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huggytree
09-01-2009, 04:13 PM
most of my problems are with new home builders..when i get busier im going to dump all of them and stick with remodels..

anyways my latest new home builder problem is with 'extra's'...the builder keeps adding on extra work, but does not want to pay my prices to do it. He's added on 5 things and i have to listen to how im riping him off each time..this last time he has refused to sign off on it...of course im not going to do it then...but he keeps bugging me to lower the price saying its not reasonable....its running a gas line to a 2nd dryer in the basement....my normal charge would have been $150 while i was doing the gas pipe...now thats its already done ive asked for $200 since i have to bring all my equipment back down stairs and set it up...if anything this price is low and im sticking to my guns..

Ive done projects on his house and his investment properties for cost for over a year now (maybe 10 total)...all because i hoped to get his next 'real' project...finally he signed a new house and i got it...now he seems to think i should do the house 'at cost' too....

he keeps having issues with the sump pumps..finally demanding a different float system ($65 out of my pocket) + a couple of hours labor putzing with them...one min he says it too big of a pump and the next he says its too small...he times them with a stop watch ...this is a lake house and had water issues (gutters were draining into the foundation, but now are fixed)...he's obsessed with the sump pumps....i also missed a floor drain in a outside basement stair well when bidding ($400 not in the contract, i could have fought for) which i ate....also i decided to upgrade them to polished brass valves/trim in their powder room since they have a polished brass faucet/toilet (1920's look)....i forgot it on the original bid and decided chrome wouldnt look right ($200 out of my pocket)..

i am giving him $800 worth of extra's out of my pocket to impress him and keep him happy....still he keeps complaining

i have not told him about the $800 in extra's for free....should i? will that shut him up?

I think he's lost for future work anyways...he hasnt called me for a long time for his properties, so i figure he's moved on.

Harold Mansfield
09-01-2009, 04:57 PM
Dude. He's a chronic cheapskate and complainer. People like that, are like that with everyone. They whine until they get the lowest possible price from everyone, no matter if people take a loss or not, as long as they get what they want.

People like that know, that if they treat everyone the same way, odds are that some will fold and they will get their way. They aren't stupid, they know stuff costs money, but they get off on beating you out of your price so that you can't possibly make any money, and they walk away with the maximum profit...and then later they brag about how they beat some guy down to the penny. It's a game for them. They already know that they will lose that battle with someone who could care less abut their business, so they don't call those people. They pick on people who in their minds need the business.

They also have it in their minds that everyone is a rip off, because they don't actually understand, or want to understand anything outside of their own selfish world.

You say he hasn't called you in a while ? That's probably because the other guy he was using told him to "shove it".
If you can afford to, stand firm. If he get's any more annoying...walk. Let him find someone else. That's easy for me to say...I don't have a family to support, but seriously..lay it down.

"Look, this is the way it is, and this is what it costs. I have cut you slack here, here, here and here. No more. If you keep adding work... IT COSTS MORE MONEY ! Just like everything else in life. I'm running a plumbing business, not a flea market. Are we going to work together or not ?"

I used to deal with people like this all the time, especially here in Vegas. Every weekend warrior is a high roller. Every tourist knows "the skinny" and they all think they know the town, and the business (every business) better than you with the 2 days a year they spend here. I had the luxury of telling people like that to "find someone else who is desperate enough to deal with you".

You can't change people like that, they will spend $100 to beat someone out of $10.

huggytree
09-01-2009, 05:11 PM
id love to explain it to him like that, but of course i wont..

yes he is a cronic complainer

but should i explain all the extra's ive done for him to impress him and make him happy or let it go and move on?

his project is $18k and of couse id love a 2nd or 3rd just for the $

im going to hold the lien waver on the last payment until he exchanges it for a check though. He was a good builder until the extra's...now he complains about everything

Steve B
09-01-2009, 05:29 PM
"of couse id love a 2nd or 3rd just for the $" This doesn't make any sense to me. If you are losing money why would you love to get more of this business?

I wouldn't tell him about the extras because that will do two things. One, it will prove that you are making a lot of money on him otherwise you wouldn't be able to give him something for nothing. And, two, it will become the new standard if you ever work for him again.

If you're describing the situation accurately, this sounds like an incredibly easy decision. Stand firm, collect your money, and never answer the phone again when he calls.

Harold Mansfield
09-01-2009, 06:26 PM
it will become the new standard if you ever work for him again.
.

Yep ! Once it starts, it will never end and every time you will hear, "Well last time you.."
Everyone wants to feel like they got a deal, or got the "Hook Up", and most of us have some leeway to "throw in" a few things. The trick is feeling them out to find out what "extra" will impress them most and give them that "I got hooked up" feeling, or you will throw the kitchen sink at them for nothing.

huggytree
09-01-2009, 07:28 PM
by doing his personal work for 'cost' i probably set myself up for problems...i should have just stuck with his own actual house for the deal and not his properties too....now he's spoiled.

if he calls me for future work on his properties i will do it for my normal price from now on...deals are over for him.

