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Harold Mansfield
08-22-2016, 05:25 PM
I use to be hooked on 'Shark Tank', and I do still enjoy it. But I think I've pretty much gotten the gist of whatever I'm going to learn from it. That being that ideas are a dime a dozen, and no one cares. What people care about is have you proven the concept, how much skin do you have in the game, and is the product or service saleable to a large audience to make it worth while for an investor. A lot of people go there with nothing more than a small scale idea that is solely about making them money, but not scalable enough for an investor to care.

Now I'm hooked on 'The Profit'. Been binge watching episodes the past week and have learned a lot of things that I didn't know, specifically when he deals with some of the retail shops, and people with products. It also seems less scripted than the others in that he doesn't fund everyone, and there are clear reasons why.

For me the really interesting part is the varying personalities of some small business people. Some are real egomaniacs and control freaks, and some seem to be really genuine and you really root for them to succeed. In almost every case of those who didn't get funded, or failed, the owner was a complete jerk, but they're opinion of themselves were that they were just "driven". Some people have no business managing other humans.

Having been in the bar business I've watched Bar Rescue, but it feels too scripted. I learn more about how successful restaurants operate, and find their niche by watching the shows on Travel and Food Networks.

I'm also hooked on American Greed. I'm still floored that so many people still pull off ponzi schemes and the people they take STILL never see it coming. Amazing.

Do you guys watch any business related TV shows? Do you think you learn anything from them?

Fulcrum
08-22-2016, 05:35 PM
Dragon's Den/Shark Tank a fair bit. I usually watch these for the ideas and businesses that are being presented. The gutsiest ask I saw was for over $50M to build, from nothing (he didn't even have the land under contract), a high end resort with a whole new rating system for hotels and restaurants and a high speed race track. The best part of the presentation was the tool used - easel, cheap and large sketching paper, and what appeared to be a no name brand marker.

I've never heard of "The Profit" and watch "American Greed" when I'm looking for a new show to watch and it pops into my mind.

turboguy
08-22-2016, 10:31 PM
My wife and I both consider Shark Tank to be one of our favorites and never miss it. I can't say I have learned anything from it but it is fun to watch. I think if I were involved with a start up and looking for an angel investor it would help me understand what they look for.

We watched a couple of Dragon Den episodes but didn't really like it that much. They just don't have the energy in that show that Shark Tank does.

The Profit is my total favorite show. I just really enjoy it and do think I have learned from it. I just find some of the things Marcus does to be amazing and I like his people, product process concept. The only problem I have is that it is on CNBC and that isn't in my cable package so I have to work to see it but still have never missed an episode and have watched many multiple times. I believe the new season starts tomorrow. I have also heard he has a spin off show this year called the Partner. It is only going to run 6 episodes but it is about him looking for one person to help him turn companies around with a pay of $ 350,000 and a three year contract. I don't know if I will watch much of it or not.

I like American Greed as well, and watch Mad Money on occasion.

tallen
08-23-2016, 06:23 AM
I really don't watch much TV, but occasionally get to see Shark Tank, one or another of the restaurant make-over shows, Flip-or-Flop, or Income Property... (those last two are about business, right? along with Pawn Stars, Storage Wars, Shipping Wars, and Deadliest Catch... all business-related!) I would really like to see the hotel make-over shows (they'ld be relevant to one of my businesses), but I am old-school (e.g. cable) and always seem to miss them. I suppose if I got with the modern times, I could watch the things I want to see on-demand over the internet....

KristineS
08-23-2016, 02:00 PM
I've seen The Profit and liked it. That's probably one I would watch on a regular basis. I haven't seen any of the others. Although a customer of ours was just on West Texas Investors Club, and I might watch their episode.

turboguy
08-23-2016, 03:59 PM
I haven't been able to see the West Texas Investors Club but listened to a few episodes on my Sirrus Radio when I was traveling and did find it amusing and interesting. They are characters. As I recall in one of the episodes I listened to they were concerned if a woman had enough guts to help her business survive during tough times so they told her they were going to take her snipe hunting and took her out into a snake infested woods and left her all alone with a rifle. She did stay there and passed the test so they did invest with her.

