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theDIfellas
05-28-2009, 07:05 PM
Im looking for some input on this--helped co-found a small business. We're trying to be very professional about everything we do.

We have a single product right now but want to promote it the best way possible. Brochures will be great for this; what software is best?

Please note, I am fresh out of college and not super tech-savy. I know photoshop, excel, powerpoint basic programs like that.

Blessed
05-28-2009, 07:09 PM
Congratulations on starting your new business. I highly recommend that you hire a professional designer to create your brochures for you. Someone who can show you samples of their previous work and is willing to talk to you about your product and figure out the best way to work with you on the marketing.

vangogh
05-28-2009, 09:41 PM
Congrats on starting a business. Hiring a professional is definitely one option and if you can afford it I'd suggest going that route. It really won't cost much and the return will be well worth the expense.

With software the two big programs for designing print work are InDesign and QuarkExpress, however you could design something in Photoshop. Many printers will give you a template to show you how big your image needs to be and where the cuts and folds will be. It would be up to you to ensure your design fit within the measurements.

You can check the sites of some online printers and we have a few printers here who could probably offer some advice.

Still the wisest course may be to hire a professional designer.

Remipub
05-29-2009, 02:24 AM
We're trying to be very professional about everything we do.

That statement alone is why I'd strongly recommend you hire a professional designer. For one thing, it would be a lot cheaper than buying the really good (high end) desktop publishing software.

Many, many times I see people try to do their own design and the results are rarely what they expect. If you want to look professional, and you don't have the tools, experience and training to do the job right I really don't think there's another "good" option.

I hear Blessed does good work! ;)

rezzy
05-29-2009, 12:35 PM
I would like the echo everyones statements for the simple fact that, just because it looks good on your screen, a printer may not render it that way.

I found this out the hard way. I was having some things printed up for my wedding, which will be here in a few weeks! I use shadows and gradients which did not print how I envisioned. Just like monitors can change mutate colors, printers can change them.

For professionalism, an expert will always do better then you can attempt. I am speaking from experience.

phanio
05-30-2009, 08:21 AM
There are many printing companies that are not only affordable but can help you with layout and design. Plus, many of these companies can also mail out your offerings at bulk rates much easier and faster than you can (save you time as well as money).

We have always used MS Publisher but we have a very good printer (which I think is key).

theDIfellas
06-02-2009, 02:27 AM
Have you guys gone to professionals for this stuff? Have any good experiences with certain companies?

I feel like I want to give them a rough or lay out of some sort but at the same time maybe they'll have the better creativity.

Patrysha
06-02-2009, 09:36 AM
I work closely with a local printing shop for the brochures I am hired to create.

So I give her a rough outline of what I want it to look like and the designer finishes off the layout to give it a more polished appearance. Sometimes she'll move copy around and we go back and forth on what is going to be most effective...or she'll have an idea on how to make it better by completely changing the graphics look. She knows graphics better than I do and I know copy & marketing better than she does, so working together helps us put out a high quality brochure based on our combined strengths.

The graphic designers I've worked with appreciate having a rough draft so they know which direction to aim in rather than stabbing blindly in the dark not knowing what the client is after. Many clients come in not knowing what they want at all...just knowing that they need *something* but provide no direction on what they want. It takes drilling down to find the purpose and target market before any work can even begin...which can be frustrating with some projects. So yeah, take your rough in and give them as much information as you can for them to work with.

vangogh
06-02-2009, 09:52 AM
Give your designer as much info as possible including a layout if you have something in mind. Do listen to your designer if they suggest something different from what you were thinking. But the more info you can provide the better.

Paper Shredder Clay
06-02-2009, 11:09 AM
Most people have already answered your question, but I agree with they say about InDesign and Photoshop. I get my brochures and business cards printed from an online company and they supply their users with templates that you can use in Illustrator and Photoshop.




Im looking for some input on this--helped co-found a small business. We're trying to be very professional about everything we do.

We have a single product right now but want to promote it the best way possible. Brochures will be great for this; what software is best?

Please note, I am fresh out of college and not super tech-savy. I know photoshop, excel, powerpoint basic programs like that.

