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View Full Version : Constructive Criticism or Be Blunt?



KristineS
08-18-2009, 12:45 PM
I know the politically correct thing to say is that everyone can write a passable sentence and that anyone can be taught to write reasonably well, and most of me believes that. Every once in a while, however, I'll come across someone who just can't write, and who I don't think could be taught to write even if given a lot of help and encouragement.

I guess my question is this: is there ever a time when it is o.k. to say "Just don't write anymore"?

I'm struggling with this a bit right now, and I'd love some opinions.

vangogh
08-18-2009, 01:44 PM
Hmm? Difficult question to answer, especially without knowing more details of the situation.

If this is work related maybe you could give the other person more non writing work for awhile without actually telling them not to write. If it's more a situation where you don't control the person's work you could also point out sources where they could improve their writing and hope for the best.

I do think everyone can be taught to write better than they currently write, but that doesn't mean they'll ever reach a point where they'll write well. I think we all have the potential, but not everyone will reach their potential.

If the poor writing is interfering with your work or your company's work then I think it's ok to tell this person they shouldn't be writing. However I would seek a tactful way of telling them. Honest, but tactful. If this person's writing only affects their own business or life, I'd probably go with the trying to help angle instead of telling them not to write. In that case you can still be honest and tactful, but if it's their life they have to make the decision.

nealrm
08-18-2009, 02:26 PM
Some people have a talent for writing some don't. Like wise some people have a talent for programing (Engineering, chemistry, music, .............) and some don't.

While must can improve thier writing skill to an acceptable level, not eveyone can. If some cases you should focus on what you do best.

Dan Furman
08-19-2009, 08:34 AM
Sticky one. Because unlike most other things, writing is something that everyone is somewhat expected to have as a basic skill (readin' writin' rithmatic').

But just like any other job skill, if the person isn't good enough, you have to tell them. Writing reasonably well, and being paid to write are two completely different things - even people who write well usually aren't good enough to be paid for it, so there's really no shame here (and it sounds in your case like pay is involved, because why else would it matter if they didn't write well.)

KristineS
08-19-2009, 03:44 PM
It's not a pay thing. I run this organization which is centered around outdoor blogging. There are a few blogs that don't get a lot of traffic and readers and, on occasion, I've been asked why that is. Mostly it is because the blogs aren't good and they aren't fun to read.

I suppose maybe other people don't notice the bad writing as much as I do, so maybe I should just keep my mouth shut, but there comes a point where I just want to say, you can't write, do something else, even though my official policy is always everyone can write a passable blog. It's a bit frustrating, because I believe that everyone can write a passable blog, but not everyone can write a great one, and this person wants to have a great blog and doesn't have the skill to make that happen.

Spider
08-19-2009, 04:40 PM
If anyone asks my opinion, they get my honest opinion. Otherwise, why did they ask? If I am commenting without having been asked, I might be a little more circumspect. Most of the time I'll just hold my tongue. I think that is a good balance to draw.

vangogh
08-20-2009, 12:20 AM
Kristine maybe you could just suggest that you think the writing could use improvement and recommend some sources where they can learn more. You probably shouldn't tell them they shouldn't write, but you can mention that the writing needs to be improved and even tell them some of the things you notice need improvement.

If they want to know why the blog isn't where they want it to be there's no reason you can't tell them. I'd go with the constructive criticism. The decision to stop writing completely should be there own.

Blessed
08-20-2009, 06:35 AM
I think constructive criticism is the right move to make in this situation. I've visited a few blogs on the blogroll that made me cringe because of the grammar and general lack of "good writing" but I'm afraid that simply stating that they can't write wouldn't be received well.

Of course... sometimes I reread a post on my blog and I cringe because of the writing... :) I do post almost daily, but I've often had the "quality" vs "quantity" discussion. I know my blog would be a "better" blog if I focused more on the quality of my individual posts than on having a post every week day, but right now that isn't where my focus is - right now my blog is just an outlet. I'm glad people read it, because I enjoy the interaction, but the quality of writing you see there is pretty low on my priority list right now. I guess if I ever decide to have a blog dedicated to quality writing I might just need to start over - but that would be ok.