Bobjob
08-24-2016, 09:11 AM
No. I used to catch a couple Shark Tanks but not any more. I find tv to be too scripted. I do watch American Greed. I'm always on the lookout for a video or story online that tells the tale of a business.

tallen
08-24-2016, 11:20 AM
Saw teasers last night for a new business show forthcoming on the Discovery network, "Blue Collar Backers."

Harold Mansfield
08-24-2016, 11:57 AM
Saw teasers last night for a new business show forthcoming on the Discovery network, "Blue Collar Backers."

Looks interesting.
Blue Collar Backers | Discovery (http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/blue-collar-backers/)
I'll be sure to check it out.

Brian Altenhofel
08-24-2016, 01:09 PM
The Profit is one of the few shows I have my Playstation set to DVR. What never ceases to amaze me on there is how many folks are reluctant to make their manufacturing process more efficient by outsourcing it to someone who is in that business or negotiate with their suppliers. Then you have many that don't even know their numbers.

Harold Mansfield
08-24-2016, 01:20 PM
The Profit is one of the few shows I have my Playstation set to DVR. What never ceases to amaze me on there is how many folks are reluctant to make their manufacturing process more efficient by outsourcing it to someone who is in that business or negotiate with their suppliers. Then you have many that don't even know their numbers.

Also one of the things that draw me to that show. It's pretty interesting watching other people struggle with the balance between wanting to keep your vision and suffocating your business by refusing to recognize when something isn't working, or refusing to lean into the curve of where the money is.

It's a really good insight. Watching people feel as if they can't control every single thing and do it all well, that they have somehow failed. That a business owner cannot have so much hubris that he'd rather burn it down his way, than be flexible, listen, learn, and do what works and makes money.

I've seen this first hand so many times. Working for bar or nightclub owners that get into business for personal reasons...they want everything to be all their idea, rather than creating a business that works, customers like, and makes money.

It begs a good question: Is it only successful if every idea is yours, and every process your way? Or is it successful if grows and makes money?

I think sometimes entrepreneurs get caught up in the vision of how they want to run their business, instead of recognizing how their business needs to be run and many can't get out of that rut.

JMO of course.

tallen
08-24-2016, 05:28 PM
I think sometimes entrepreneurs get caught up in the vision of how they want to run their business, instead of recognizing how their business needs to be run....

Great Observation!

Bobjob
08-24-2016, 06:20 PM
What never ceases to amaze me on there is how many folks are reluctant to make their manufacturing process more efficient by outsourcing it to someone who is in that business or negotiate with their suppliers.

It's difficult to let go. It's hard to believe someone else is going to go the extra mile to do it right like you know you would.



Then you have many that don't even know their numbers.

:o We are getting there.

Fulcrum
08-24-2016, 07:59 PM
What never ceases to amaze me on there is how many folks are reluctant to make their manufacturing process more efficient by outsourcing it to someone who is in that business or negotiate with their suppliers.

Even if you were to take the outsourcing out of the equation, or even do some basic maintenance, the number of manufacturers and machine shops that remain in their inefficiencies is staggering. This group ranges from the small home shop machinist (who is inefficient primarily due to size) to the multi-national, publicly traded company that relies on government funds to remain afloat.

When it comes to outsourcing, it's a two-edged sword. They can become more efficient by outsourcing yet at the same time they start the "death by a 1000 cuts" process. Look at the furniture industry in Vermont to see what can happen when mass outsourcing takes place.

Brian Altenhofel
08-24-2016, 08:48 PM
When it comes to outsourcing, it's a two-edged sword. They can become more efficient by outsourcing yet at the same time they start the "death by a 1000 cuts" process. Look at the furniture industry in Vermont to see what can happen when mass outsourcing takes place.

It depends on what you are selling, too.

Are people buying your product for unique craftsmanship? Keep it in house.

Running a CNC mill 10% of the day? Outsource it. 70% of the day? Probably time to bring it back in house.

