People are crazy in politics

[Owen]

Sorry to make another post about politics, Harold Mansfield but I wanna share something and get some input c:. Okay, so tonight I went to my first political rally. For the past couple days I have really been looking into politics as a career choice for a couple of reasons. The first being I love politics, I've been interested in it way before business (I used to watch the news when i was in 1st grade just to find out what George W. Bush was doing). I also have my shared love for the business and investing world but I've been torn.

To be completely honest it's been kind of going back and forth in my mind for a very long time. Due to financial problems with Stacktron and reputable problems (we had a huge issue with this website because everyone, that has failed in web hosting, was making a hell storm that I'm 16, yet everyone successful defended me but whatever) I'm not really sure I'm going to be super involved with Stacktron anymore. We'll see, but that's not the point of this topic.

Anyways, I live in Maine, yes, but I also live right on the border from New Hampshire. In Rochester (about 20 minutes from my house) Donald Trump was running a political rally. I've always wanted to see one, and Donald Trump is an A-list celebrity. Plus I have an incredible amount of respect for him so I really wanted to meet him and see him in real life.

Well, I went to this rally. Holy hell it was culture shock. Now in Rochester, i know one of the members is from around here, but the high school is Spaulding High School. Well, a while ago they build a new school but due to the building sinking they moved everyone back to the old school and made the new school a community center. I got tickets online (they were free), and I showed up. After waiting for 20 minutes to get in we went into this huge gym (we sat about 8 rows away from him). I don't know if any of you have been to a political rally, if you haven't keep reading.

So we sit down and this guy sits next to me, he's an independent and we talk about politics and business. I told him I'm really deciding but I'm leaning over democratic, so he asked why I was a republican rally so I said it was because I really want to hear both sides and see Donald Trump. Well, he then said "well don't let anyone here find out you're democratic. That won't turn out well." That was red flag #1. I was with my dad at this thing, he's not political at all, but I needed a ride and he wanted to meet Trump too. So then this radio show host comes on the stage and is talking, it's very innocent. Nothing bad. Then the guest speakers start talking...

The first guy was a local veteran. He sh*t talked democrats, Obama, Obamacare, illegal immigrants, etc. throughout the whole speech and basically bloated about how amazing Trump is. The second was on the New Hampshire State Legislature. He also boasted about how Obama is the antichrist of America and whatever. I knew they were going to trash talk Democrats but it was absolutely out of hand. They sounded like a Comedy Central Roast. The third guy was a retired army guy for NH and he did the same but only worse than anyone else.

Anyways, we waited and then all of a sudden you see flashing lights. The song "we're not gonna take it" came on and Donald Trump came out. He started talking and whatever. He was saying how Bernie Sanders shouldn't be president (everyone would boo). Then he said "if you're a democrat please stand up". I was about to stand but the guy next to me pushed me down and said "if you want to leave alive do not stand up." Red flag #2. I thought this guy was like a borderline serial killer so I asked why. He promptly said "I'm guessing this is your first rally. These people take these elections super seriously." That's not even the worse part.

Now there's this guy with a huge beard. Donald is now answering questions so this guy legit starts quoting a bible verse on greed, money, etc. and then takes flowers and tries to walk towards Trump and throw them at him. Of course, the security intervened. Everyone around me was saying stuff like "he's gonna get his ass kicked" and "what a f'n piece of scum'. Then these guys started screaming something, they were super loud. I don't know what it was. You could tell Trump was getting really annoyed by them but he was trying to keep his cool. Then this guy literally grabs these screaming guys and literally starts a fight. They're screaming at eachother, pushing eachother, and the police are breaking it up. Of course, at the same time Trump isn't saying a word, he's kind like trying to keep his cool so he doesn't make it worse.

Donald is really an excellent speaker. I don't know if it was just me mesmerized of it being Donald Trump the billionaire or he's very good at talking. He made a lot of points and really made me question my democratic status. Even my dad is a full supporter of Trump now. He does have a ton of points, the fact he constantly makes international trades and really knows how this stuff works he could possibly make America rich again and make us a respected country again, but at the same time government really is kind of different than a company.

At the end of the day I just wanted to share my experience and get your input. I'm gonna go to all the candidate's rallies, both democrat and republican. Are all rallies really like this? People fighting and stuff?

[Owen]

On top of that one guy was ranting about how Obama is a muslim and we need to get rid of them. It's all over the news.