KristineS
06-02-2009, 12:42 PM
Having a rough design is a great idea because it gives the printer and designer somewhere to start. I know my designer hates it when I say "just come up with something". It's far easier when there's at least a rough idea of where we want to head.

Professionalism also counts for a lot with printed materials. It's worth the money to have someone who knows what they're doing create your materials.

Vivid Color Zack
06-04-2009, 02:28 PM
Have you guys gone to professionals for this stuff? Have any good experiences with certain companies?

I feel like I want to give them a rough or lay out of some sort but at the same time maybe they'll have the better creativity.

I think your best bet is to post an ad on craigslist or find someone here and see who replies with something you like. Most of the cheapest online printers are not well equipped to provide you with the service it sounds like you need. There really is a lot of trial and error involved with designing. Even if you have the right programs I wouldn't expect that you'd be able to produce a high quality result without a few weeks or months of practice, probably involving a few botched print jobs in the process.

Give a designer a napkin sketch of what you want, give them parameters of what they can have some freedom with and what you need them to include. Anybody decent should be able to come up with something you'll be happy with. Most designers work with a printer they like already, and designers have access to print pricing that is WAY below retail, so you should be able to work on price.

theDIfellas
06-06-2009, 03:29 AM
^^ this is all very good advice fellas/ppl. Thanks.

I feel a lot better knowing that its normal giving a designer a rough/first draft or idea of what you like. I definitely have certain colors in mind and will have them look at our website and a couple other things we've done for some guidance.

I'll update you guys whenever possible. This entrepreneurial work never stops but I digggg it! :]

billbenson
06-10-2009, 05:17 AM
From the original post:

Brochures will be great for this; what software is best?

13 posts, many of which know the answer to the original posters question. I'm sitting on the sidelines and don't need a brochure, but am interested in what the software recommendations are.

To summarize the 12 responses: 'hire a professional'

Might be good advice, but a decent post should answer the posters question as well as other people who might be reading.

12 responses and nobody had the courtesy to answer the posters question. Pretty amazing.

Patrysha
06-10-2009, 09:16 AM
Bill I think if you were looking at software my recommendation would be InDesign for brochure development. Most people find it a little steep in price for what they will use it for though and the learning curve can be a big one. Those are just two reasons most would recommend a professional over do it yourself on a project like a brochure.

vangogh
06-10-2009, 12:50 PM
12 responses and nobody had the courtesy to answer the posters question. Pretty amazing.

Bill check my original post. I both recommended a professional and recommended software. A few other people did recommend software as well. Yes most people recommended a professional, but some did also answer the question directly.

Software mentioned in this thread:

InDesign (twice)
QuarkExpress
Photoshop (twice)
MS Publisher

Vivid Color Zack
06-10-2009, 10:41 PM
To summarize the 12 responses: 'hire a professional'

Might be good advice, but a decent post should answer the posters question as well as other people who might be reading.

12 responses and nobody had the courtesy to answer the posters question. Pretty amazing.

Would you prefer we give him this answer?

"Use photoshop for the images and indesign for the text/overall layout."

And then leave him in the dark thinking he knows what to do and then get in way over his head? Or should we write a tutorial for him explaining every step?

This is like someone asking what explosive is best when demolishing a building (on a lesser scale but you get the idea). Would we be best to tell him the right way to do it or should we just give the info he wants and leave him on his own, regardless of potential consequences?

Blessed
06-11-2009, 02:22 PM
Boy am I late in coming back to this thread...


I hear Blessed does good work! ;)

just wanted to say Thanks Remipub I appreciate the kind words!

Blessed
06-11-2009, 02:33 PM
As to Billbenson's question as to why I, among others, simply said "hire a professional" rather than recommending software - I think Steve and Zack pretty much answered that. I do recommend QuarkXPress or InDesign for brochure design but like Zack pointed out - simply mentioning the software certainly doesn't really help in this situation. We've got a guy just starting out who wants to do things right so he asks a question. Since he wants to do things "professionally" the correct answer to his question is "hire a professional graphic designer" not "buy such-and-such software."

