

If that's really the case then, bad economy or not, you shouldn't be taking these jobs. If you did see a win in there, such as the possibility of leading to bigger jobs then it could make sense to take the small jobs. But if it's really lose/lose you're best to avoid them. If the win is only the possibility of bigger jobs you might also want to look at small jobs as a marketing opportunity. In that case you may find it's still beneficial overall to lose something on each individual job if the net result of all of them is good profit on the bigger jobs.

As a customer I don't think it's unreasonable to charge something for the trip, however you would need to be able to give me a rough idea of what you think things will cost over the phone. I would never agree to pay for your house call if you're unwilling to give me any idea of what the job might cost. Also if you're charging for the visit and the guy next in line in the phone book isn't, I'm probably having him come to my house.

I understand the issue from your side, but you also have to see things from the customer side as well. As a customer I don't really care what your costs are. I'm concerned with how much it will cost me.

[huggytree]

if i go to bid on every small job id have to double my office time and would be uncompetitive....anything under $1k is the rule of thumb i use.

im just trying to think of a different idea....i know 2 large flat rate/service shops who do charge......and they do alot of work....they are based on the idea of people paying $25(or something like that) to come out and look. then the homeowner hiring them on the spot, so they dont lose that $25 credit....im just trying to copy something that does work....what im doing works for me so i dont lose money, but homeowner who dont know me are wary....i atleast break even and get my card and name out there to 1 more customer.

[Evan]

Huggy,

I'm not sure what the "standard" is in your area. If it is customary to charge for a quote, go ahead. I'm just used to many businesses where they want a "free quote".

Certainly as an accountant, we also provide quotes. "What does it cost to do a tax return?" Well, having one W2 and being single is one thing. Having 5 kids, and a business that you don't keep track of income/expenses except for this shoe box... you're going to look at two different amounts.

Then again, I won't do shoe boxes.

[Spider]

I think it's about time Waukesha Plumbing makes up its mind what business it's in! Either it is a small time jobbing plumber that does what small time jobbing plumbers do, or it is a sizeable plumber "in the making" taking sizeable contracts. There is a different approach to the job depending on the size of job that the company does. There is a different mental attitude that goes along with that.

Just as is being pointed out constantly in these forum regarding websites - that you cannot be all things to all people - so it is in other walks of life.

If you are a small time jobbing plumber, stop approaching contractors for sizeable contract work and focus on homeowners. If you are a sizeable contract plumber in the making, focus on contractors who can give you sizeable contracts and stop approaching homeowners for these little jobs.

Once the decision is made, you will be able to establish a company policy and standard procedures for all these things. That will allow you to grow your business to be the sort of company you want it to become.

[Spider]

...Then again, I won't do shoe boxes.That's the sort of thing I mean.

[huggytree]

getting into service is whats made this year more successful..

if times were good would i do small jobs? no

but there not, so i need to do them....i can make a full day of 3-4 small jobs...i will make 1/2 of what i would on a large job, but 1/2 is better than 0..

i do mainly focus on large residential jobs for builders/remodelers and thats whats keeping me going right now..the small jobs & homeowner jobs have been completely dead now for 8 weeks.

just looking for different idea's and i know ive done this subject in various forms on this website almost monthly now for a year...when i start to slow down i try to think of new idea's and come back to the same thing.

[Patrysha]

But I don't recall that you have a marketing geared website or that you've been doing much publicity seeking this year (I remember you did last year)...there are so many inexpensive things you could be doing to get in front of potential customers. I know you do the postcard and/or flier campaigns and are big on signage and uniform. You've got some great things going on...

So why not just decide who your customers are going to be and hire someone to get the phones ringing for you by finding the right marketing help.

There's at least four people on the forum I can think of off the top of my head...though I don't know their rates...

[Steve B]

I guess it depends where you live - but, there isn't a single service based business around here that charges for an estimate. I do almost all of mine over the phone - but, I'm sure that wouldn't be so easy in plumbing.

Based on your hourly rates that you already charge, you should be willing to waste a bit of time in order to land a few jobs. I also suspect you could get much better at bidding over the phone if you accepted you might "win" on some jobs and "lose" on others, but they will average out. You just can't over react the first time you have to stumble around in a messy basement because the next job everything might go extra smoothly.