KristineS
08-20-2009, 12:48 PM
It's a tough one, because I don't want to discourage anyone from writing, and I have seen some blogs that I thought were not good at first become quite a bit better and a few become stellar. So it can happen.

I guess my problem lies with people who don't want to improve so they will be better writers, they just want to get more people to see their blog and become "stars". I don't have much time for those people. The bloggers who have a lot of readers have generally worked very hard at creating a good product.

Dan Furman
08-20-2009, 01:29 PM
It's a bit frustrating, because I believe that everyone can write a passable blog

Stop believing that :)

Really, not even close. Most people can't even write a decent Christmas letter.

Spider
08-20-2009, 05:31 PM
The "constructive critisism" idea is fascinating. I always liked to give what I felt was "constructive critisism" and wondered why people wouldn't take it as such. After many years, I have come to learn that there is no such thing as "constructive critisism." There is critisism and there is praise and there are suggestions for improvement. They are separate. Mix them up and you get an unintended result.

Best solution, I have found is what is known as the "Toastmaster's Sandwich" -- Three separate elements: You start with something that was well done, then offer a suggestion for improvement in the form "I would have done xyz instead" -- then end with something you particularly liked.

Seems like a roundabout way to do it but is the only way I have found for advice to be heeded. Any other way and the advice will be ignored - in which case, one would have been better off keeping quiet.

Blessed
08-20-2009, 07:37 PM
Best solution, I have found is what is known as the "Toastmaster's Sandwich" -- Three separate elements: You start with something that was well done, then offer a suggestion for improvement in the form "I would have done xyz instead" -- then end with something you particularly liked.

Thanks Frederick, now I know the name of this concept :)

It's how we were raised, my father is a very patient man and all the instruction, criticism, etc... that I can remember receiving from him were presented in this fashion. It can be very effective.

vangogh
08-20-2009, 07:47 PM
Best solution, I have found is what is known as the "Toastmaster's Sandwich" -- Three separate elements: You start with something that was well done, then offer a suggestion for improvement in the form "I would have done xyz instead" -- then end with something you particularly liked.

We did this in a writing class I took many years ago. As part of critiquing other writers we'd list 3 things we liked about their piece and then 3 suggestions for improvement. I thought it was a great way to critique each other and actually learned as much by coming up with ways to improve the work of others than I did by getting the feedback on my own writing.

I also did a similar thing with someone I worked with a few years back. As part of my job I would correct the work of others and offer feedback. There was one woman in our group who made a lot of mistakes and the people in my job before me would just list all those mistakes and she didn't take well to it and never improved. What I did was start the feedback with something positive she'd done and some way to empathize about how hard the particular book (we were editing books) probably was. Then I would take the main 2 or 3 mistakes she was making and offer ideas how she could do them better. Anything beyond those first 2 or 3 mistakes I ignored.

She took well to it and quickly improved. She generally didn't make the same mistakes in the next book so I could then focus on the next 2 or 3 mistakes. In a short amount of time she was doing a better job than most of the other people in our group.

I think the reason is exactly what you're saying Frederick. Everyone else criticized her work overwhelming her all the things she did wrong. I changed it to starting off with some praise and bonding and then offering a couple of suggestions to do even better.

Amazing how different the results were with the two different approaches.

Baseline
08-20-2009, 10:14 PM
Stop believing that :)

Really, not even close. Most people can't even write a decent Christmas letter.

Amen, brutha.......... we get a bunch every year.:p


Why is it important for you (Kristine) to be the answer? Because if others on the same site are getting traffic, the market is speaking. And if Joe/Jane Bloe insists that they should be "getting" more, you point to the numbers. Show them who IS getting traffic, and let them ask you why. And if they refuse to listen to your good advice? You point them to the numbers.

You are not responsible for them; they sink or swim on merit. IMO, of course........

KristineS
08-21-2009, 12:39 PM
First, I'm a fan of helping people in the way that Spider recommends, by pointing out what they do well, and then working up to what they might do better. It is very effective.

Baseline, as to why I need to be the answer, I guess I don't. In this particular community, however, people seem to think that I am the answer, or at least know the answer, so they tend to ask me. You are right though, I could point out examples and let them draw their own conclusions.

