Do you use Bitcoin or any Crypto Currency?

[Harold Mansfield]

I admit I was skeptical for a very long time especially after the Mt.Gox fiasco (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mt._Gox), but now that I've learned more about the tech and actually used it to buy things I see the possibilities.
The volatility bothers me, but had I learned more a few years back my couple hundred in bit coin would be work a little bit of money now.

I really dig the decentralization part, and the privacy aspects of using crypto. Not sure if Bitcoin itself will end up being the standard, but it looks really promising and exciting.

In case anyone needs to get up to speed, here's a quick video.


https://youtu.be/Um63OQz3bjo

Anyone here use or have any Bitcoin, or Ether?

[Owen]

I admit I was skeptical for a very long time especially after the Mt.Gox fiasco (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mt._Gox), but now that I've learned more about the tech and actually used it to buy things I see the possibilities.
The volatility bothers me, but had I learned more a few years back my couple hundred in bit coin would be work a little bit of money now.

I really dig the decentralization part, and the privacy aspects of using crypto. Not sure if Bitcoin itself will end up being the standard, but it looks really promising and exciting.

In case anyone needs to get up to speed, here's a quick video.


https://youtu.be/Um63OQz3bjo

Anyone here use or have any Bitcoin, or Ether?
I used an old computer to mine bitcoin a while ago and ran it for a week. That bitcoin I mined is worth $0.02, so you can say I'm rich.

[Harold Mansfield]

The value has been exploding the last few months. It's gotta bust soon and level out, right?

[Owen]

The value has been exploding the last few months. It's gotta bust soon and level out, right?i
No. Bitcoin is capped, so once that hits the cap it'll explode. I would buy now but I have no interest in Bitcoin right now.

[Harold Mansfield]

i
No. Bitcoin is capped, so once that hits the cap it'll explode. I would buy now but I have no interest in Bitcoin right now.
I know there's a coin limit, I'm talking about the value. It's swinging wildly up and down double digit percentage points. Up 921% in the last year. No that's not a typo.

[Bobjob]

I considered purchasing when it was in the 400s and I am kicking myself for not. No telling how high it can go. Crazy to consider buying at 7K a deal.

[Harold Mansfield]

I considered purchasing when it was in the 400s and I am kicking myself for not. No telling how high it can go. Crazy to consider buying at 7K a deal.

All the bitcoin people are saying it will go over $10k. As much as I believe in the tech, I just keep remembering when people were saying the same about Enron. the first tech bubble, and Mortgage backed securities. I'll keep a couple hundred spread around 2 or 3 different crypto currencies, but will probably not do any "investing".

[Paul]

I’m not so sure about crypto currencies. But I admit I don’t understand anything about the technology involved.

It seems to me like it is just a perceived value without a real underpinning of value. Although standard currency values are also somewhat perceived at least they can be measured against major global commodities one way or the other. A dollar or a Euro or a pound can all be measured against oil, gold, silver and agricultural and other commodities. I don’t know if Crypto can be measured that way.

It seems that if the users of Crypto lose faith the entire structure will crumble. I don’t see what else would support it. I could be VERY wrong on this.

[Harold Mansfield]

The value comes from the amount of money that people are putting into using bitcoin The financial players are in now. All the banks, the payment processors, investment houses. That's where the skyrocketing value comes from. People are using it and that number is growing. It's very prevalent around the world especially in Asia. I have a friend in Thailand right now and she's reported back that many of the stores (Like 7-11's) there take Bitcoin and Etherium and it's common.

As I said I'm not sure Bitcoin itself will be the standard but block chain technology itself is here to stay and is being used in a variety of applications already.

[Paul]

The idea that the value increases or decreases based on how many use it without some hard base value seems very shaky and easy to manipulate. It can probably crash as fast as it rises. It sounds a bit Ponzi, somebody, someday is going to be left holding the bag (of worthless bitcoins), in my humble opinion. Standard currencies can fluctuate, but not too dramatically, and are at least theoretically backed by the issuing government. Governments and central banks buy and sell their own currencies to maintain some reasonable stability.