[vangogh]

I think it's about time Waukesha Plumbing makes up its mind what business it's in! Either it is a small time jobbing plumber that does what small time jobbing plumbers do, or it is a sizeable plumber "in the making" taking sizeable contracts.

huggy, I'm 100% in agreement with Frederick here. This isn't just coming from this thread, but from what I see running through many of your threads. You've mentioned a lot how you see yourself as working on the high end. Higher end jobs and with contractors over homeowners. I realize you're taking smaller jobs this year because of the economy, but that goes against your brand. It goes against who you see yourself as.

Like Frederick said there's a different approach you need to take with each in order to be successful. Again I understand if the economy was better you wouldn't be taking on so many smaller jobs, but the more work you're putting into the smaller jobs the more time you're not spending working to get the higher end contracts.

[huggytree]

Ive been finding the high end is getting cheap lately..just had a high end builder get 5 estimates for plumbing...went with the cheapest even though my bid was #2 and had $500 worth of extra quality items in it..they didnt care.

Other high end builders ive worked with havent built a house in 2009...they are dead or out of business.

My high end customer base has almost dissapeared....i would describe my current customer base as mid-grade and wants the best Value. I only have 1 high end builder who sends me work regularly....and i lost the last job by $2k (he admitted that the low bid will lose money & made a mistake)....i still have him and have the next project.

Patrisha what are your idea's for extra advertising? i thought i was doing everything i could!

im always interested in new idea's

My website was redone 9 months ago and is first on Google...i get 1 job a year from it..maybe 2...maybe 10 e-mails from it total...mostly price shoppers. tankless water heaters probably makes up atleast 6 of them.(no one buys them)

[Patrysha]

My website was redone 9 months ago and is first on Google...i get 1 job a year from it..maybe 2...maybe 10 e-mails from it total...mostly price shoppers. tankless water heaters probably makes up atleast 6 of them.(no one buys them)

First for what keywords? Are ppl finding you with those keywords?

Really, no tankless water heater sales? Those are selling well here - we're saving for one (and praying that our current tank holds up through the savings process it is quite a jump) and most ppl with $ looking at renos or upgrades are looking at them amongst my friends and family.

I'm in a rush to go and get Small Business Week under way here...but will try and come back with ideas later. Of course, you can always see if any of the seminars I'm doing this week are at a time you can attend and drop in on me online :-)

[Paper Shredder Clay]

I agree, I wouldn't be happy at all with a $55 fee for an estimate. The estimate is a sales pitch not a way to make money.


I used to give small jobs away...i have to charge alot and still dont think i really make very much...its kind of a lose/lose situation....i have to take them because of the economy and ive found small jobs lead to larger ones...

Anything under $1k i dont bid on...i either flat rate it or say T&M $155 min for the first hour and $100 after that.....there is no way to flat rate alot of things because the homeowners cant discribe them correctly over the phone...most people say 'no thanks' to the $155 1st hour....its not out of line at all .....this T&M works just fine for me, but i dont know how well it works for the homeowners....i dont think it works well being openended.

Im considering charging a $55 trip charge or estimate fee to look the job over and give an estimate right on the spot...then offer to do the job right there on the spot.....this way they know what their getting into and the $55 can be deducted from the job if they say yes.....problem....if they say no and ive alotted 2 hours for the job what do i do?...next problem $55 may be too much for an estimate in most peoples mind....i need to hire the local flat rate plumbing shop to work on my house to find out how they do this....its based on the concept that people dont want to lose the trip charge credit...kind of like a monkey trap.

[vangogh]

first on Google...i get 1 job a year from it..maybe 2...maybe 10 e-mails from it total

I'll ask the same question as Patrysha. For what? Being first isn't what it's all about. Do you know how much traffic the site gets? If the site isn't getting much traffic from search engines then you probably aren't ranking well for the right words and phrases. If you are getting traffic, but aren't getting contacts then it's probably the site itself that's underperforming.