Donald Trump: Supporter at Rally Says Obama is Muslim (http://time.com/4039658/trump-obama-muslim/)

[Fulcrum]

Good on you for going out and getting informed. I'm glad that you're taking this seriously rather than blind masses that vote for the name with the most recognition. Research both parties and everyone who is running - both for their current politics as well as their historical politics.

If you ever meet the guy you were sitting beside buy him a coffee. He did the right thing and probably prevented another incident.

[cbscreative]

I've never been to that particular type of rally but your story demonstrates irrational behavior that is a blight to any party. The fact that you couldn't stand up to demonstrate that you're just trying to be balanced and get both sides of the issues is a particularly sad statement for modern politics. It's also why we are apprehensive here about political topics but I for one (and I'm sure Harold feels the same way) don't at all mind civil discussion from your obvious intent to be better informed.

I support keeping this thread open as long as it doesn't degrade and I know from several years of experience that many members here are capable of keeping things informative without resorting to hostile personal attacks. Any such WILL get this thread closed so fair warning is issued.

Owen, I appreciate your attitude and intent here. You're obviously plenty young yet and many in your age group can benefit from interacting with those of us with more life experience. I am much older at 54 but I do not consider myself old. Age is simply a number and I like the stage of life I am at.

Because of my age though, let me share how it used to be in politics. Elephants and Donkeys used to be able to convene and argue issues they needed to make decisions on. Sometimes these discussions could become very heated but at the end of the day, they would go out to dinner together or go out for a drink to celebrate being able to reach a compromise when they couldn't agree. Your experience shows how far we've digressed collectively.

I would like to think it's not as bad as it looks. For one, "A house divided against itself cannot stand." We can disagree all we want but if we become too divided the culture itself cannot endure. To think we're immune to that result is delusional. It has proven true throughout history and the oldest, most effective military strategy is, "Divide and conquer."

[vangogh]

First, good for you for wanting to be informed. Sadly most people aren't.


Are all rallies really like this? People fighting and stuff?

I'm not sure about rallies specifically, but in general that's what politics in this country is like at the moment and it's probably always been the same way. Few people seem willing to listen to "the other side" and would sooner fight over disagreements than try to learn from one another.

Just so you know the reason Harold closed the other thread was because political conversations often get heated for no good reason. People have usually picked a side and once they have they really don't listen. It can easily get out of hand and lead to a lot of hurt feelings.

One thing you want to learn right away about politics, is most everything a politician says is something other than the truth. I don't mean to imply that they're all awful people who lie all the time, but they usually aren't telling you the whole truth. Politicians want to be elected and they want to convince us to vote for them. What they're doing is marketing themselves the same way a business does. It's quite interesting if you can watch and remain objective and just observe how a political campaign works.

Unfortunately we, the voters, are susceptible to negative advertising. We'll say we dislike it, but it works. Because of that candidates will tell you how evil the other candidates are. Its kind of humorous, because the same things are said every campaign. Watch how many times the candidates will tell you how important this election is and how dangerous these times are so we better get it right. They've said the same thing in every election I've ever seen and I'm sure they'll continue saying it in future elections. Politicians are good at convincing you of things. The trick is to learn to see through what they say on the surface.

What usually happens is a candidate will say at a rally just what the people who attend the rally want to hear and then they'll often say different things at a different rally attended by different people with different interests. Understand that politicians are trying to get elected and will say anything to get your vote.

The best way to understand them is to understand marketing and storytelling. Politicians really do the same thing businesses do in telling a story about themselves. For example a lot of people in this country are tired of government in general. There's a feeling that our government doesn't really care about we the people and that most politicians are just more of the same. Donald Trump is running as someone who's an outsider. He's not a politician. His opponents might try to point to his lack of experience as a reason not to vote for him and he'll point to their being the same as the politicians we don't like so you do vote for him and not the other candidates.

Rand Paul wants to tell the same story. It's why he tried to take on Donald Trump in the first debate. They're fighting for the same supporters. On the other hand Jeb Bush is someone who'll come across as more of the same so he needs to tell a different story to win voters. Each of the other candidates also has a story to tell. It's also a balancing act because the story the candidates need to tell to win the nomination for their party isn't necessarily the same story they'll need to tell to win the general election after winning the nomination.

If you can, take a step back from what each candidate says and try to learn the story each one wants to get you to believe. It provides the context for the things they say. Most of the things candidates say are just them trying to reinforce the story they're telling. The bend the truth a lot to fit with the story.