Another question for me is more obvious; what’s the advantage of using crypto rather than a standard currency? It seems more like an electronic barter accounting system than an actual currency especially if it is only useable with someone else who uses it.

Overall it sounds like a fun “trading play” for a while but I don’t see the longer term benefits or value.

[Harold Mansfield]

I used to say all of those same things, and now I can hear myself sounding like others sounded when they kept trying to tell me to just learn something about it before you write it off like it's Amway or Herbalife.

The long term benefit of Bitcoin, Ether and the like is block chain technology. The ability to decentralize not just financial transactions and records but information in general. So that there is no single point of failure. So that it can't be controlled by one entity. So that thousands of millions of people are part of it, verify it, and support it, not just a few institutions who control all the access and make all the rules.

There's also the virtual anonymity of transactions, low or non existent fees.

If you're curious what all the hub bub is about, I'd recommend watching a few You Tube videos about it. Try and stay clear of all the get rich quick, invest in bitcoin type videos and seek out the ones that explain the technology and how it works for transactions. Just like everything new, there's a lot of bad info out there.

Here's a decent one that keeps it 100.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4g1XFU8Gto

[Harold Mansfield]

And here's one from IBM about Blockchain technology


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lD9KAnkZUjU

[Paul]

I did watch some vids before and just now watched the ones you posted. But it all leaves me with my same questions. Why would I use Crypto as opposed to dollars? To save a few pennies on online transaction fees? Why would I accept crypto as payment rather than dollars?

I don’t see its widespread usage as any real foundation for stable valuation. Trillions were in the stock and real estate markets when they crashed. Even with the underlying value of properties and operating companies the perception of value disintegrated right before our eyes.

So , for me, even if it works and becomes stable I still don’t see any significant benefit over standard currency. I guess I'm just not getting it!

[Harold Mansfield]

I did watch some vids before and just now watched the ones you posted. But it all leaves me with my same questions. Why would I use Crypto as opposed to dollars? To save a few pennies on online transaction fees? Why would I accept crypto as payment rather than dollars?

I don’t see its widespread usage as any real foundation for stable valuation. Trillions were in the stock and real estate markets when they crashed. Even with the underlying value of properties and operating companies the perception of value disintegrated right before our eyes.

So , for me, even if it works and becomes stable I still don’t see any significant benefit over standard currency. I guess I'm just not getting it!

It's probably just not for you right now,. Maybe never. But for the sake of the conversation there are real world applications that are already making people's lives better.

People in economically depressed areas who don't have access to banking, live in rural areas around the world, or people in our own country who can't get bank accounts now have a way to receive and transfer money without having to go through a bank and ask for approval, and permission, and be at the mercy of constant fees and rule changes.

Think about how many hands and approvals and percentage points a mortgage has to go through. Blockchain eliminates the need for all that, and it is more secure than writing a check to one central bank. You could deal with the other party directly and securely.

All of our money right now has single points of failure. The Wells Fargo scam and Equifax hack and the 2008 financial meltdown should have made that clear. One large institution goes down or some bad government policy or bone headed move by Washington and we all go down with it. Our money, The stock market. Our CD's, 401k's, investments. It's all controlled and at the mercy of a few players.

If Wells Fargo had been using blockchain technology, there would have been no way for employees to siphon money from account holders in order to open other fake accounts in their names. As soon as accounts were tampered with and unapproved transactions started to show up the decentralized system would have denied the transactions.

Bitcoin doesn't have a point of failure. Encrypted records are tamper proof and backed up all over the planet. No one person or group can take it down or manipulate it. Even you can host a node on the blockchain.

Another scenario is even closer to home. Me and my friends can't easily transfer money to each other unless we all use the same bank, or are all using the exact same app like Venmo. With Bitcoin we can do that in seconds and it doesn't matter which bitcoin app or wallet everyone is using.