[huggytree]

i used the website designer that all the builder & construction guys use...the specialize in the trades.....we discussed keywords over and over....

i named my company Waukesha Plumbing because of my website....my city and county is Waukesha....type in Waukesha Plumber or Plumbing Waukesha and im right there.

what other keywords would you use when shopping for a plumber?

water heater i guess

Patrisha, Noritz & Rinnai tankless heaters are $3k+ installed....i have tried and tried, but cant sell one....other guys are installing cut rate units to bring the prices closer to $2,300....i dont want to sell cut rate...how much and what brands are selling in your area?

[huggytree]

my national plumbing magazine came in the mail today and discussed being a plumber in more than 1 catagory...it discussed the differences between being a newhome/remodel plumber vs a service guy.....everything made alot of sense and it discussed the problems associated... if i spend all day chasing 1 hour jobs im taking away from the 8 hour jobs that im on...causing me to leave 1-2 hours early to go to them every day and extra phone time....they recommend having 2 divisions....cant do it now and probably never will

I still have to take the work because of the economy, but ill try to stop thinking about ways to improve my service call %'s.....

[Patrysha]

what other keywords would you use when shopping for a plumber?

sink, tub, faucet, washroom renovations, kitchen renovations, laundry room renovations, fixing leaky faucets...



Patrisha, Noritz & Rinnai tankless heaters are $3k+ installed....i have tried and tried, but cant sell one....other guys are installing cut rate units to bring the prices closer to $2,300....i dont want to sell cut rate...how much and what brands are selling in your area?

No idea really on brands and what is selling. I asked the plumbing supplier about them at the last trade show - they had one there. They asked a few questions and estimated it would be about $2700 installed. We need a new water heater, sooner rather than later, but we also need to refloor the whole main room of the basement...so we're trying to hold off until we can afford to do it all in one shot and get what we really want (including a basement sauna I hope)...we can likely pull off a regular water heater if we have to, but not the tankless one.

[vangogh]

i used the website designer that all the builder & construction guys use

So you all have essentially the same site. The same things your designer used to get you to rank for certain keywords your designer also used to rank the same keywords for your competitor sites.


i named my company Waukesha Plumbing because of my website....my city and county is Waukesha....type in Waukesha Plumber or Plumbing Waukesha and im right there.

That's actually a great choice. Odds are the main keyword someone is going to type looking for you is waukesha plumbing and you do rank well for that phrase.

However for phrases that mention a location like Waukesha Google shows their local results from Google Maps above the general results. You naturally rank #1 and #2 for waukesha plumbing and you're #3 and #4 for waukesha plumber. In both cases though, there are 10 local listings above you. I did see you have a listing with Google Maps/Local, but it appears a few pages back. You want to get that listing in the top 10.

Ask your customers to give you a review. I think more reviews helps improve the listing. You should also try to get local sites (Chamber of Commerce, any site in Waukesha) to link to your site.


what other keywords would you use when shopping for a plumber?

See Patrysha's response above. Some people will type plumber or plumbing. Others will type in the name of the thing giving them a problem. Some people might type around the problem they're having. The more your site shows up for in results, the better.

If I wrap quotes around "wakesha plumber" I don't see your site listed in the top 100 results. Odds are us you haven't used the exact phrase "waukesha plumber" to any pages of your site. If you could rewrite the copy of one page to include it a time or two you probably would rank #1 again. It's possible many people in your area use the quotes. Maybe not, but some absolutely will.

People use a large variety of phrases when searching for the same thing. About 50% of all search queries in a given month are unique. Part of what you want to do is think of as many possible words as you can related to plumbing in some way. There are tools to estimate how often phrases around all those words are searched and you can pick and choose more phrases to target.

I don't expect you'll have time on your own to do that. It's not hard, though it is tedious. Just letting you know it's something that can be done.

Do you have any kind of analytics installed so you can measure how many people visit the site? Google analytics is free and relatively easy to add to your site. That could tell you whether you don't get enough traffic or you do get enough traffic, but the site isn't turning those visitors into leads. Maybe the copy could be improved in that case.

[Spider]

This talk of website and ranking search terms is, I think, premature. If homeowners are not to be pursued because a decision is made to become a large-project plumbing contractor, the search terms suggested so far will not apply. In fact, traffic to the website will be immaterial, because contracts are more likely to be obtained by face-to-face networking.

