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huggytree
08-06-2009, 09:29 AM
did a T&M job yesterday for leaky pipes....its old galvanized water pipes which are past due for a repipe (i told the homeowner to start saving)...i replaced some piping in the basement around the laundry tub (new faucet, washing machine setup w/ valves, 15' of new copper in that area)....

2 hours + $150 in parts + trip charge.....went well.....she didnt have much money and made sure she told me so and i did work hard to keep the hours down....when i left i opened up and ran every faucet in the house...i got all the rust chunks out and everything worked....i get a call back 2 hours later..kitchen faucet doesnt work well...i tell her to remove the aerator and get the rust chunks out...she does it and it works again...get a call back this morning that the cold on that faucet doesnt work and its not the aerator.

so i explain to her that because it was a T&M job that a return trip is chargable, but i will eat the trip charge and the 1 hour minimum...i will just make it a continuation of the previous day....i will probably need to replace her stop valve & supply tub under the sink (probably jammed w/ rust from her old plumbing)....she says WHAT? she blames me, then explains how i overcharged her the day before -she doesnt count packing up my tools & writing out the bill as part of T&M. i explain she is charged from when i open my van door to when i close it again...then she explains how her neighbor said the project should be only $200 and i over charged her and she deserves me to stand behind my work...then she says 'i know where this is going and ive learned some lessons'.....i explained to her how ANY plumber who worked on her house would have the exact same problem...i made no mistakes...it is because you have old plumbing...her point of view is it worked before you started and now it doesnt...fix it for free....

she doesnt want to see my point of view because she doesnt want to pay..it was like talking to a rock...ive had galvanized pipes plug 3x before...if i didnt charge i could be going back 3 days in a row for free?...yea if it was a bid job, but when its T&M the homeowner pays me for all my time...i did explain to her that if it had happened while i was there i would have still been on the clock when i fixed it, so thats all im asking for.

any thoughts? Im glad my BBB membership hasnt gone through yet

Dan Furman
08-06-2009, 10:57 AM
her point of view is it worked before you started and now it doesnt...fix it for free

And she has a point. Bottom line, it's always going to come back to this to the customer. And it's a very valid point. When a tradesperson leaves my house, things need to work. Period.

I know, I know, there are reasons why it didn't work, etc etc... but you already knew this could happen beforehand, right? So she should have been made aware of this before you even started.

Spider
08-06-2009, 12:33 PM
I'm afraid, in my view, this is another example of how fixed pricing is better than Time and Materials. Sure, even with a fixed price, I may have lost money on this job, but in calculating my fixed prices I can include for a return trip and other "difficult to explain" items. And in getting paid for a return trip on those occasions when a return trip was not required, would offset the occasional double return trip on a few jobs, like this one.

Steve B
08-06-2009, 01:14 PM
I had something similar happen recently. I think it will be a debate that will go on forever between service providers and their customers. It's not reasonable for you to be responsible for her old pipes.

I would be as nice as possible, but be prepared for an annoying small claims case - that you will win assuming you have some reasonable language in your service agreement that you, hopefully, got her to sign. Some language such as "we cannot be held responsible for issues that are a result from previously installed hardware etc." Or, you could just go fix it - but, I wouldn't.

Dan Furman
08-06-2009, 01:30 PM
I had something similar happen recently. I think it will be a debate that will go on forever between service providers and their customers. It's not reasonable for you to be responsible for her old pipes.


No, it's not reasonable, but it comes down to "it worked yesterday, and now it doesn't". Huggy did not do a good enough job to explain that these things can and will happen. I mean, when she called him, he had the answer right away, so he must have had experience here.

In other words, he knew this could happen. So in my mind, it's his responsibility to let her know beforehand. I've had tradespeople in my house looking at something and saying "I can fix that, but as a result, this other thing could happen. Just making you aware."

I know a lot of people won't do that, because then they may not get the original job ("leave it alone then" people might say). But it also avoids situations like this, and also makes one look more professional, too.

KristineS
08-06-2009, 04:09 PM
This is why you should always get something in writing. It might take more time, but examine the job, write down any potential problems you see and get the customer to sign it. That way you have back-up if something does become an issue.

huggytree
08-06-2009, 06:32 PM
yes i agree that i should have warned her and explained the potential problems...if i did this before i started i would never get the job, but i could have explained it afterwards or after i started.....old pipes can also fall apart from rot...thats why i did it at T&M..you just dont know whats going to happen....things did work when i left...i always check

1 hour later they didnt...she fixed it.....12 hours later they didnt again....lets say i fix it for free....i may get a call back 12 hours later again....it may take days to fix over and over...it has happened...galvanized pipes when drained and then filled back up can have tons of rust flakes.....

my contract says 'in no way will WP be responsible for condition of existing fixtures or pipes'

im covered....she signed it.....

if i warned the customer about every potential problem id have to spend 15 minutes before every job explaining things...there is just so much to go wrong with old plumbing and just working in a house in general....this basement had tons of junk...i had to climb over junk to work....anything could happen.....you just have to do your best and except theirs a bit of chaos in what i do....i will explain the galvanized thing from now on when i leave...lesson learned

huggytree
08-11-2009, 05:45 PM
got a letter from the BBB today from her....she talked about stopping payment on the check (which i cashed immediately)....i sent a 2 page letter back to the BBB

i dont see how i can lose....we'll see which side the BBB takes

i just spend $400ish on a BBB membership...if this trashes my A rating ill be very upset..hoping it doesnt count against anything...

she just became my worst customer yet.

Steve B
08-11-2009, 07:48 PM
That's the inherent problem with the BBB. They can't possibly be objective because they survive on keeping you as a member. Why would they ding you if they know you won't join again next year if they do. I think you're pretty safe.

huggytree
08-11-2009, 08:48 PM
Sure hope so Steve

and I wont renew next year if i get Zinged

i checked my rating and it hasnt lowered to a B+ yet, so if i win it probably wont..

dont see how i can lose this one.

its a lesson for everyone to cash disgruntled customer checks...she admitted in her letter that she tryed....she'd get a small claims court date from me if she did.

Ad-Vice_Man
08-14-2009, 04:53 PM
You may want to write up a one page addendum to your contract that you can include with your contract for those who have the Galvanized piping. this addendum would state the risks inherent with working on these older pipes, have them sign off that they've been notified. This is something I'd have them sign once you have the job and are on site.

This might also be an opportunity. You could provide an "optional" service contract in this addendum that will allow someone in this situation to pay you a monthly retainer of $X for a year in lieu of labor costs and travel fee's and maybe some dicounted % on materials.

huggytree
08-14-2009, 06:21 PM
galvanized piping is one of the worst, so i could do that

problem is there's always something that can go wrong....to cover myself id have to have 100 different forms on hand and give out only the ones which apply to each job...

homeowner supplied fixtures are another big problem...people want to take away my markup and still have me fix their supplied fixtures for free....i ALWAYS charge them, but i dont think any of them were happy with the situation...never got a 2nd job or referral from any of those people...I do have a disclaimer for that one....doesnt seem to help

i had a problem a while back with a customer piling up his belongings under where i had to work...i moved everything and got blamed for damaging his guitar(i didnt)...do i need a disclaimer for personal belongings? i work ontop of people junk in basements on 95% of my jobs...

there's just no end to warnings and disclaimers....yes ive learned a couple of things from this and I will make slight changes to how i conduct myself in the future..

people always take a 1 sided view of everything...its human nature..some people will always blame someone else for their problems

A friend of mine just had to take a guy to small claims court....so my worst customer doesnt seem so bad..im lucky this is as bad as its gotten..