Why is it ... (advance warning - depressing thread incoming)

[Fulcrum]

that government agencies never want to address a problem head on. This is getting to the point that I am starting to get angry whenever this topic is brought up.

I'm going to be blunt. I'm going to speak my mind. I'm going to allow my emotions to show rather than keep them to myself. This may come across as preachy, but I'm going to say it anyhow. Attempts to troll will be met with silence (in this case trolls ain't worth my time).

I'm not talking about the corruption, the narcissistic dealings, the nepotism, the double speak, etc, though these actions and many more all play a role in what is going on. These actions don't come from only one party - all parties are guilty of this.

A little over a year ago I posted this thread:
http://www.small-business-forum.net/the-water-cooler/14413-sad-day.html. In the middle of February I added to it following the suicide of a 17 yr old.

On Monday (June 6) of this week a story (https://ca.news.yahoo.com/woodstock-suicides-part-national-problem-050300231.html) hit the national, possibly international, press that there appears to be a problem. Really? There appears to be a problem? 5 teenagers kill themselves and it appears that there is a problem?

There is a problem!! There's no "appears" about it. When they say "appears" I laugh (sadly this isn't a joyous laughter) at the incompetence they show just from their word choices.

I believe that the two deaths I referenced earlier is what kicked off this sequence. In Justin's case, Andrew (the first death in the post) was his best friend. Justin was never able to fully get past this. By the time he hung himself (9 months later) he had lost hope. It is this complete and utter loss of hope, along with the complete moral depravity that is ingrained into humanity, that drives these actions.

Yesterday, a student walkout was held by city hall in Woodstock. I had to physically restrain myself from crashing the walkout and telling the kids to go home or back to class. Government ain't gonna fix this. Education ain't gonna fix this. Not even talking about it is gonna help fix this.

Harsh words? Yep.
Depressing outlook? Absolutely.
Bitter? Guilty as charged.

Why am I angry? Because all I ever hear coming from the "powers that be" is talk. They talk, and they talk, and they talk, and they talk some more. Anything that they do to attempt to fix the issue backfires (non-violence laws had a kid in western Canada being suspended for stepping between a bully and his soon to be stabbing victim). No touching policies in the schools don't allow students or teachers to give a non-sexual hug when the receiver of said hug clearly needs one. They're being taught that they're no better than animals. They're being taught that there is no perfect standard of good. They are being taught that walking away, turning their backs on, or checking out are the best options. They're being taught that the sanctity of human life doesn't exist (look at abortion stats and euthanasia debates). They're being taught that it's a disease, an illness, or one of the various other labels the psychiatric community has given this (talking about it can help, but the approach needs to come from a position of understanding rather than a fixing a broken person position).

These kids see what's going on around them. They see our governments asking for input and then doing what the minority wants even though the majority says don't. They ask what's the point. They get told that they can't effect change (I've been hearing this line being said to myself for as long as I can remember yet never got suspended for fighting back against bullies nor calling a spade a spade when teachers and those in authority are abusing their position). They, often unknowingly, understand something that most of us don't, or refuse to, see. Unfortunately, they choose (yes it is a choice and often includes a fair amount of planning) the only option they see as their only choice. Its a tragic choice and the consequences are final and quite selfish.

I do not have an answer. I can say, with full assurance and knowledge, that there is hope, though it is not rooted in people or governments, nor is it rooted in myself.

I'm not really sure where this is going to go. Maybe this thread will die with only this post (I can live with that btw). All I can say is that this has weighed heavily on me all week and I had to say something.

[Fulcrum]

Some parts of this song really outlines much of what I see and what drove me to write what I did.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9Dg-g7t2l4

[KristineS]

I'm not sure what the solution is to this problem. On one hand, I think openness about some of these issues is a good thing. As someone who experienced bullying in junior high (mean girls can be really mean), I wish I'd had the support and resources that kids who are bullied today have (or at least some of them have). At the same time, I think we may have tipped too far the other way. Some rough and tumble will happen in school. Some kids will not be popular, or won't be asked to prom. That's part of life. You're not always going to fit in or be liked or get picked. Sometimes you lose. Kids needs to be taught to deal with that, and need to figure out how to deal with disappointment and mean people on their own. Support and help is good. Trying to make things other than they are is bad.

