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huggytree
05-29-2009, 04:58 PM
I had a job yesterday where i installed the plumbing fixtures on a remodeled bathroom.

everything was new except the toilet. I warned the homeowner that when a toilets sits it drys out the seals & they shrink , so its common that they leak...$100 for a new 'basic' toilet....homeowner said NO (old toilet was a $40 toilet)

Sooooo ...i install the old toilet...it leaks.....seal from tank to bowl drips...i get out my socket set...1/2 turn......craaaacccckkkkk...tank cracks in 1/2...water everywhere...

who's fault is it?

builder picks up a new one...i detatch and reinstall for free....at first i say that homeowner should pay....this morning i call back and say ill pay.

builder says homeowner was upset and its a good thing to work with us on it...$108 is my cost....builder is my favorite customer.

correct decision?

it hurts when its not really my fault...but from the homeowner point of view it was....

how to solve this problem in the future?

if it leaks cost to rebuild? $200-300 to go get parts and rebuild instead of tightening...maybe next time they will buy new.

vangogh
05-29-2009, 07:05 PM
I think you made the right decision. It's not a big loss to keep your favorite customer happy. You'll get the money back many times over.

The only things I can think to prevent this in the future probably aren't good solutions, but here they are. You could simply refuse to install the toilet telling the customer you know that it will cause problems. Granted the customer won't be happy, but you won't be dealing with a cracked tank. The other option is to have the customer sign some kind of waiver absolving you of any problems before installing the toilet. Again not an ideal solution and one that probably leaves the customer unhappy.

Otherwise I think all you can do is your best to explain the potential problem. Maybe even a few times so the customer is prepared for something happening before it does. You could actually share the story of this current customer.

huggytree
05-29-2009, 09:21 PM
i could just tell them i dont repair toilets, so if it leaks i will turn the water off & drain it and you can call my repair friend to fix it for $200+

i dont have a problem saying that when its a direct homeowner job, but a job for a builder i wouldnt say that. it comes off as an attitude thing...which i do have....i dont like people saving $100 on a $20,000 project at my expense...i dont like reusing plumbing fixtures..its always a problem.....garbage disposals are another thing i wont reuse...i put a disclaimer in the bids that if it leaks i walk away....i guess i need to add toilets to that list....when homeowner want to reuse faucets i refuse to reuse the drains (i supply new)...its all about being a fairly new business and making policies to cover myself.

if i tell a builder that i dont rebuild toilets they may find a new plumber who will remodel that bathroom AND rebuild that toilet....why get 2 plumbers involved will be their thinking. i need to be careful not to Over cover myself and lose business from it.

i left this same post on a plumbing website and someone came up with a scarier situation...it didnt crack until a few seconds after i tightened it....what if it would have cracked 1 week later, what if no one was home....$40,000 in damage from flooding the house?...who'd be responsible?

Ive had a couple of jobs this year where a homeowner refused my advice and I installed something that i knew was wrong on some level.....i need to start getting the homeowners to sign off on refusing my advice..thats a new form i need to create on Microsoft Word this weekend and keep several copies on my van.

vangogh
05-30-2009, 01:38 AM
I wonder if simply mentioning the waiver form would get some people to change their minds and let you install the new toilet. I understand the position you're in, but you also shouldn't be put into the position of having to install something you know is going to have problems. Even if it's not your fault the customer is going to see it as your fault. It's a no win position for you.

Steve B
05-30-2009, 07:13 AM
I like the idea of a waiver form when working with older equipment. It is a great way to cover yourself for things like this. I'm sure a 1/2 turn wouldn't have broken the toilet except for the fact that it was old and probably already tightened down as much as possible in the past. But, since the homeowner wasn't turning the wrench and a professional agreed to do it - it can only be considered your responsibility without such a waiver in advance.

phanio
05-30-2009, 08:15 AM
Waivers are good from the business point of view but not good from the customers point of view - they send up red flags thinking you work is not that good.