Does your food need to be fresh or is the customer seeing it done part of the experience? In house. Mass market? Outsource.

Of course, if you're outsourcing, you need to negotiate rates on volume and renegotiate as your volume increases.

Fulcrum
08-24-2016, 09:21 PM
Running a CNC mill 10% of the day? Outsource it. 70% of the day? Probably time to bring it back in house.

If I had the cash to play with, I'd put a CNC mill on the floor. Not entirely certain what I'd do with it, but I like to play with machines (or just watch them run if they're lightening fast and have lots of options).

SocMediaMaven
08-25-2016, 08:27 AM
Shark Tank, but the show is getting stale. (I think I'm still watching for Mark Cuban's infectious smile:o)

American Greed, just to witness the lengths that human beings will go to for money/power. Halfway through the show, I ALWAYS find my self saying "Wow"

Favorite, The Profit. I sense the most sincerity here. It's only been 1 show, but what does everyone think of the new season so far??

Harold Mansfield
08-25-2016, 11:47 AM
Favorite, The Profit. I sense the most sincerity here. It's only been 1 show, but what does everyone think of the new season so far??

I binged watched the first 2 seasons on Hulu last week, and just watched the latest episodes. I'd always seen adverts for the show, but ignored it as just another reality show. Then a buddy of mine posted a clip on Facebook from the upcoming episode with the new owners of Farrell's Ice Cream Shop, a fond childhood memory growing up in the Detroit area. After watching that I searched out past episodes, binged watched for about 3 days and I'm totally hooked on it.

turboguy
08-25-2016, 11:01 PM
I liked the Farrell's episode. I won't say it was my all time favorite but it was a good episode. I think the amount of infighting that goes on in the episodes makes me wonder if some of that is put on. I just can't see a business functioning with so much discord. Of course most of the companies he looks at are not functioning.

It is my favorite program so I was quite happy to see the season start.

Brian Altenhofel
08-26-2016, 03:55 AM
I'm sure the infighting is edited to appear more dramatic. They have to edit a ton of footage down to 42 minutes. Drama sells.

My favorite episodes are the Sweet Pete's and SJC Drums episodes. The Farrell's episode ranks pretty high up there, too, mostly because I know of similar businesses who have made the same major mistakes with their brand.

turboguy
08-26-2016, 09:59 AM
Sweet Pete's and SJC were among my favorites as well. When Marcus was talking about redoing the candy section of Farrell's I thought about Sweet Petes and wondered if that was going to be the source for some of their updated candies but there was nothing about that. I was also a little skeptical about keeping the ice cream colder increasing the quantities of servings as much as they claimed but I have no real idea about that. It just seemed like a bit of a stretch.

I do think some of the drama does make the show more interesting.

I do think watching the show has improved my ideas about how to run a business more than most any business book I have read.

As far as outsourcing I think in most cases the more you can do in house the better. Around 15 years ago or more I came up with a very revolutionary idea that I thought would really take off. Unfortunately I couldn't get the people under me to move on the idea in time to be way ahead of the market. When they finally did get it going they outsourced a lot of things that we could have easily done ourselves and our costs got so high we could not make the product profitably. Not long after we came out with it others did and instead of working to get the costs down it made more sense to just exit the market. Typically anything you out source you are going to pay double or more what it would cost you to do it in house. There are things that need to be outsourced for example when the volume is low and the cost to add the machines to do it in house would be high.

Harold Mansfield
08-26-2016, 11:41 AM
Fuel Food was one of my favorites. That guy was a real piece of work. I'm looking at it and I could clearly see that he was running the company like a hobby. He wanted the big truck, hot girls, loud colors and shouting, and none of that fit with the kind of business he had and the customer he was trying to attract. It looked more like he was running a men's gym in his mind, but never considered that you don't sell food that way. He was also very defensive and intimidating to his people. A no win situation. When someone is aggressive, defensive and intentionally intimidating people, there's no way to fix it. Any attempt falls on deaf ears, escalates it, and makes it worse.

The lobster fast food one was also good. That dude had borrowed money from everyone, and still had no real plan. He was just spending money hoping it would magically work out. He was also a piece of work.