[vangogh]

I also want to add if this thread becomes one where people are arguing about who is or isn't the best candidate or start talking about why this issue or that will save or ruin the world I'll close the thread. Basically if anyone starts making judgements about candidates, parties, issues, etc. I'm closing the thread. That kind of talk leads nowhere except arguments with people.

If you want to have those kind of arguments there are plenty of political forums online. This forum is about small business, not politics.

[CCAdamson]

Glad to hear that someone your age who has a clear interest in business is also making an effort to hear about politics. One definitely influences the other.

People who know me are fully aware of which way I lean politically and I believe I do a solid job of explaining myself when asked. I can't tell you how many times I have had a conversation with someone who opposed my view but couldn't tell me why.

When I talk to those who don't wont because "it won't make a difference" I say poppycock (not really because that is a ridiculous word) but I tell them they should vote. I don't ever tell them who to vote for just that they should vote. I tell them to do exactly what you are doing, take the time to research all of the candidates and choose the one that most aligns with your position.

You may not care about jobs, immigration, and housing but maybe you do care about education, taxes, and the economy. Vote for who most aligns with your ideals.

[Freelancier]

Just don't become one of the "outrage junkies" you saw in the audience... people who are outraged about something all the time aren't good company except to other outrage junkies. It's like being a drug addict, non-addicted people eventually don't find you interesting or fun to be around.

[billbenson]

I'll just make one comment. It's to bad people vote on specific hot buttons for president. The presidents main job is commander in chief. There are also always a number of very global issues he needs to deal with like the economy, jobs, etc. I personally think the president should stay out of special interest issues. It's not really his job.

I also think that people that vote for a president on the basis of his view on their special interest(s) are being very narrow minded. Nobody agrees with everybody on everything.

I'll leave it at that.

[Paul]

I would add study beyond the current candidates.

Get to understand the various philosophies of governance and economics: socialism, capitalism, communism etc. Read Marx, Adam Smith and the federalist papers along with more current political writings. You may find that you will come to your own philosophical conclusion that might supersede a particular candidate’s immediate appeal or at least help to understand what their core philosophy is. Core values and agenda will become more important than personality.

You need to understand the philosophical differences between Bernie Sanders and Ted Cruz and all of the others.

Throw in some history to round it out, at least from the founding through the world wars for some “real world” perspective.
Just my opinion.

[cbscreative]

I support keeping this thread open as long as it doesn't degrade and I know from several years of experience that many members here are capable of keeping things informative without resorting to hostile personal attacks. Any such WILL get this thread closed so fair warning is issued.


I also want to add if this thread becomes one where people are arguing about who is or isn't the best candidate or start talking about why this issue or that will save or ruin the world I'll close the thread. Basically if anyone starts making judgements about candidates, parties, issues, etc. I'm closing the thread.

I'd say that ought to be clear enough.

Unfortunately, vangogh is right about how marketing plays into elections. In previous generations, most people had much longer attention spans and weren't afraid to read a lot and educate themselves. Modern elections are more about getting the best sound bites and spinning things to win votes from people with little or no knowledge of history and no time to really get informed. It's interesting that in an age of information like no past generation has seen, that the general population is the least smart of any one before.

That will probably be a lot less true here since being a business owner requires a certain amount of intelligence, ambition, and willingness to expand your thinking, but my observations of the world around me over the past few decades has not instilled confidence that everything is going to be just fine. Politics will neither save us nor destroy us, it will simply be a reflection of ourselves. If the world were to be ruined, it will take the majority to do it or allow it. If the politicians can fool the majority, then the majority is equally to blame.

It will require getting the US Constitution out of the way for us to blame the politicians. The fact that the Constitution has been trampled on without serious outcry clearly indicates the general public is either uninformed or unconcerned (or both). Regardless of your political position, we are supposed to be agreeing on preserving the document that allows us the freedom of disagreeing with each other. And no matter who gets elected, part of their Oath of Office involves swearing to uphold it. Although the current administration takes a lot of well deserved heat for violating our Constitution, my comments are to previous ones as well, and to all areas of gov't, not just the President. Ultimately, it's us who are supposed to hold their feet to the fire.

I believe it was Thomas Jefferson who said, "If government fears the people, there is liberty. If people fear the government, there is tyranny."