There's another thread about transfer fees from Euros to U.S. Dollars and losing value of their money. Not an issue with Bitcoin, it's worth the same regardless of what country you're in.

The anonymity aspect of the transactions is also attractive to people who don't want government watching everything they do and where they spend their money.

I'm not saying it's going to save the world or that you should start using it on my say so, but the tech is already in play by some major institutions and all of the financial giants are already in it. It's worth paying attention to and it's kind of fun.

To be fair it's not perfect yet but I'm perfectly comfortable using it for small transactions, especially things online that I don't necessarily want tracked back to my credit or debit card. I'm also studying and leaning towards cyber security so I like it as a way to receive payments.

[Bobjob]

I remember when I thought Apple stock couldn't go higher than 300 a share.

I bank with Regions which is a fairly large bank and I do not believe they are into Bitcoin yet. This the coins very nature, and the fact that so many are not using it yet leads me to believe it still has a lot of value growth to go.

[Paul]

It's probably just not for you right now,. Maybe never. But for the sake of the conversation there are real world applications that are already making people's lives better.

People in economically depressed areas who don't have access to banking, live in rural areas around the world, or people in our own country who can't get bank accounts now have a way to receive and transfer money without having to go through a bank and ask for approval, and permission, and be at the mercy of constant fees and rule changes.

Think about how many hands and approvals and percentage points a mortgage has to go through. Blockchain eliminates the need for all that, and it is more secure than writing a check to one central bank. You could deal with the other party directly and securely.

All of our money right now has single points of failure. The Wells Fargo scam and Equifax hack and the 2008 financial meltdown should have made that clear. One large institution goes down or some bad government policy or bone headed move by Washington and we all go down with it. Our money, The stock market. Our CD's, 401k's, investments. It's all controlled and at the mercy of a few players.

If Wells Fargo had been using blockchain technology, there would have been no way for employees to siphon money from account holders in order to open other fake accounts in their names. As soon as accounts were tampered with and unapproved transactions started to show up the decentralized system would have denied the transactions.

Bitcoin doesn't have a point of failure. Encrypted records are tamper proof and backed up all over the planet. No one person or group can take it down or manipulate it. Even you can host a node on the blockchain.

Another scenario is even closer to home. Me and my friends can't easily transfer money to each other unless we all use the same bank, or are all using the exact same app like Venmo. With Bitcoin we can do that in seconds and it doesn't matter which bitcoin app or wallet everyone is using.

There's another thread about transfer fees from Euros to U.S. Dollars and losing value of their money. Not an issue with Bitcoin, it's worth the same regardless of what country you're in.

The anonymity aspect of the transactions is also attractive to people who don't want government watching everything they do and where they spend their money.

I'm not saying it's going to save the world or that you should start using it on my say so, but the tech is already in play by some major institutions and all of the financial giants are already in it. It's worth paying attention to and it's kind of fun.

To be fair it's not perfect yet but I'm perfectly comfortable using it for small transactions, especially things online that I don't necessarily want tracked back to my credit or debit card. I'm also studying and leaning towards cyber security so I like it as a way to receive payments.

I appreciate your explanation. There are obviously some valid applications. But it all still leaves me rather skeptical. There is still the inherent weakness regarding its use particularly in the depressed parts of the globe you refer to. First, I may be wrong but it seems it can only be used electronically/digitally. Unless you have a device how do you use it? How does a poor dirt farmer buy seed or a mule with it?

It seems so totally dependent on the next guy accepting it as payment, while major currencies are accepted universally. This is my biggest problem with the concept. Just like many third world currencies have crashed and burned I think Crypto is even more subject to the same. Crypto may have “no point of failure” but it also has no point of support. Like a Ponzi scheme it is dependent on the next guy to “buy in”.