On one hand, the openness about depression and different sexual preferences is good. More information and being able to find and connect with your peers and your community is healthy. When I was a kid, I was told "life is tough, get over it". And it was, and there were times I almost didn't make it. "Life is tough" is a hard message, but I'm not sure the messages that kids get today, that they need protection all the time, that all the rough edges should be smoothed over ,are any better.

Like you, I'm not sure I have the answer.

[turboguy]

I don't remember who said it at the moment but someone said "The government can't fix the problem, the government is the problem" I do think the world has gone way downhill and the government is never going to be able to fix it. I think that is part of why Trump has found support. The people are fed up with the government. One of my observations is that the better the sound of the name of a new piece of legislation the worse the actual bill is. For example "no child left behind" which made our education system worse or Affordable Care act which has made health care affordable for a few and unaffordable for far more.

As far as kids go I do think parents are a lot of the problem not just the government and education system. There are too many parents who farm their kids out to daycare in the day and set them off by themselves with a computer at night. Why be a parent if you don't want to be a parent. Our education system does share a lot of the blame. When I was a kid no one graduated from high school who could not read write and do math. Kids too should be taught some of the things they need in life like managing their finances.

The biggest problems with kids when I was in school were chewing gum in class and running in the halls. Now your lucky if a student doesn't bomb your school and drugs are really undermining the world.

The thing all boils down to the fact the world is going downhill fast.

[Harold Mansfield]

Just want to point out that we are talking about 2 different governments. Brad is in Canada, and most of us responding are in America.

[Freelancier]

When I was a kid no one graduated from high school who could not read write and do math
I'm older and, yes, they did. All the time, especially if they could play football. I knew a few of them from my tutoring days. Schools are actually better today at identifying and intervening in that than they were "in the good ol' days".

** Not directed at any one person, so ignore the way pronouns get used below **

Basic truth: If someone is motivated enough to kill himself/herself, he/she will do it, nothing anyone can do about that. You can maybe slow them down, but if they really want to, they'll make it happen at some point. And teenagers with rampant hormones, "Lord of the Flies" social life, and insufficient personal direction are ripe for thinking that suicide is the answer to their tiny problems.

If you want to blame someone, everyone can identify a culprit, but it's all of us who are at fault.

Have we let the distractions and demands in our lives keep us from noticing what's going on around us? Have we lost the art of engaging and interacting with people we don't know? When you think of "community" do you think it's really all those "likes" you get from Facebook or a forum?

I don't blame "government". Unless you're in a totalitarian state, YOU are a part of the government just like I am and everyone around me (and you). Abdicating that responsibility by pointing at "them" doesn't do anything except make you feel better about your lack of action. But there are a lot of demagogues who will take your money and your time to make you feel better about pointing your fingers at "them" and never tell you the truth that you're being a coward for not trying harder. Start by getting off your butt and volunteering to help others in need.

Ok </rant> and now back to our regularly scheduled programming....

[Fulcrum]

Just want to point out that we are talking about 2 different governments. Brad is in Canada, and most of us responding are in America.

How much of a difference is there really? We're all human and have the same basic needs and wants. Both of our countries are seen as bastions of democracy. Supposedly both our countries have great systems. We all know better. The problem isn't the system - the problem is the people. I'm not going to speak about Trump or Clinton because this issue spans across all parties and political flavors.

In Ontario we get called homophobic if we disagree with our premier (equivalent to state governor) over anything. Disagree with her new policy on climate change? You're homophobic and you hate the environment. I don't understand what her sexuality has to do in this case and her climate change plan has nothing to do with "saving" the climate (its about raising funds for infrastructure spending). What's the point in trying to do the right thing when the "powers that be" will do what they want rather than the right thing because its hard and will make the vocal minority livid. The media jumps on this and compounds the problem.