Good brochure design is so much more than simply using the right software. It also entails paying attention to the following details... and so much more:
- Are the images a high-enough resolution,
- do you have the panels set up correctly so that when the brochure is printed it will fold right - because you can't simply divide your sheet into three equal pieces and have it work right
- Is your copy easy to read
- what kind of fonts are you using
- are you developing your "brand" by keeping your marketing materials consistent, are there other things the brochure needs to "go with"
- do you want to be able to mail this brochure...

Anyway - you get my point. Good brochure design, or design of any other marketing material is so much more than just using the "right" software.

I wish the DIFellows lots of luck with their venture!

vangogh
06-11-2009, 03:03 PM
Bill we're all ganging up on you now :)

I do understand your point. When I was originally looking through the thread I did notice people saying hire a designer without offering any software recommendations and I thought people could have done both. I did try as did a few others.

Sometimes once a couple people reply like that everyone else tends to follow. I've seen that happen on other threads and other forums.

Remipub
06-13-2009, 11:27 PM
Not to mention, simply naming some software options would probably do more harm than good. When you're starting out a new business, you want to do it right (as much as possible anyway) the first time. What's the saying? "You can't make a second first impression."

billbenson
06-18-2009, 05:19 AM
My apologies, I missed your recommendation VG which was reinforced in a post or two after yours. In fact, I think your response was good in that it recommended hiring a professional, but also stated the two professional programs commonly used.


Would you prefer we give him this answer?

"Use photoshop for the images and indesign for the text/overall layout."

And then leave him in the dark thinking he knows what to do and then get in way over his head? Or should we write a tutorial for him explaining every step?

This is like someone asking what explosive is best when demolishing a building (on a lesser scale but you get the idea). Would we be best to tell him the right way to do it or should we just give the info he wants and leave him on his own, regardless of potential consequences?

No, I feel the proper response would be:

The two most common programs used by professionals are InDesign and QuarkExpress. They are expensive and design using these programs takes a lot of experience. Your best bet is to use a professional who is familiar with these programs. If you are interested in learning these programs try some of the tutorials at "link".

Zack, if I understand you correctly, you are in favor of withholding information from the poster because he will certainly fail if he tries to do it himself. There may in fact be other people reading this post who would like to learn a program to do this. You are also advocating not helping them or the original poster.

"This is like someone asking what explosive is best when demolishing a building (on a lesser scale but you get the idea). "

No, this is like taking away school books from a kid who may be interested in learning.

vangogh
06-18-2009, 12:33 PM
No worries Bill. Like I said I thought the answers in this thread could have been better too. I think everyone had good intentions by recommending professional design and I do agree that hiring a designer will be the best solution, but no reason not to mention some software for those who are going to do the work on their own.

Vivid Color Zack
06-19-2009, 02:11 PM
Zack, if I understand you correctly, you are in favor of withholding information from the poster because he will certainly fail if he tries to do it himself. There may in fact be other people reading this post who would like to learn a program to do this. You are also advocating not helping them or the original poster.

Ok fair enough. I was more so trying to reenforce that professional design was probably necessary, as other people had already mentioned the programs and I didn't need to restate them.

Not meaning to come off as unhelpful, but when you constantly receive files that are not print ready from people who design on their own and have to either turn them away or spend your time fixing their work you become kind of sensitive to the whole issue. I want people to be able to meet their deadlines and end up with a product they can be proud of - and not have to surprise them with extra charges for design work on a piece they felt was print ready. I can almost 100% promise you that it's not going to work out if they take on the task on their own.

OP - Pay to have it designed. Take a design class at a local community college or buy a tutorial book or two - but make sure you learn to design for PRINT not web, because there are many subtle differences. Knowing how to use photoshop doesn't mean you can print everything you create. It's a great start though and a lot of the skills you learn in PS carry over to other necessary adobe products.

vangogh
06-19-2009, 09:49 PM
you become kind of sensitive to the whole issue.

This isn't one of those issues for me, but I totally understand. There are a few push button issues that get me all charged up too.

Paul Elliott
06-20-2009, 02:56 PM
To theDIfellas -- I may be complicating the issue more, but I have personally done it both ways: with high-end software and with professionals.

Jen of Blessed has gotten more to the point of what y'all need: the professional's eye and experience.