This issue goes back to an old builder where i got a job done super early and gave him $1k back...then he told the customer not to worry about my high price because ill give him $ back if its done early....once you start something like that its hard to stop

its a good lesson for everyone.

orion_joel
09-01-2009, 07:32 PM
Look in reality it comes down to simple things. You have had the experience on this project, surprisingly first impressions are often very true and accurate to what to expect.

There are however two ways to look at this.
1. He is pushing to have you do things that were there but you missed, eg the drain, if it was on the requirements list and you missed then he is right to ask you do it in the price you have quoted. The fittings in polished brass if they were there on the plan or request then it would be your oversight.
2. If this is not the case, then the fact is while have $ in needs to weighed up with if the profit is there to cover the extras he is going to want. And you need to realize that if he has demanded extras once it will not be any different on the 2nd and 3rd and how many more projects. Upping you bid price to cover may not be to possible either as then there is the chance of losing the job anyway.

You can either accept that fact that you will be a little quieter without his work, or you can take his work and accept the extra demands, because by the sounds of it they are always going to be part of working with him.

Boots
09-01-2009, 07:48 PM
I read a great article about small business that said the best way to grow your business over time is to start saying no to under-performing clients - like this one. The author said key signs of under-performers are paying late, adding extras, and always promising the next big project to you if you'll do the current one for cost or lower...

His Wisdom said that dropping these clients may reduce your income for a time, but over the long run you can replace the time and effort used on them to get and retain better clients. I'm not a big fan of stereotyping but this sure sounds like a perfect match...

Now, if only I could remember what article that was from, I would link it! Let me dig around for a bit..

Boots
09-01-2009, 08:01 PM
Ok, I found it. I think I actually responded to another post on here with a link to one of the articles in this same series. Even though this is about a media company, the lessons are so applicable to other businesses that I keep coming back to it. The part I was mentioning is under the 'just say no' heading:
Your Own Business, Part 3; Running & Building Your Business (http://blogs.creativecow.net/blog/300/your-own-business-part-3-running-building-your-business)

huggytree
09-01-2009, 10:36 PM
oriol joel i agree w/ you on the missed drain...thats why i didnt say anything...but if i wanted to it was not in my contract....he should have caught it too..its an odd thing to have in a house and he should have noticed it for sure...possibly he did and figured tough.

the brass valves under the toilet/ped. sink is just me being fussy and wanting it to be the best it can...he didnt ask for it, but probably would have after he saw a polished brass bathroom w/ chrome valves....once again it was my fault for not noticing it.....

thats why i wasnt sure if i should even mention these free extra's...both are my fault

in the end i will make profit still on the project...its just stressing me out and irriatating me

huggytree
09-02-2009, 08:26 PM
builder ok'd the extra's tonight....and also added more again....

he only complained slightly today. he's just happy that ill be there tomarrow

Business Attorney
09-03-2009, 12:06 AM
Good for you, Dave.

orion_joel
09-03-2009, 12:06 AM
Huggy, i think especially in this instance with the drain. It comes down to possibly the burden to notice it is more in your court. I do agree that builders may have some idea of what goes into everything, eg they know that if there is a drain there needs o be pipe to it, if there is an electric socket there needs to be wires to it. However this also comes down to two points.

1. A builder hires a plumber to do the plumbing because legally he cannot do it himself, and have it meet the code and requirements (well maybe he could but he is not licensed to)
2. Because of this while the builder may know a little about it, they want to have as little to do with it as possible, so they get the plumber to quote it and expect that as the expert being hired to do the job they will quote everything they needs to be done.

So it comes down to depending on their knowledge of the area, and the way that you word the quote, will depend on whether it is reasonable to expect them to pick up on things you may have missed, or not.

cocoy
09-03-2009, 05:11 PM
You don't itemize your bid and have the customer sign off on it?

Anything installed that's not on the bid will cost extra.

huggytree
09-03-2009, 09:53 PM
My bids are extremely Itemized

anything not in the bid should cost extra, but if its something stupid that I missed I just eat it...better to eat it than look like an idiot that misses things...mistakes happen...i have a 10% fudge factor in my parts allowance...that covers missed fittings/parts.

met the builder in person today...he's really a nice guy when its in person..he's only a jerk on the phone...doesnt have the guts to say bad stuff to my face...he's very old and could be alittle senile.maybe just a touch

janiels
09-04-2009, 10:26 AM
if he's my client I will definitely shut him up, he's not a perfectionist at all, all he knows was to look for something that he can complain to cut off the cost, a lot of people do that to bargain things.

just leave him, we know that you are dedicated and really good at your work so there are a lot of people that will surely need your services..

huggytree
09-04-2009, 07:03 PM
no i dont need him..

I have signed 3 new builders in the past 6 weeks...2 minor, 1 major clients

the major client is the highest end remodeler in the market...they always win 'remodeler of the year'.

also had 1 old remodeler just come back to me...he left for price 9 months ago....i havent lowered my prices for him.....he came back because you get what you pay for!

its been a good week.

Spider
09-04-2009, 08:37 PM
...its been a good week.Excellent! Well done!