tough situation with a good customer

[huggytree]

Im going back and forth with a customer 5x now

they are great and very understanding...money and cheapness never enter the conversation, they just want the problem fixed.

its a 1950's house built on slab(no basement). The kitchen sink is having draining problems. I used the old kitchen sink drain when we remodeled which is buried in concrete. none of the plumbing was done correctly in the house (homeowner job 60 years ago). The whole house is constructed poorly. The old kitchen sink didnt have a vent (a vent is needed at every fixture). I added a Studor vent(a mechanical vent which goes under the sink).

The dishwasher keeps backing up at the airgap ontop of the sink and the sink drains dont work well. When we remove the Studor vent it works correctly. You cannot just remove the studor vent perminantly because sewer gas would come in the house. I use Studor vents all the time w/o any problems, so what Ive come up with is a drain problem...ive had it snaked 3x now and they always find nothing.

I have spend hours redoing the kitchen drains and paid for one of the drain snaking's myself. Im going back there 1 last time to try a new idea and give it one last shot.

i think the drain could have a dip in it. a dip would create a spot where air couldnt get through which would create positive pressure on the studor vent (which its not designed to handle)...a dip would also not show up when they snaked the sink....for a drain to work correctly the pipe needs to be 1/2 full of water and the top 1/2 with air...a dip blocks the air....just a theory

i dont believe any of this is my fault, but want to keep the customer happy since they've done 3 projects with me. If i charge for my time ill be up to $500 in parts and service on this project out of my pocket....my freebee's are about to end....if this latest idea i have doesnt work Im going to explain how she must get the drain camera'd and possibly tear up her brand new $40,000 kitchen to bust up her floor and rerun her drain. (possibly $15,000 for everything)

she's not blaming me yet and its in my contract that im not responsible for existing conditions...of course she says the old drain never did that....the new dishwasher may pump out faster....

any suggestions or idea's?

[Harold Mansfield]

If you are not the blame, and she's not blaming you...I think that you should just be honest and give your best professional opinion, even invite her to get a second opinion from some kind of municipal inspector (not another plumber). and tell her what needs to be done.

I know how you feel, a little bad that it looks like the fix is going to cost her, but if she is going to end up doing this anyway (and they have the money), there is no reason that you shouldn't do the job.

Just make sure that you have exhausted all options and you are absolutely sure what the problem is.
You can't tear up someone's kitchen on a "best guess" (or can you ?)...that would really affect future business from new clients.

[huggytree]

Im going to let her know that her next step is a sewer camera and a 2nd opinion from another plumber

this will be my last trip for free

[SteveC]

The customers perception is that it was working fine for years before you carried out your work... and now that you've done your work, it doesn't work... so the customer has gone from having something work for sixty years to having something that doesn't work.

You're the expert and you were paid for this expertize... so fix the problem, take the vent out, it didn't have one before so take it out now... that will fix the problem and get the client to sign a disclaimer if you must... confirming her request that he vent be removed.... because if I were the customer... it would simply be your fault.

..... that is the custmers perception, yours is obviously different...

[orion_joel]

I kind of agree with Steve. To me you have actually explained it to my understanding that a vent may not be needed, if what you believe is the problem that affects the vent is correct.

You mention that there may be a dip in the pipe, meaning that some of the pipe is not at the natural state (half water, half air). If there is actually a dip in the pipe that it to be completely filled with water, would this not provide the way to stop sewer gas coming back through the drain.

It may not be an ideal solution, however if this is the case then it has been working i would assume ok for the past 60 years, so why change it. Just based on the fact that you believe a drain must have a vent.

Sometimes you have to let it come down to your professional opinion is not going to be as important as doing the work around that will keep the customer happy.

Even if it does come down to having a disclaimer signed saying just what removing the vent may do, the chances are if it has been working for a long time it will continue as such for the foreseeable future.

[huggytree]

every drain MUST have a vent to be code legal...i have to do it the way i did.

it probably wasnt working well ever....the old dishwasher may have had a less powerful pump and was not hooked up the same...

yes i touched it and now i own it, but i cant redo the drains for free that had nothing to do with me....the customer has been so understanding and easy going that i want to make things right for them...it is not going to be possible though without tearing up their new kitchen...i just have to get it to a barely working stage....sad, but its all im going to be able to do...

im just glad i have 'not responsible for condition of existing plumbing' in my contract..