You can have the most expensive software and be an expert at using it, YET FAIL MISERABLY at brochure design!


Good brochure design is so much more than simply using the right software. It also entails paying attention to the following details... and so much more:
- Are the images a high-enough resolution,
- do you have the panels set up correctly so that when the brochure is printed it will fold right - because you can't simply divide your sheet into three equal pieces and have it work right
- Is your copy easy to read
- what kind of fonts are you using
- are you developing your "brand" by keeping your marketing materials consistent, are there other things the brochure needs to "go with"
- do you want to be able to mail this brochure...

Anyway - you get my point. Good brochure design, or design of any other marketing material is so much more than just using the "right" software.

I wish the DIFellows lots of luck with their venture!

Just one small example: The professional will know better than to use pastel pinks and greens for material definition--up to 5% of males have partial red green color blindness.

The professional will also understand the psychomotor aspects of visual perception. In other words, when we look at a computer screen or a printed page, what do our eyes do and why.

The professional will also understand the artistic needs in the design WITHOUT being so "artsy" that the artwork comes to conscious awareness--a frequent hazard in inexperienced hands.

NEVER overlook the fact that ~90% of purchasing decisions are made for subliminal, subconscious reasons. The rest of the effort is the conscious process of gathering enough arguments to support the decision we have already made.

My marketing practice focuses on that 90%, how to recognize it and how to ethically manipulate it. I can tell you that, with few exceptions, I can pick out the brochures that were not done by a professional designer. I can also pick out the ones done by professional designers who shouldn't be, unfortunately.

I don't know art and you may not either, BUT the professional designer should be able to take your ideas or mine and translate them into something we will love for what it DOES for us rather than for how it looks.

By all means start with ideas about what you want to say and to whom. Define your preferred customer carefully and comprehensively, and give that information to your designer. ALL of this is part of your branding and your branding should be comprehensive, pervasive, and over-arching in your company and its products/services.

Jen (Blessed) gets it! Of course, there may be others on this Forum, but I only know of her work.

I've seen some of her work, and it's good. Hire her--if you can get in her schedule. Pay her whatever she asks. She has very reasonable fees, and she will do far more for you than simply give you a professionally designed brochure. You should understand that from the points she made above.

Even if she tried to go wrong, the rest of us would see that she fixed it.:D But you don't have to worry about that.

And, no, I don't get any fee from her! If she offered, I'd refuse. I simply want to see YOU get what YOU need!

<set soapbox mode = off>

Come on in--the water's fine! My best to your as you jump into the deep end of the entrepreneurial pool!

Paul

Blessed
06-23-2009, 03:55 PM
Thanks for the kind words Paul - I appreciate your recommendation.

I have to admit though - when I look back at some of my early work I cringe a little bit... nothing like a few years experience to teach you a few things. One of the key points is this statement that you made.
"The professional will also understand the artistic needs in the design WITHOUT being so "artsy" that the artwork comes to conscious awareness--a frequent hazard in inexperienced hands."

The time I spent in PrePress was great for my design skills. I was able to see really good stuff and really bad stuff and work with a wide variety of people and expand my skills and develop my design sense - I have "natural talent" but for me that isn't enough - all the critiquing, re-working and learning from other designers, marketing professionals and small business owners I got to do in that environment were very beneficial to my professional development.

I also have to agree with Zack - after spending so much time in a printing environment you get a bit touchy about do-it-yourself designers and designers who don't know the first thing about printing. I spent at least a couple of hours every working day for 8 years explaining to people why their "print ready" files weren't print ready and/or defending the time and effort necessary to re-create those files so that they could print. It definitely is a "hot button" issue for me ;)

Paul Elliott
07-07-2009, 09:50 PM
Very well stated, Jen.

Paul

graphic designer
07-10-2009, 04:21 PM
I am a freelance graphic designer and I would recommend the program In Design which is perfect for a brochure. If the brochure does not have many pages in it you could do it in Photoshop and or Illustrator.

theDIfellas
07-13-2009, 04:48 PM
Thanks for the input, Paul, Jen, everyone else. Its great, a lot deeper than I expected.

We are making steady but sure progress with DI. I'm about to post another thread about booth design for trade shows and expo's.