This whole issue is something I'm struggling with a bit right now, what is my duty to others and what should they be able to expect from me?

Business Attorney
08-21-2009, 01:07 PM
I agree with Dan that not everyone can write a great blog post (or Christmas letter), but I think anyone improve their writing with specific constructive comments.

I don't think that it is simply a question of "Constructive Criticism or Be Blunt?" - I think you can be blunt but still give constructive criticism. I think rather than tell someone their writing stinks, you should tell them somethings they can do to improve it.

Spider
08-21-2009, 01:23 PM
... rather than tell someone their writing stinks, you should tell them somethings they can do to improve it.I have found that dong this is pointless, if the improvements have not been asked for - and very often pointless even then.

Unsolicited advice is almost always resented and usually ignored. Even when people ask for advice they often don't want to hear what one has to say.

Baseline
08-21-2009, 01:30 PM
First, I'm a fan of helping people in the way that Spider recommends, by pointing out what they do well, and then working up to what they might do better. It is very effective.

Baseline, as to why I need to be the answer, I guess I don't. In this particular community, however, people seem to think that I am the answer, or at least know the answer, so they tend to ask me. You are right though, I could point out examples and let them draw their own conclusions.

This whole issue is something I'm struggling with a bit right now, what is my duty to others and what should they be able to expect from me?

Just my opinion here............... but your "duty" is to the business, not the individuals that are currently in it. Your skills should be spent making the business better- and if that is in coaching the weak links, great! But if it is in other tasks............... well, I think you know what comes next.

Don't let them put their monkeys on your back.

vangogh
08-21-2009, 01:53 PM
what is my duty to others and what should they be able to expect from me?

Only what you promise to do for them. If people are creating their own expectations for what you should do, it's not your responsibility to live up to those expectations. However doing so would build your reputation and authority so there are some reasons why you might still want to do what they ask.

It's a balance and only you can decide whether it's worth meeting the expectations. Ask yourself what are the pros and cons of helping/not helping and make your decision. Whatever you decide don't question yourself.

Spider
08-21-2009, 05:17 PM
Facinating gender divide here. I would be interested to hear other female comments, either in support or opposing Kristine's approach.

KristineS
08-24-2009, 01:07 PM
It's a balance and only you can decide whether it's worth meeting the expectations. Ask yourself what are the pros and cons of helping/not helping and make your decision. Whatever you decide don't question yourself.

Vangogh,

You'd think that you had heard me agonize over this decision before. :D

Or something rather like it anyway.

Frederick,

I think you make an interesting point. I'm wondering if I would be struggling with this as much if I were male. Guess I still have a Mommy streak in me and I want to take care of everyone and make them all happy. One of the things I am searching for right now is a balance between that and meeting my own needs.

Do guys do this sort of balancing act as well, or is this more a female thing?

vangogh
08-24-2009, 02:08 PM
I'm not sure this is really a male/female thing. It depends on the person involved, but I'll have that feeling of wanting to help someone and also want to tell them the truth directly. With me it depends on the circumstances. With good friends I usually know which approach is best. With strangers I'm more likely to balance the encouragement with the hard truth.

Spider
08-24-2009, 05:01 PM
I'm not sure if this demonstrates a difference between a male and a female approach to a problem - that's why I asked for some other female comments. I simply noticed that all the guys were leaning towards a "speak up and be damned" approach and the one woman was agonizing over it.

I do think that women bring more sensitivity to business and to management. Which is fine by me.

vangogh
08-24-2009, 05:46 PM
You might be right. So far we don't have a large enough sample, which I assume is why you asked for more women to offer an opinion. Maybe it will be a male/female thing. It wouldn't be surprising and it was an interesting observation.

KristineS
08-25-2009, 12:47 PM
It would be interesting to see what another woman would say. Pity there aren't more who post on the site on a regular basis. Guess we need to do some recruiting.

Blessed
08-26-2009, 01:11 AM
Well... honestly it would depend on how I woke up that morning whether or not I would be leaning towards the "speak up and be damned" approach or the "be kind and encouraging" approach.