[orion_joel]

Have you looked at other considerations, for example, redirecting the drain outside the house, or somehow that will still cost the customer money but will cost a lot less then ripping up the kitchen?

[huggytree]

that may not even be legal in Mexico...

yes ive come up with many idea's

I may let her choose which option she wants tomarrow...Ive come up with 4 different idea's to try...none are code legal....3 should definately improve things, but each will have its downside..possible sewage smell is probably the best option right now...basically an open vent.....as long as they keep the cabinet closed it shouldnt smell outside of it....also probably not legal in Mexico either.

[Spider]

Without knowing the situation firsthand, I cannot speak to the problem or the solution. I just want to comment about the nature of plumbing work that some seem to be ignoring or just don't realize. I will stand strongly with Dave on this. The plumbing code (indeed, buldings codes in general) are written and enforced for a purpose - health and safety being paramount. If Code requires a vent, a vent must be installed, and to not do so would have serious consequences.

There is a certain amount of "grandfathering" - if Dave saw that a vent or a trap or whatever was not present, he could walk away, but if he does any work on the line at all, he must - MUST - do his work to code. Having done it, he cannot (in any juridiction I have worked) put it back the way it was.

I would suggest, Dave, that you could (assuming the removal of the vent will solve the problem) install it as loosely as you dare and let the customer remove it after you leave.

Here's another idea - recommend she hire a building inspector, stating what the problem is so she gets one with the required knowledge. This may not be a plumbing problem.

[orion_joel]

Understand the issue with the Code and all, hench why i changed my suggestion.

What i now do not understand is how rerouting the drain is not code legal, if you reroute it then you would still be installing it to the code, just in a different location?

[Ad-Vice_Man]

Understand the issue with the Code and all, hench why i changed my suggestion.

What i now do not understand is how rerouting the drain is not code legal, if you reroute it then you would still be installing it to the code, just in a different location?

The first time I read your post i thought you meant to literally drain the sink into the front yard... like the pipe ends and the water drips onto the grass. I'm sure that's how they read it too....

I now understand you meant to run a totally new line that in fact connects to the sewer system

[huggytree]

I went there today and took out all of the guts of the Studor vent and reinstalled it...it appears to be 100% code legal, but is now an open vent...sewer gas may come up under the kitchen sink...from my experience the smell should only be present under the sink and not spread to the kitchen.

I filled up the sink and let it drain again and it drained much better, but still backed up into the 2nd sink....so there is still a blockage or something wrong..

called the drain cleaner and he's going back for a 4th time.

I talked w/ the homeowner and told her the truth about whats going on....she says its not my fault, so im free and clear.....i told her to hire a drain cleaner w/ a camera and find out whats really going on...

I smelled no sewer gas while i was there which is very unusual for a septic system house...usually its extremely smelly....this backs up my opinion that the drain is backpitched or has a dip in it...if it holds water in a dip that is preventing the sewer gas..i told her the truth about how to fix those problems we need to pull up your cabinets and bust up the floor...she didnt seem shocked...the phone conversation was very pleasant and ended well...

ive basically passed her on to the drain cleaner.

[Spider]

She sounds like a good customer, not to be blaming you. One to hold on to? I think so.

Suggestion: Keep in touch with her. Even though you feel she is now in the hands of the drain cleaner, you did refer her, so she may still be looking to you for guidance. That would be good (if she is as good a customer as she seems to be.) After a week or so, call to see if the drain cleaner solved the problem.

I know that keeps you involved in a problem you would rather forget, but she could be the source of much future work, on her own account or referrals. Her uncle could be a property manager at a major bank, or her son president of a real estate holding company.

Problems are opportunities.

[cocoy]

There may not be enough slope in the existing drain.

Were fixtures added in the remodel?

Can you see if the AAV opens up when draining?

Can you use a loop vent for the DW drain instead of the air gap?

Just stuff I though about. :)

[cocoy]

Oops. I meant loop drain. Not loop vent.