Instead of saying you don't repair toilets - why not tell your builder or the homeowner that you ONLY work with new material - unless YOU determine that older materials can be substituted - you can say you are looking out for them and will try to save them as much as you can (now and in the future).

phanio
05-30-2009, 08:16 AM
One more thing - mark up the cost you are out and your labor - makes a good write off.

greenoak
06-01-2009, 07:48 AM
i think you did the best thing....maybe if you forsee something like this you could warn them more and get them on board with the bad decision more.. but in general i would play it by ear and refuse when you have to or at least push harder on who has to pay if it goes bad..........and not try to lay on lots more rules...
...my carpenter would avoid this in this way...... he would have said ...ill do it but if it doesnt work you will have to pay....making the results clear and my responsibility before the thing broke.. ...and i would believe him...but thats because of a long and good relationship...
ann

huggytree
06-01-2009, 08:47 PM
thanks Greenoak,

i like your idea the best..lay out ahead of time who will pay if something happens...

too many rules= someone no one will work with.

its still bothering me how he got a free toilet & 1/2 hour of free labor......ill remember this one for a while and hopefully not make the same mistakes. The builder called me today, so they are still happy with me...better to lose $108 and gain/hold $100,000 i always say!

Steve B
06-01-2009, 09:42 PM
You're looking at it wrong. Don't let it bother you ... look at it as an opportunity to grow your business. Who wouldn't pay $108 to solidify a relationship with a great, potentially on-going customer? I've dropped 10 times that much on advertsing with zero results. You got a bargain! You should break more toilets!!!

Dan Furman
06-02-2009, 12:29 AM
You're looking at it wrong. Don't let it bother you ... look at it as an opportunity to grow your business. Who wouldn't pay $108 to solidify a relationship with a great, potentially on-going customer? I've dropped 10 times that much on advertsing with zero results. You got a bargain! You should break more toilets!!!

Indeed. Or it was a cheap lesson (said in my best "Mr. Brady" voice)

Ad-Vice_Man
06-02-2009, 10:02 AM
There's always the option of factoring in the cost of a new toilet & labor into the price of reinstalling/repairing the old toilet. Then when they still opt for the old, "oopps it broke" everyone is a winner.

Vivid Color Zack
06-02-2009, 01:35 PM
Your original worry was with the seals leaking right? Not the bowl cracking?

Is this an uncommon incident? Was it just bad luck or do old toilets often break like that when being reinstalled?

I think full disclosure in the beginning about your worries should be enough to justify charging them after it breaks. I think you're doing the right thing though, if you could have been relatively sure this would happen and you did it anyway I would say it's on you, but you couldn't really have guaranteed this right? It was somewhat of a fluke?

huggytree
06-03-2009, 08:49 PM
its just one of those things which happens every couple of years

toilet was the cheapest one you can buy which is the main cause

the bolts were already too tight, so when it leaked it couldnt be tightened more.

will it happen again someday? yes

builder had me go visit another jobsite w/ 2 waterheaters not working...flood damage house...i told him im not a repair plumber...he said go anyways...i couldnt get either to work, saw rust inside the burner of one of them....recommended replacement $2500

got a call the next day....homeowner sent his own plumber and got both running in under 5 minutes....then he asked me again how the toilet cracked....im now alittle worried about the situation...ill see if he calls me for the next job....

im on a bad luck streak lately...most of it is not my fault, just bad luck...

Ad-Vice_Man
06-08-2009, 09:41 AM
Huggy,

You specifically told him you're not a repair plumber. Twice.

If he asks why the other guy got it working in 5 minutes and you couldn't/wouldn't remind him you're not a repair plumber and you went out to the site as a favor.