These kids see this. They see through the smoke and the mirrors. When they question things they get told "be quiet, you're just a kid, you don't know anything, you can't do anything about it so don't bother". Hear this often enough and they just give up.

You mention bullying Kristine. Been there. Done that. Got the t-shirt and a few scars on my knuckles as a reminder. I'm truly glad that you're still here and helping share information and experiences to those in business and those starting a business. Like you, I don't see a solution to the bullying problem - especially with the way the system is set up currently (suspend/expel all involved parties rather than find the problem). My own personal opinion is to teach a kid how to fight back (verbally, physically, mentally) as well as understand and accept the consequences that will follow. Expand this out into the business/government world and its mindboggling how often bully and strongarm tactics are used. Disagree with your immediate manager and you're out looking for a new job before you get back to your desk (especially when the manager is wrong). Government is worse. A WASP applying for grants (or even jobs) really doesn't have much of a chance of receiving one (unless a veteran but that's a different topic that I actually can get behind). Black Lives Matter? Absolutely. So do the lives of all races and ethnic backgrounds. Stop the segregation and differentiation.

I was speaking with a bus driver about this on Tuesday morning and pointed out that often these kids just need, and want, a hug. Personal closeness. A strong hand on the shoulder. A tight embrace that asks for nothing in return. Someone to shed a tear with them. They don't want, nor do they need, someone to tell them they're broken. They know they're broken.

Like I mentioned earlier. I'm not really sure where I want this thread to go. All I know is that I'm done being quiet about it. To speak out against sanctioned injustice within the system. This forum may not be the best place, but its a start.

[nealrm]

My 2 cents worth - too many people are expecting others to solve their problems. We expect a national government to handle issue that are occurring in individual homes. THAT IS FOOLISH!!! Support for the community needs to come from the community, they are the ones in a position to help. The national government can give very broad overview of what needs to happen, but the people in the community are those that need to implement.

We are also forgetting that the government is the people and the people are the government. When we say the "government should do something" we should be saying that "we should do something". When we say that "the government should pay to provide something" we should say instead the "we should pay to provide something". Few are willing to step up and do the labor, while many are willing to complain, protest and otherwise harass those that try.

[Harold Mansfield]

I agree that the problem is the people. Many of us are quicker to believe a meme on Facebook than to read anything or do a simple Google search on our own for more information on an issue. Or at the very least verification that the words that someone has put over an image are true.

It took us a while to understand that everything on TV isn't true. It may take us a little longer to realize that the bar is so much lower on the internet and that there is no governing body of fact checkers that reviews every post.

We value too many of the wrong things as instant credibility. Things like having money. Being on TV. Having a website. Having a lot of Twitter followers. It's a bad time for facts and science. Any differing opinion or even proof is seen as some conspiracy designed to trick us.

I don't know what the answer is. It's gets easier and easier to grow a bandwagon with fake outrage and summon them to get their pitch forks because it makes them feel that they are a part of something, and at the exact same time we are getting dumber and dumber.


Jim Jones was successful in getting 900 people to follow him to their deaths in Jonestown. But today, any idiot with a blog and some creative link bait headlines can get hundreds of thousands to repeat a lie and believe it as gospel no matter how absurd, factually incorrect, or logically impossible.

Tech may be the death of us if we don't get past this stage of ignorance.
Just my 2 cents.

[Brian Altenhofel]

[Suicide is] quite selfish.

I would disagree with such a broad generalization. Many of the people that I have known to either commit or attempt suicide were not in a "woe is me" or "life isn't worth living" state of mind. They felt like they were causing an undue burden on those around them. They knew the choice they were making, and they felt it was a compassionate choice for the benefit of those around them. Some even recognized that those around them would be suddenly flung into the grieving process, but rationalized that as short term pain that they would eventually be able to leave behind.

Some were because of addictions that they had attempted many times to overcome, yet always found friends and family making what they perceived as too many sacrifices to try and help them when they relapsed. Some were because of medical issues that were either too expensive to treat or seemingly impossible to diagnose.