The guy with the skateboards was another. He gave me the feeling that he was hiding something. None of his excuses made sense both with the money, or where he spends his time when he's not at his business or with his family.

None of those people got funded and they all had great ideas, but they were bad managers. Bad attitude, lying, secrets, and defensiveness cannot be fixed with money. That business is going down no matter what you do.

Of the people who do get funded, many have the same problem. Either they don't know how to get it past start up, don't understand their own numbers, their market or how to create a profitable product line , or they hire good people and won't listen to them. Those are all things that can be fixed and from what I've seen those people fixed them and went on to be successful and still are.

SocMediaMaven
08-26-2016, 08:49 PM
Wow that's awesome to hear from someone who actually remembers that restaurant! I swear I wanted to visit Farrell's after watching.

The only other show I've ever binge watched is Scandal...but that's probably another forum😊

Harold Mansfield
08-27-2016, 01:13 PM
Wow that's awesome to hear from someone who actually remembers that restaurant! I swear I wanted to visit Farrell's after watching.

Yep, the used to be big in the metro Detroit area when I was a kid. Mostly at or outside of the major malls. The one at Northland Mall in Detroit ( actually Southfield) was always the place we went after shopping.

Harold Mansfield
09-07-2016, 02:32 PM
Watched more new episodes of The Profit, and it's the same old story when he doesn't invest or walks away. The owner. It's always the personality, arrogance, or bad management skills of the owner and how they treat people that makes him walk away and not invest. Or people who fuse to change anything even though they are running it into the ground.

Very telling. The last guy hid a sexual harassment complaint from him. Seriously, what are these people thinking? Do you really think you can take on an investor and not divulge that kind of important information?

He obviously does his homework before even considering a business. Seems like getting to know the people is just a formality. Amazing how many people are their own worst enemy.

Business Attorney
09-07-2016, 03:24 PM
I've watched The Profit from the beginning but am about 4-5 episodes behind on watching the DVR. The Farrell's episode is still on my "to watch" list.

If you like the show, you should also read the theprofitupdates[dot]com (brought to you by the same guy who has barrescueupdates[dot]com)

I enjoy the show, but I do think some of the drama is overdone. I also think that in several episodes (Sweet Pete's, among others) the original financial backer is painted as a really bad guy. As someone who has advised hundreds of small businesses over the last 40 years, I think the position of the money partner is rarely as one-sided as it is portrayed in the show. Often the person funding the business has become frustrated with the situation that Marcus Lemonis is now walking into fresh. Also, while his investment in the floundering business is often small by comparison to Marcus' investment, the original backers are not nearly as wealthy as Marcus and the loss, to them, is often more significant. I would prefer a more balanced portrayal.

I also understand that the show has to be edited into an hour format, with commercials, but the show drastically downplays the amount of due diligence that Marcus does, and never even mentions the written contracts that are negotiated and signed. If you read the stories in some of the local news sources and the website I cited above, you will see that writing the check and handing it over on a handshake is a complete fiction to make the show more dramatic and to move the pace along.

Finally, as a white knight, Marcus Lemonis has other resources that a typical investor does not have. Those include his existing connections with other entities such as NASCAR, his other businesses (both Camping World and the other investments from The Profit) which can leverage the results, and the staffing assistance both from his own staff and the production staff of the show. In some episodes those are actually played up but in many cases you have to realize that those resources are being brought to bear without much visibility. For example, the re-branding that he does in most episodes, which seems like a simple matter, would be extremely costly for most business.

I also watch Shark Tank regularly, although less than I used to. I think the observations made in this thread are on point. I do think that the show sends some mixed messages. In some cases, they dismiss a supplicant because it is too early and there is no revenue, therefore no proof of concept. In those cases, the message seems to be that you can't ever expect to raise funds based on a great idea. In other cases, where they see the potential of an idea, they fall all over themselves to get in on the ground floor. The truth is that some ideas need to prove that they have legs and others have so much potential that they can attract funding at a much earlier stage.