It's like asking your dentist to fix your broken arm... sure he has an x-ray machine and could see if it was broken and might be able to set it, but it would be better to go to an orthopedist.


its just one of those things which happens every couple of years

toilet was the cheapest one you can buy which is the main cause

the bolts were already too tight, so when it leaked it couldnt be tightened more.

will it happen again someday? yes

builder had me go visit another jobsite w/ 2 waterheaters not working...flood damage house...i told him im not a repair plumber...he said go anyways...i couldnt get either to work, saw rust inside the burner of one of them....recommended replacement $2500

got a call the next day....homeowner sent his own plumber and got both running in under 5 minutes....then he asked me again how the toilet cracked....im now alittle worried about the situation...ill see if he calls me for the next job....

im on a bad luck streak lately...most of it is not my fault, just bad luck...

huggytree
06-08-2009, 08:19 PM
true im not a repair plumber, but most people want only ONE plumber...not 1 for repairs, one for residential, one for commercial....

i have to try to push my knowledge in every direction these days to keep work coming.

i know absolutely nothing about repairing water heaters...Absolutely Zero...i should have declined.

Ad-Vice_Man
06-09-2009, 04:30 PM
Perhaps you should hire a repair plumber, or have one oncall as a subcontractor to handle the repair business when it becomes necessary?


true im not a repair plumber, but most people want only ONE plumber...not 1 for repairs, one for residential, one for commercial....

i have to try to push my knowledge in every direction these days to keep work coming.

i know absolutely nothing about repairing water heaters...Absolutely Zero...i should have declined.

huggytree
06-09-2009, 08:55 PM
im not busy enough to hire anyone, but when i do Sooommmee Day I may hire a journeyman who knows repairs better than me.

I have a friend who i usually send the jobs i dont know enough to do. Hes a competitor, but he's more service with alittle remodeling while im 1/2 new 1/2 remodel w/ alittle service....i never directly compete with him...in return for my leads he give me weekly advice on service issues...he's my instructor....ive given him thousands on tips.

i dont know how to find one as a subcontractor? it would have to be someone in a unmarked van...id basically be hiring another plumber and adding 20% to the bill....hmmm something to consider....i push myself all the time to learn service...slowly im doing it.

i wish there was a water heater class to teach repairs

Ad-Vice_Man
06-10-2009, 11:20 AM
There may be... contact your local Community or Tech College and A) see if they offer something or B) can direct you to a resource.


im not busy enough to hire anyone, but when i do Sooommmee Day I may hire a journeyman who knows repairs better than me.

I have a friend who i usually send the jobs i dont know enough to do. Hes a competitor, but he's more service with alittle remodeling while im 1/2 new 1/2 remodel w/ alittle service....i never directly compete with him...in return for my leads he give me weekly advice on service issues...he's my instructor....ive given him thousands on tips.

i dont know how to find one as a subcontractor? it would have to be someone in a unmarked van...id basically be hiring another plumber and adding 20% to the bill....hmmm something to consider....i push myself all the time to learn service...slowly im doing it.

i wish there was a water heater class to teach repairs

Paper Shredder Clay
06-11-2009, 05:54 PM
That's good advice, I think. My buddy works at Wal-Mart and tells me that their Tire / Lube department will not change oil or tires, if the check engine light is on, under no circumstances. This seems dumb, but not really as there are people out there crooked enough to say hey, it worked when I brought it there. Cover yourself. Either refuse the work, or get a waiver. Good advice.


I think you made the right decision. It's not a big loss to keep your favorite customer happy. You'll get the money back many times over.

The only things I can think to prevent this in the future probably aren't good solutions, but here they are. You could simply refuse to install the toilet telling the customer you know that it will cause problems. Granted the customer won't be happy, but you won't be dealing with a cracked tank. The other option is to have the customer sign some kind of waiver absolving you of any problems before installing the toilet. Again not an ideal solution and one that probably leaves the customer unhappy.

Otherwise I think all you can do is your best to explain the potential problem. Maybe even a few times so the customer is prepared for something happening before it does. You could actually share the story of this current customer.

huggytree
06-11-2009, 09:32 PM
Walmart also wont change a tire if a bolt is missing...they dont want to be responsible for the tire falling off and being blamed