That said, I think it happens in clusters among kids because they generally aren't prepared for what the grieving process entails and they aren't allowed to grieve. People react to the death of loved ones very differently, especially when it is a suicide. Some people need time to reflect, process, and reassure themselves that there was probably nothing they could have done and that it wasn't their fault. Others are wired to just suck it up and go on. For kids, they are expected to be back in school the next day. Counseling may be provided, but for some counseling may add more negative emotions to the experience (especially since it's rather public that they're seeking help through the process, yet many peers will treat that as a sign of weakness). To me, that's a problem caused by the Born On Date school system where kids are treated as one-size-fits-all.

[KristineS]

Tech may be the death of us if we don't get past this stage of ignorance.
Just my 2 cents.

Definitely think this is true. It's so easy for disinformation to be put out there now. So easy for things to appear true when they're not. And that leaves aside the whole canvas that is now available for trolls and bullies that wasn't available when I was younger. Yes, I dealt with some mean girls and boys in junior high, but it was in one environment. Once I left, I could go to another environment and they weren't there. They didn't hang out around my house and taunt me. Today, the Internet makes it easy for a bully or a troll to find someone anywhere. And, yes, I've heard the advice that someone who is being trolled or bullied should stay off social media, but that's not solving the problem or putting the responsibility for the situation where it belongs. The world we live in now is a whole new world in terms of how much reach and potential influence people can have, but it's the same old world when it comes to how horrible people can be to each other. I'm not sure how we manage that.

Also, as to the suicide is selfish thing. As someone who has, at times, lived in a darkness that seemed like it would never end, I've thought about it. I've planned how I would do it. At the time I was considering it, the only thoughts in my head were how painful my life was, how worthless I was, and how everyone around me would be happier and living a better life if I was gone. I think most people who have or have had suicidal ideation think this way. People who are feeling good about themselves, barring having a terminal illness, are generally not considering suicide. If you're in a place where you are, you probably hate yourself so much that you're convinced everyone you know would benefit from your absence. Yes, suicide is about stopping pain, but it's not always just about stopping the pain of the person who commits the act.

[Paul]

And that leaves aside the whole canvas that is now available for trolls and bullies that wasn't available when I was younger. Yes, I dealt with some mean girls and boys in junior high, but it was in one environment. Once I left, I could go to another environment and they weren't there. They didn't hang out around my house and taunt me. Today, the Internet makes it easy for a bully or a troll to find someone anywhere.

I think this is very true. Depression in many ways comes from isolation. With today’s youth singular dependence on social media as “the” main format of acceptance it is easy to become isolated.

Was a long time ago but I seem to remember my teen/high school years providing a much wider array of affinity groups that could be the base of acceptance for individuals. You could be a jock (athlete), greaser type, academic , hippie, motor head, theater, artist…or even just a nerd and be part of something where you were accepted. You were not dependent on general acceptance. Even the outcasts could be part of their own group. Of course there was still bullying and rivalries but at least there was less individual isolation.

Perhaps my nostalgic memories are distorted after so many years but it’s just a thought.

[Bobjob]

Kudos to y'all who responded. I would not know where to begin.

[Fulcrum]

Kudos to y'all who responded. I would not know where to begin.

I'll second that. This was more of a vent than anything else for me. For where to start, sometimes it's just a matter of starting (think of hitting the shop floor looking at a weeks worth of work that's been scattered and piled in a helter skelter manner).

Last night I wrote up a post about what I've seen in the media over the shootings in Orlando (I'm now more turned off of Lady Gaga than I was). I wound up not posting because I know it would have been taken out of context and the wounds are too fresh for a harsh post.

[Bobjob]

Venting is good. And although I wouldn't recommend doing it on the internet, I believe this website is a fairly safe place. I've been to specialists to talk about my unhappiness. I think it's good... it's what they are there for.

[Fulcrum]

I believe this website is a fairly safe place.

I've come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as a truly safe place in this world. Believe it or not but it's made things simpler for me. No more having to fight myself to leave it in order to go outside my apartment. No more expecting others to behave and act well, then getting disappointed when they don't. It's also helped me to start calling out BS and posing "authorities" when I see it rather than keeping everything to myself and having those thoughts eating me up.