I also enjoy watching most of the other shows mentioned in this thread, although more sporadically. I used to watch Bar Rescue but the show became formulaic. Different bars, same problems, same fixes. I particularly didn't like the fact that in almost every case, Jon Taffer recommends that the bar become re-branded. To me, that is not fixing a bar as much as it is creating a new bar in an old space with the old staff (except for the usual culprit who is either axed or miraculously reborn).

Harold Mansfield
09-07-2016, 04:31 PM
I kinda figured there were behind the scenes contracts and such. And of course he has resources, and teams and such. I do like how he uses a company that he previously invested in to help out a new company that he's investing in. Kind of a full circle kind of thing.

I find it interesting how he sees opportunity in companies that I wouldn't even consider viable. It's all about scale.

Brian Altenhofel
09-07-2016, 08:06 PM
Finally, as a white knight, Marcus Lemonis has other resources that a typical investor does not have. Those include his existing connections with other entities such as NASCAR, his other businesses (both Camping World and the other investments from The Profit) which can leverage the results, and the staffing assistance both from his own staff and the production staff of the show. In some episodes those are actually played up but in many cases you have to realize that those resources are being brought to bear without much visibility. For example, the re-branding that he does in most episodes, which seems like a simple matter, would be extremely costly for most business.

Just wanted to add an example of where he uses one business he's invested in on the show to benefit another business he's invested in on the show. In one episode, he invests in a business that buys used cars from people. Later (I can't recall if it was the same season or the next season), he invests in a car dealership and switches their model from exotics (that weren't selling) to used cars bought from the other business that buys used cars. To me, that's a good example of how you can invest in multiple related business to make money on each step of the process.


In some cases, they dismiss a supplicant because it is too early and there is no revenue, therefore no proof of concept. In those cases, the message seems to be that you can't ever expect to raise funds based on a great idea. In other cases, where they see the potential of an idea, they fall all over themselves to get in on the ground floor. The truth is that some ideas need to prove that they have legs and others have so much potential that they can attract funding at a much earlier stage.

The ones that tend to get dismissed are those that are going to require a great amount of effort and money just to attempt the approval process once with no guarantee on approval. Some of those processes (especially those involving the FDA) can cost more than what the business is worth. On those, pretty much need to show up with a patent in hand so the sharks can invest in the patent and help license it to someone already in that industry that has the resources and expertise to get those things through the approval process.

There are a lot that go on there just for the Shark Tank Effect. Most of those get dismissed pretty quickly, but there's been others where the sharks play up the product and encourage the business owners to not take an outside investment. There was one I watched within the past few weeks where all five of them said "I love your product, and I'd love to invest in it, but really you've proven that you're better off on your own."

Bobjob
09-09-2016, 05:02 PM
Since I've always believed my business was ripe for consultation (to make the company more efficient), I wondered if there would ever be a business consultation tv show. They come in assess everything, make suggestions and prove (from previous consultations) how their suggestions will make a difference. Then it's up to the owner whether they make the changes or not.

Harold Mansfield
09-09-2016, 05:53 PM
In a way these are consultants. I think a lot of the things they do can be applied across the board. One of the main things I've seen is getting a handle on actual costs, waste and labor. A lot of people were just putting money in the register and had no idea what it costs to do anything. Couldn't tell you what a burger cost to make. Couldn't tell you how much product development cost. No POS system and so on.

SumpinSpecial
11-08-2016, 03:46 PM
I just started watching The Profit (thanks, Harold!) and enjoying it very much. It's very educational. I like that the host Marcus is a down to earth dude with clearly a terrific business sense. I could never get into Bar Rescue because of the host always seeming to make unpleasant faces and being a real jerk to the business owners and staff. Another show I love is Hotel Impossible. Anthony Mercuri is down to earth and knows his stuff, just like Lemoni.

ccody45
11-27-2016, 09:49 PM
I've been watching a lot of Shark Tank and Undercover Boss lately I think i'm becoming addicted to them! haha

extramile
01-12-2017, 09:07 AM
gotta be Shark Tank ftw