You mention anonymity and protection from government intrusion, something I completely support. However, it may be anonymous now, but the block chain tech(as I understand it) looks like a very intrusive monitoring tool that captures every little transaction. In my opinion, the government already has way too much access to all of our personal information. I fear that ultimately government could misuse the technology to be even more intrusive. I understand that theoretically it has no point of intrusive entry but nothing is foolproof.

From an ease of use perspective, I don’t see the benefit over the current system. I’ve transferred and received money in a variety of ways, wires, ach , paypal etc. It couldn’t be much easier. I hardly ever have to use physical money as it is. I can tap, swipe, chip card just about everywhere for anything, even vending machines. I pay all my bills online already, I have instant online access to my bank accounts so I don’t see that benefit.

I do realize that the financial institutions do nip us with fees etc, but on the other hand they also pay interest or you can get other returns from various investments. I don’t know if that can be done with crypto.

I appreciate the concept but remain skeptical of its long term prospects.

[Harold Mansfield]

Other banks who are investing and using bitcoin, and exploring the technology include Citi, Barclays, UBS, Goldman Sachs, BNP, ( off the top of my head). There are others in EU and Asia I just can't remember any names.

I see websites and mobile apps accepting Bitcoin quite a bit. I myself have both personal and merchant accounts and can accept Bitcoin in any scenario. Yep, still a ways to go, lot of fine tuning to be done, and I would agree this current spike is a bubble based on previous bubbles, but I think the tech is here to stay.

The crazy part is, no one has any idea who really invented it. It was kind of just given to the world anonymously and people realized that it actually works. .

[Harold Mansfield]

I appreciate your explanation. There are obviously some valid applications. But it all still leaves me rather skeptical. There is still the inherent weakness regarding its use particularly in the depressed parts of the globe you refer to. First, I may be wrong but it seems it can only be used electronically/digitally. Unless you have a device how do you use it? How does a poor dirt farmer buy seed or a mule with it?

It seems so totally dependent on the next guy accepting it as payment, while major currencies are accepted universally. This is my biggest problem with the concept. Just like many third world currencies have crashed and burned I think Crypto is even more subject to the same. Crypto may have “no point of failure” but it also has no point of support. Like a Ponzi scheme it is dependent on the next guy to “buy in”.
.

Just wanted to clarify, it's not really depending on the next guy to buy in. Those days are over now. Enough people around the world are in and are using it now. It's self sustaining and seen and used as currency now.

But I completely understand your skepticism. They are the same concerns I had and some I still have.

[Paul]

Other banks who are investing and using bitcoin, and exploring the technology include Citi, Barclays, UBS, Goldman Sachs, BNP, ( off the top of my head). There are others in EU and Asia I just can't remember any names.

I see websites and mobile apps accepting Bitcoin quite a bit. I myself have both personal and merchant accounts and can accept Bitcoin in any scenario. Yep, still a ways to go, lot of fine tuning to be done, and I would agree this current spike is a bubble based on previous bubbles, but I think the tech is here to stay.

The crazy part is, no one has any idea who really invented it. It was kind of just given to the world anonymously and people realized that it actually works. .

I'm sure the actual technology can be a great tool for large bank type institutions to better track transactions. It's the "virtual currency" that I question. As for not knowing who invented it, well that's a little concerning! You would know better than I, but I would guess that if someone could invent it then someone could hack it.

I see that they claim that crypto currency production is capped to protect against dilution. A question is who capped it? How do we know it won't be uncapped?

[Paul]

On the investing aspect of crypto. Is it a matter of purchasing crypto with dollars and then hoping it appreciates against the dollar (or other currency)? Basically currency trading. Or do you invest in some crypto company? Just curious.

[Harold Mansfield]

I'm sure the actual technology can be a great tool for large bank type institutions to better track transactions. It's the "virtual currency" that I question. As for not knowing who invented it, well that's a little concerning! You would know better than I, but I would guess that if someone could invent it then someone could hack it.

I see that they claim that crypto currency production is capped to protect against dilution. A question is who capped it? How do we know it won't be uncapped?