How's that for a woman's opinion :D

Honestly though, if I feel strongly about something, or feel like I know what I'm talking about I'm usually pretty direct when it comes to talking about it. Now... if I don't have a dog in the fight, don't particularly care or don't feel that I have a good foundation of knowledge about the topic I am a lot more diplomatic.

greenoak
10-31-2009, 08:08 PM
at our store we have fluffers and floppers...realizing that different people have different strengths....so its probably that way with writing too....
another thing to keep in mind is that you probably cant teach good writing... at our place the fluffers/ the artistic ones who can put a display together ...they have a skill that is pretty hard to put into words or to train someone to do....and the floppers / the ones who carry the big stuff around safely have very little in common with the fluffers...and totally underestimate them,,,

probably if the person writes terribly they dont like it anyway and wouldnt mind a little bluntness....
my dh is critical of my style but his sounds like a tight cold business letter..and at the store,he hears me get compliments on the blog and even gripes if i miss a whole week ..so it IS pretty subjective......and maybe a hard call....
ann

Patrysha
10-31-2009, 10:22 PM
You are so right Ann, writing is subjective. The goal is to get it to appeal to your target market, so if they are praising and complimenting and noticing when it is not updated, then you know you are doing that.

I haven't gone back to yours in a long while, mostly because I have no clue about anything antique- and have very little sense of home decor style (though I do know exactly what i want to home to look like when I get the time to get past the cleaning and organizing that needs doing first)...but also because I have a hard time reading in the non-capitalized style that you tend towards. But that's okay because I am not your target market :-)

greenoak
11-01-2009, 07:57 PM
i go for blunt..... and with employees, they know i want them to succeed.... and that i have to tell them if i dont like it....they cant read my mind.... dang!!!
.its not personal....thats my goal anyway.
...but i have to give up on lots of things...and just try and fit the person to what they are good at.... and hope thats enough... .. many times you hire and think they will be good at something that they arent... i hate hiring...its such a coin toss....
. dh hates my capitals and punctuation too....his is perfect.... i can barely type...at least i dont talk in abbreviations....lol
ann

Patrysha
11-01-2009, 09:30 PM
My husband is a much better technical writer than I am with all the grammar, punctuation and spelling all so perfect. Comes from having been an English major back in his early university days I suppose. I have to tell him that I am looking for feedback on the ideas in my writing and not on my execution or I will get notes about my comma use (I am horrible at proper comma usage) rather than the message.

I've heard there are ways to reduce bad hires, but it's all theory...haven't had a influence on a hiring decision in many years. Maybe next year I'll be looking at hiring staff and be able to test what I've been picking up, but until then it's all just theory.

greenoak
11-02-2009, 07:51 AM
kristine, whats the real problem? ..are you sure its writing? maybe hes got a boring idea...... i know you cant say that...but think about it... do good writers have popular blogs? .. i would go with the suggestions of showing the writer some really exciting blogs in the field ....or maybe think about why do people support your guy? and have him go deep/wild into those ideas or traits....
why would people take time to read a blog? why do you go back to a blog? as a blogger i want to be as useful as possible...what could they do to accomplish that....? maybe some kind of related event or hunting law calendar, snow conditions if you area ski lodge, great pictures, , what kind of art framework do those readers like?
for us..dh does the business letters and i do the marketing words.... he can fix the spelling etc....but the main thing in an ad or blog is the idea and if it is interesting to the reader.... if its anything like my field there are so many good blogs its hard to pick where to go..and lots go unread ....

as for writing ability......i was an english major in college....dh was math... so he thinks perfection and i think motivation and fun...
.sometimes in very few words...like on a billboard when you have 7 to 10 words to work with.........
one more thing...sorry....the computer has reallly changed the stuff you read in ~ elements of style~....since now we can change any part of a thing so easily....it makes me see a piece way less as a whole than the old way where we made an outline and followed it....now things seem totally looser with all kinds of options....for insertions tangents etc etc...i think its a lot harder to stick to a plan now.......especially if you start adding things in the middle of things....you can so easily neglect the main whole idea you started with....and you can add big words and color etc etc...
..
also spell check has made me a worse speller...i pay even less attention to it, depending on the spell checker...which is so bad when its not there....
i guess its a brave new world...and in the blog world anyway you can do your own thing....
ann.