Only if the decision has been made to become a profitable small time jobbing plumber will the website be a "work-creation" device. And then the range of search terms that homeowners are likely to search for be relevant.

This is yet another example of the different thinking and different mindset that these two types of businesses demand.

I'm not saying one is better than the other - only that they are different. There are many reasons in favor of being a one- or two-man household service plumber, and there are different reasons for opting to become a large-project-only plumbing contractor.

One just has to make the decision and plan for and work towards attaining that goal.

But that decision comes before anything else can be decided.

[vangogh]

I agree that's the first decision that needs to be made. The website and search talk cropped up simply because huggy mentioned his site and his ranking and we responded.

In order to do the site and SEO effectively huggy would first need to decide which way his business is going in order to tailor both the site and the marketing toward that business model.

Everything else is going to follow from that decision so it really needs to be the first decision made and once decided there's no looking back and changing your mind.

[huggytree]

I will always need small jobs for filler....and homeowner also can give me large projects.

bath tub replacments is one of my favorites....very good profit and a nice short 5-6 hour day!

[handprop]

Huggy.....I was looking for a phone number for a fella on Google when this forum showed up. I was curious so I snooped around and saw this post.

I don't have much time for this sort of thing any more but when I read it I couldn't help myself so I joined up and have some advice.

I went to your website and saw a very common mistake with many websites....you have no offer!!!!

Any good marketer knows the value of a good offer and what it can do. If you were a customer and you came to your site what would you see????

What I see, and what customers see is..blah..blah..blah..blah..blah..blah..blah..blah ..blah..blah..blah..blah..blah..blah..blah..blah.. blah..blah..blah..blah..blah..blah..

I'm not trying to be mean or anything but just think about it for a moment. Does a stranger want you to list what you do? NO....people know what plumbers do for a living you don't have to tell them. Instead erase all the garbage on the front page and make a great offer.

Think about it this way, if you grab the Milwaukee yellow pages and just open it up you will see ton's of different people advertising the same thing right. OK, what makes a stranger call the one ad out of twenty?????? It's not the color or anything like that.....IT"S THE OFFER.

You need to give them a reason and make them want to call you, and just giving them info that they already know is novice at best. People don't want or care about the information you are providing on the front page.

Does this make any sense???? I'm trying not to be hard on you but sometimes it's just best to say it flat out.

So the new question it what do you offer that others don't???? If you can't think of any then spend some time thinking about it.

Like I say I don't have a ton of time to devote to forums but I hate to see you suffer. I own several businesses and I can promise you that if you can come up with great offers and develope a system of tracking response you will experience a whole new dynamic in marketing.

If you have any questions I would be happy to give you a few tips. By the way, i'm a master plumber and live in Wisconsin.

Mike

[Spider]

Good post, Mike.

(Rushes over to one's own site to see if I have a stand-out offer!!!)

[handprop]

When I clicked on the link the page that displayed had no offer. That's not to say it's a bad website or business and it's not my intention to say so. Instead i'll offer a couple remarks. One thing I liked right off the bat is you had a photo of you and it's in the right spot. People read left to right and the human eye always starts out in the upper left corner so that's great. A photo also humanizes the experience and is a great way to show people it's not a computer there readiing but an actual person. Human emotion is the cornerstone of great marketing so I smiled when I saw that.:)

But I still see no offer. If you do have an offer then I ask you "how strong is the offer"? See what i'm getting at? Can a business work without a strong offer? Of course, and I bet you have a good business, but to answer the question I still have to ask "what is the offer". The only reason I ask this is because i'm never interested in "just having a business" but instead i'm interested in maximizing potential.

Think of it this way, a website (which is not usually the best marketing delivery vehicle) is a blank page. And it's in this blank page that the opportunity is available to market a product or service. Looking at your page I would try and create a great offer and deliver the offer in a great headline. Measuring results will tell you how good the offer is. I could write for weeks on just this subject but I think you understand where I'm coming from.

Mike

[vangogh]

Great post(s) Mike. Welcome to the forum too by the way. I'm glad you found the time to post.

Like Frederick I'm wondering if I have a specific offer on my site. I don't think I do. I only need so much business through my current site though so it's more a low pressure kind of sales thing. I'm working on another site that will have offers like you mention.