It's not "virtual" per se'. It's digital. I have money in my wallet that's from real cash. I used actual USD's to buy bitcoin so that I can use it to buy things. People who send me bitcoin have also purchased it with actual money or they got paid in Bitcoin from others who purchased Bitcoin with actual money. The money is Bitcoin is from real cash.

The only people who "make" bitcoin are miners. It's their reward for providing massive computers that solve the equations which verify the transactions. The miners cannot interfere with transactions, they only provide the computing power to solve the equations for the encrypted transactions. They have no power over specifics and anyone can keep a record of all transactions. This is part of the decentralization. No single point of failure and it can't be tampered with.

Investing in bitcoin is a different thing than using bitcoin as payment. I have a merchant account that allows me to accept bitcoin and immediate convert that into USD and into my bank account.

Who capped it? No one. It's how it was developed from start to prevent dilution. The cap is part of the security and algorithm. Not a separate thing.
Who can remove the cap? Everyone would have to agree. Meaning hundreds of thousands of people The economic majority https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Economic_majority

[Harold Mansfield]

On the investing aspect of crypto. Is it a matter of purchasing crypto with dollars and then hoping it appreciates against the dollar (or other currency)? Basically currency trading. Or do you invest in some crypto company? Just curious.

Pretty much. You can buy it on your own. You don't need to go through a trader, although there are traders for larger transactions. I think my purchase limit is around $3k mo. if I buy from a card and it's unlimited if I transfer funds directly from my bank account.

[Harold Mansfield]

Also, Bitcoin and Ether are not exactly the same. There are some tech differences that some say make Ether a more stable and useful technology.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UBk1e5qnr4

[Fulcrum]

The crazy part is, no one has any idea who really invented it. It was kind of just given to the world anonymously and people realized that it actually works. .

I find this to be quite concerning. The conspiracy theorist inside me has set off alarm bells saying be very, very careful. There is no free lunch and I don't believe that the makers of Bitcoin did this out of the goodness of their hearts.

[Harold Mansfield]

I find this to be quite concerning. The conspiracy theorist inside me has set off alarm bells saying be very, very careful. There is no free lunch and I don't believe that the makers of Bitcoin did this out of the goodness of their hearts.

Well, the paper is about cryptography and decentralization but yeah, the whole "no one knows who Satoshi Nakamoto is" thing makes my tin foil hat tingle. Tons of conspiracies out there.

My own theory is that it was more than one person, 4 of the top people in the field at the time.

I mean if you really want to go all X-Files on it, the timing...just after the banks caused the financial meltdown and all those 99% movements, and countries like Iceland jailing bankers and nationalizing the banks, and the LIBOR scandal and worldwide protests..for it to come out after all that is also the stuff of folklore. Makes me want to put on my Guy Fawkes mask right now.

Here's the wikipedia page about it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satoshi_Nakamoto

[Paul]

I find this to be quite concerning. The conspiracy theorist inside me has set off alarm bells saying be very, very careful. There is no free lunch and I don't believe that the makers of Bitcoin did this out of the goodness of their hearts.


According to Wikapedia “As of 24 May 2017, Nakamoto (whoever it is) is believed to own up to roughly one million bitcoins,[4] with a value estimated at approximately $7 billion USD as of November 2017.”

I’m not sure how accurate that estimate is, seems extraordinarily high, but clearly it is a money making opportunity for whoever developed it.

A bit like a new stock issue from a company. The “founders/insiders” create a “currency” in the form of shares, keep a boat load for themselves, and then create a demand that creates a value convertible to cash. They distribute enough to the public to create a market and then its “cash out” time.

[Harold Mansfield]

According to Wikapedia “As of 24 May 2017, Nakamoto (whoever it is) is believed to own up to roughly one million bitcoins,[4] with a value estimated at approximately $7 billion USD as of November 2017.”

I’m not sure how accurate that estimate is, seems extraordinarily high, but clearly it is a money making opportunity for whoever developed it.