The brochure will definitely be done before our first major expo in September.

What time frame should I expect when wanting a brochure completely finished? I know this depends on how selective we become and how well the designer works with us etc but overall, would you guys say a couple weeks or more?? Thank you!

Blessed
07-16-2009, 01:09 AM
If you get a good designer, and give them a good outline of what you are wanting, a couple of weeks should be plenty of time. (Depending on the designer's workload and when they can start working on your project.)

Honestly - the only thing that pushes me past a "deadline" is a client that keeps making changes after the initial design work is done. If a client gives me a good idea of what they are looking for to start with we should only go through three or four rounds of proofing before the job is done - of course, when I get a client that isn't really sure of what they want or that isn't able to just make a final decision and live with it projects can go on and on and on and the price goes up.

Good luck! Let us know if we can help with anything else!

Jenn

graphic designer
07-22-2009, 11:43 AM
I myself am a freelance graphic designer. For brochures your best bet is In Design or quark express. Both provide the essential tools for multi page layouts. I own In design and have created many brochures in it. It is very easy to use. Hope this helped.

lav
07-24-2009, 03:42 AM
fast cars are only fast if fast drivers are drivng them lol

vangogh
07-24-2009, 10:36 AM
Funny and also very applicable. And nice to see you again.

Vivid Color Zack
07-29-2009, 04:08 PM
Perfect example this week of the frustrations that come along (on both ends) with accepting work from people who don't know what they are doing.

I receive an order last week from a client who wants some business cards.

I receive files in word format saying what they want on the cards and a separate low res jpeg logo.

I send an email explaining what out requirements are, who our normal client base is, and the name of a qualified designer to help her.

She calls me twice only to have me restate the email verbatim both times, asking the exact questions I had already answered.

She sends me a publisher file with none of the criteria met and I have to reject her files again, email her, deal with more phone calls....

I receive new files again, now with half the requirements met. I reject, call, email... wait...

She claims to have had a designer redo everything but the files come in with no bleeds, and incorrect crop mars (which I asked her to leave out anyway).

Calls and emails continue, she is getting frustrated, I am getting frustrated... She still won't have it done correctly and this has now taken up more of my time than it would have for me to COMPLETELY redesign her low quality logo and set up the files...

I tell her this morning that I am refunding her $28.00 until she can get someone to do it in a program that we actually support.

She is mad. I am mad. She has no business cards still.

Everyone loses.

lav
07-29-2009, 07:34 PM
I hear your frustration VCZ I am quite often finding myself just redesigning the artwork for them. Sometimes it is easier, quicker and keeps everybody happy. I have always wondered how others try and tackle the problem and have tried many different methods.


She claims to have had a designer redo everything but the files come in with no bleeds, and incorrect crop mars (which I asked her to leave out anyway). Over the years I have had many designers send me artwork setup incorrectly even after detailed instructions. Ive come to realise that just because they are a designer doesnt mean they know how to setup artwork for print. I guess if you look at it there are so many different aspects of design these days that it is understandable that a graphic designer can be experienced in one facet of design but not another. I try to help the designers along as much as I can because I can remember appreciating the help I got when I first started designing

When you come up with a foolproof solution I'll buy it off you!

Vivid Color Zack
07-29-2009, 09:17 PM
Believe me if I find that solution I'm patenting it and selling the heck out of it. I can't imagine what big printers like VistaPrint must deal with in customer service... Oh wait they don't care, haha.

- Oh and we used to just fix files for people to avoid hassle. I just feel like by now I should have earned the right to expect the requirements listed to be followed. I don't know why I think that because I've improved and my company has improved that my customers would too.

theDIfellas
08-03-2009, 05:20 PM
This isn't brochure-involved but I'd really like to get a couple of designer's opinions on this.

If I could get a PM with your email address, I'll send over a file of the poster-type design we want to use for a huge trade show we are attending in Sep.

I want to get a professional's opinion before we go print this with Skyline, our trade show booth company. We've got the print guidelines down it seems, we just need your opinion on the design, colors, overall impressions. THANK YOU!

lav
08-04-2009, 12:37 AM
You can post it for review in the "advertising review" forum here, Im sure you will get some feedback there.