What I see, and what customers see is..blah..blah..blah..blah..blah..blah..blah..blah ..blah..blah..blah..blah..blah..blah..blah..blah.. blah..blah..blah..blah..blah..blah..

That seems to be true of far too many sites. I think many people assume since they can type a sentence they can write copy for their site and it just isn't so. It's always easy to talk about yourself so that's what people do, but as you point out visitors to your site don't really care about you. They care about how you can help them with their problem. The focus of your copy needs to be on the visitor and what benefits they'll get by hiring or buying from you.

[handprop]

You are correct Vangogh and raise some other points worth exploring. I work for political campaigns doing strategy and right now I have to go through a couple hundred emails before 7:00, but I should have some time tonight to further discuss this topic.

Mike

[Spider]

On looking at my home page in this fashion I realize that I do not have an offer - I have a suggesstion. Not the same thing, is it?! I am working on changing that right now. Hopefully by the time you return, Mike, I would have made some changes.

Actually, it's not as easy as might be thought. I think there is a tendency to not want to appear to be bragging or too full of oneself. Perhaps Dave had the same difficulty with his site. It's all very well thinking we are very good at what we do - it's not always easy to say that modestly. In any case, Modesty is probably a killer to sales copy.

[handprop]

Your right, it's not easy.....in fact it really hard.:) That's why I use a system to all my marketing, and the offer is no different. But remember something important, it's a two part deal! First thing is to write a list of ten of the best offers you can come up with and then pick the strongest one. The stronger the offer the better the results.

Once the offer is developed you must then write a headline. People can have a hard time with this, me included. I have written thousands of headlines and every one was difficult. But your on the right track, just a little tweaking here and there and before you know it you can have something rock solid.

This is just the starting point though!!!!! To really benefit from good marketing a system has to be followed. It's not as complicated as it sounds, the good news is new marketing tricks don't exist, there are no secrets to marketing, our best friend is called "the past" and all we need to do is put proven methods into action.

An important note about headlines: Say the word headline and the first thing people think is "newspaper" and nothing could be further from the truth.:eek:

In reality everything we do in business revolves around a headline and when ever I hear about a marketing effort gone bad I can usually trace it to a weak offer and ZERO headline.

The first lesson I explain to folks is marketing is best suited to a zero dollar budget! Sounds crazy but once again the truth is money is a poor substitute for poor marketing. A good headline is free and the rewards are ten-fold compared to money spend foolishly on piss poor marketing. But somehow people have become convinced that profits are related to dollars spent on marketing. Again, just the opposite is true. Coka-Cola is in the dollar business because they need to be to hold market share, but a small business just needs to develope a smart strategy designed around the customer......and sadly most business fail. Instead they just limp along and once in a while spend a lump of cash on marketing but to no avail........

One point that must be driven into peoples thick heads is marketing is a mathematical function just like accounting but it gets treated like a secondary function that gets used out of desperation.

Mike

[vangogh]

Most people don't seem to be all that concerned with marketing until they discover their business is making no money.

One thing I'd add to your above post is the idea of researching your market. Different people will respond to different things so know who your market is and what they respond to can help you choose the best offer and write the best headline. It can also help you tailor your product or service in the first place.

[huggytree]

by offer do you mean what makes you different?

Reliable, Honest and on time....those 3 things make me different...no one in construction is reliable and on time...no one.....im also painfully honest with people...

my front page discusses Quality also

I agree about the personal photo...its on my website, but on a different page.

Im trying my personal photo idea on my latest phone book ad....still waiting for a call from it.

[handprop]

OK, but all those items you list are the same as everybody. It means nothing!! Do you tell your kids not to swear or do you show them by example? Strangers don't buy into just words you have to show them.

Again, how is your website different than anybody elses??????

I have a little trick I do that helps me in the development stage and I have a good story about how I apply it. After all aplication is what really matters right? Advice is cheap so let me show you how to apply it. I'll work up a thread over in the marketing area and show you how we can take good sound marketing principals and put it into practice.

Mike

[handprop]

By the way...the phone book ad is only as strong as your offer!!!! A picture doesn't make stranger want to spend money.

Mike