A bit like a new stock issue from a company. The “founders/insiders” create a “currency” in the form of shares, keep a boat load for themselves, and then create a demand that creates a value convertible to cash. They distribute enough to the public to create a market and then its “cash out” time.

It's kind of hard to accept that no one knows who it is, but then make the assumption that this mystery person owns all of this bitcoin. Really absolutely no way to verify that at all. I also think if true, he ( or whoever they are) would have cashed out by now or at least sold SOME of it. It's been 10 years and they haven't cashed out one dime? Sounds very unlikely or someone is very, very patient. Also considering the volatility, the value could drop at anytime. Seems pretty risky to have never cashed any of it out.

[Paul]

It's kind of hard to accept that no one knows who it is, but then make the assumption that this mystery person owns all of this bitcoin. Really absolutely no way to verify that at all. I also think if true, he ( or whoever they are) would have cashed out by now or at least sold SOME of it. It's been 10 years and they haven't cashed out one dime? Sounds very unlikely or someone is very, very patient. Also considering the volatility, the value could drop at anytime. Seems pretty risky to have never cashed any of it out.

A large part of my skepticism IS the anonymity and mystery around the founders and the concept in general.

Like the stock guys they liquidate as they can. “sell into the volume” they say. They have probably been cashing out all along. I have no problem with that, just pointing out that, like Fulcrum said, Bitcoin is not a magnanimous gift to society.

At least with the stock guys the public usually knows who owns the big blocks. Big block insiders have to report their sales. There is the SEC agency and local prosecutors that can prosecute fraud (or least try). If you are a victim of fraud you can attempt to pursue legal remedy. In any case you will know, generally, who defrauded you.

Many new public companies come out with a bang and then crash and burn as the insiders liquidate. I see the same risk with Crypto. When and if it does who do we blame? At least stock guys have some fear of prosecution to keep them inline. There is no jurisdiction over crypto. They couldn’t even identify the bad guys!

Feels like a dot.com bubble to me. The first guys in and out made fortunes and then came the crash. Of course Crypto may never crash and might become a strong global currency, but who knows?

[Harold Mansfield]

I, and many experts..even staunch bit coin supporters agree that there needs to be some additional regulation. (but then again so does some aspects of the internet). But like the internet, a country can't effectively control something that it doesn't own other than outlawing it. Bitcoin is not the U.S. dollar. It's a global currency,

There is some regulation. My bit coin wallets seem to comply with U.S. banking and financial requirements as far as verifying your ID and information.
I was just as detailed as creating a bank account online or a Pay Pal account. And banks are clearly participating as my accounts are connected. I can cash bitcoin out right into my Pay Pal, checking or savings account. No bull. No fees. No waiting.

Lot of work to do and I think we will get there. Since the financial institutions are in on it now and they seem to have the ear of Congress to get what they want, I'll bet we'll see something soon. I just hope it's not a gift that gives the Wells Fargo's and Goldman Sach's of the world control. That will ruin it. It's appeal is that it's a global currency. But you know how the United States likes to toss monkey wrenches in something when corporations can't control it.

[Fulcrum]

Contrary to my own personal opinions, I can see Bitcoin, or something similar, becoming a (the?) global currency.

[SkinnyWY]

I used to have Amazon Coins once. My only purchase was a blowdryer I've chosen here (https://mystraightener.com/best-chi-hair-dryers-expert-picks-that-are-worth-every-penny/). As for the other currencies, I'm seriously thinking about making some money on bitcoin. At first I was a little skeptical about it, but I see that it is possible to make some money on bitcoin.

[turboguy]

Good luck with making money on Bitcoin. It is also possible to lose money on Bitcoin. I would not touch it with a 10' pole.

[Blue Hen]

I have used it to make some purchases. I booked a hotel on expedia with Bitcoin once and have used it to make some online purchases.

[Dwayne]

I use crypto sometimes, but I'm still new to it, so I'm afraid to do something wrong and loose a lot of money(I'm speaking about trading)