[Fulcrum]

Unfortunately, vangogh is right about how marketing plays into elections. In previous generations, most people had much longer attention spans and weren't afraid to read a lot and educate themselves. Modern elections are more about getting the best sound bites and spinning things to win votes from people with little or no knowledge of history and no time to really get informed. It's interesting that in an age of information like no past generation has seen, that the general population is the least smart of any one before.

I can't say that I noticed the sound bites until this year. Up here in Canada, we have a general election in about 6 weeks and I'm concerned that the media bias is what will determine the winner in our 3 party system. I'm still trying to figure out why the main stream media is trying to make it appear that our current prime minister is at fault for the 3 year old Syrian boy that drowned a few weeks ago (shouldn't use the word "why" but I'm not sure how to phrase this differently).

For those who don't know our system, 1 vote will have a 3 part effect:
1) Determines who gets elected at the local (riding) level
2) Majority of seats (ridings) won determines ruling party (if 50% - 1 than opposition can band together and over ride ruling party)
3) Leader of the winning party, especially in a majority situation, has "absolute control" with no legal recourse to force a recall vote and the ability to appoint senators (aka - party supporters), when there are vacancies, for life/retirement.

[turboguy]

I do find it interesting that the three Republican candidates that are highest in the polls are the three that are not politicians. Personally I think the American public are a little fed up with career politicians and don't think much of any of them.

[billbenson]

I do find it interesting that the three Republican candidates that are highest in the polls are the three that are not politicians. Personally I think the American public are a little fed up with career politicians and don't think much of any of them.

Wile that is interesting, don't you think that you need someone who needs to know how to play the game. Everybody is frustrated by the gridlock in Washington. But I would at least like to see someone who knows how to play the Washington game. Otherwise you are hiring a plumber to fix your car.

[turboguy]

That is a good point Bill. On the other side of the coin most of the politicians we have been complaining about know how to play the game.

I was just trying to think of presidents who were not politicians. I don't think Ike was not and he was excellent. The only other I can think might fit that would be Grant and he was terrible. I really think that someone who really cares about the country and doing a good job would get very frustrated with playing the game. It isn't about the people it is about whatever keeps them in power or benefits them in some way.

[billbenson]

That is a good point Bill. On the other side of the coin most of the politicians we have been complaining about know how to play the game.

I was just trying to think of presidents who were not politicians. I don't think Ike was not and he was excellent. The only other I can think might fit that would be Grant and he was terrible. I really think that someone who really cares about the country and doing a good job would get very frustrated with playing the game. It isn't about the people it is about whatever keeps them in power or benefits them in some way.

The partisan policies have got to change or we are going to kill ourselves as an international force. Economically and militarily. When you taike out the extremest views, which in many cases people have their right to have, we have to come to some agreement on something that is the best for the country as a whole.

Politicians want to get elected.
Extremists vote on their positions.

I hope this isn't taking this thread over the edge, but my mom, who is 91 will vote for whoever her pastor tells her to vote for. That's not a way to pick who you are going to vote for.

[cbscreative]

I do find it interesting that the three Republican candidates that are highest in the polls are the three that are not politicians. Personally I think the American public are a little fed up with career politicians and don't think much of any of them.

I think you could very well be right.


Wile that is interesting, don't you think that you need someone who needs to know how to play the game. Everybody is frustrated by the gridlock in Washington. But I would at least like to see someone who knows how to play the Washington game. Otherwise you are hiring a plumber to fix your car.

To that I would just point out, look where having those who know how to play the game has gotten us.

Unfortunately, that just leaves us where any reasonable discussion of the subject seems to arrive at. The system stinks and even the people with the best of intentions get in there and find there's little they can accomplish because of it. We the people are seemingly left feeling the situation is pretty much hopeless.

If I can add one thing to the discussion without stirring a hornets nest, it is my view that one of the primary problems is that the system long ago got taken over by lobbyists. Now it's a necessary evil that if you want to change anything you need a lobbyist. I would go so far as to say that as long as lobbying (especially ludicrously high paid lobbying) determines policy and tax code, of the people, for the people, and by the people is little more than empty words.

BTW, are you aware of one group that doesn't truly have a lobbyist? It's small business.

I'm not trying to be all negative but those are the facts. I have my ways of staying positive in a sucky world but that's another topic.

[billbenson]

I think you could very well be right.



To that I would just point out, look where having those who know how to play the game has gotten us.

Unfortunately, that just leaves us where any reasonable discussion of the subject seems to arrive at. The system stinks and even the people with the best of intentions get in there and find there's little they can accomplish because of it. We the people are seemingly left feeling the situation is pretty much hopeless.

If I can add one thing to the discussion without stirring a hornets nest, it is my view that one of the primary problems is that the system long ago got taken over by lobbyists. Now it's a necessary evil that if you want to change anything you need a lobbyist. I would go so far as to say that as long as lobbying (especially ludicrously high paid lobbying) determines policy and tax code, of the people, for the people, and by the people is little more than empty words.

BTW, are you aware of one group that doesn't truly have a lobbyist? It's small business.

I'm not trying to be all negative but those are the facts. I have my ways of staying positive in a sucky world but that's another topic.

The unfortunate thing is 'we the people' are a bucket of idiots. We elect people, as I said above, on our own special interests, not on overall skill. Yes, there are a few educated voters, but very few. We don't need someone who you agree with on everything, we need someone who is smart with the skill set to do the job.

[cbscreative]

The unfortunate thing is 'we the people' are a bucket of idiots.

Funny and true. If anyone has any doubts about that, all you have to do is go out for a drive; provided you live in a place where the roads aren't empty anyway.

Just keep George Carlin's words in mind when measuring driver intelligence: "Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?" I can assure you I have no problem with all the idiots considering me a maniac.

On the more serious side, you don't have to drive very far to see stupid. Just something as simple as using turn signals/indicators is beyond the intelligence of a lot of drivers. The one that really floors me is when they had to pass laws prohibiting texting and driving. The fact that they needed such laws shows the degree of stupidity out there.

[Owen]

The unfortunate thing is 'we the people' are a bucket of idiots. We elect people, as I said above, on our own special interests, not on overall skill. Yes, there are a few educated voters, but very few. We don't need someone who you agree with on everything, we need someone who is smart with the skill set to do the job.

Couldn't agree more. It's funny, really. I stress out about these things and I won't even be able to vote :)

[Harold Mansfield]

My only advice is to search out actual facts. Don't rely on carefully edited video, sound bytes, social media, and cheap blogs for factual information. Just because 50 people say it, or 100 blogs post the exact same headline doesn't mean it has any truth to it at all.

Use your resources. Use the web. You don't have to listen to what someone else says about a bill, you can read the actual bill for yourself.
Today's game is about sensationalism and propaganda and people and organizations with agendas have no problem lying to promote them.

It's dependent on people not reading or learning anything for themselves.

I don't care what "side" you're on, just base your decisions on facts and actually vote.

Just my 2 cents.

[Fulcrum]

Speaking of crazy, check this story out

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-buzz/votes4nudes-canadian-instagram-campaign-will-send-183021671.html

[LogansWalk]

If you provide proof that you voted in a direct message to the account, you will receive a nude photo from one of the men and women running the campaign, based on your sexuality.
I'd definitely pass on this, no telling what atrocities you might see depending on whose picture you get!

[LogansWalk]

To add more to the circus vibe of this election, it seems a Jeb Bush staffer was a plant at an event on Monday:


The real estate billionaire took to Twitter to shame Bush for his alleged involvement in the abrupt questioning. "The arrogant young woman who questioned me in such a nasty fashion at No Labels yesterday was a Jeb staffer! How can he beat Russia and China?" he tweeted Tuesday. "How can Jeb Bush expect to deal with China, Russia and Iran if he gets caught doing a 'plant' during my speech yesterday in New Hampshire?"

However, the Bush campaign responded to the accusations Tuesday, confirming Batchelder has volunteered for the campaign, but denied having any involvement in her questions during the No Labels event, according to NBC.

"Like many in New Hampshire, Lauren is a student at St. A's who is passionate about and active in politics and attended this event on her own accord. While this question was not sanctioned by the campaign, we can't help but notice Mr. Trump does seem to be very sensitive about being challenged by women," a Bush aide told NBC.



Donald Trump Accuses Jeb Bush of Planting Lauren Batchelder in Crowd to Harrass Him - Mic (http://mic.com/articles/126702/donald-trump-accuses-jeb-bush-of-planting-lauren-batchelder-in-crowd-to-harrass-him)

Disclaimer: I'm not a Trump supporter - or any politician/combatant in this race, for that matter!

[Paul]

One thing to be said for Trump is that he doesn’t seem to “screen” the people at his events considering some of the questions he gets. Unless of course he plants the “plants” to create the controversies that get him on the news! Tricky devil.