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huggytree
05-23-2009, 01:42 PM
I learned a good lession for the 100th time this week.
(someday it has to sink in)

She is a disabled vetran (she tells me this every time). She has back problems and wants a new shower...she says she needs it..She also admitted that she didnt have much money and was getting a grant to help her.

7 phone calls over 6 months...each time the project changed...each time is was somewhat grand....we talked money once and i told her that the whirlpool idea she had that day would be $10k+ for everything (plumbing/tile,drywall,etc)

well she finally went to the supply house to pick out her selections..she picked out body sprays ($2k worth -my cost for parts). I called her up to explain body sprays = 10 gallons a minute which = a tankless water heater ($3k by itself)....i told her shes looking at $10k just in plumbing...she calls back and says her grant is $1,500....she has $4k total for the project..thats for EVERYTHING....(the average bath remodel is $15k+)

ive spent 2 hours+, my supply house spend 1 hour.....We talked about money on phone call #2....but i should have talked money every phone call because she didnt get it...

its hard to talk $ w/o being rude. i usually say 'do you know that the typical Whatever costs $ x ?'

is that a good way, or is there a better way?

(i used to get 1 out of 10 bids, now that i qualify people its 1 out of 2- lately its on its way back up again though)



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Spider
05-23-2009, 03:42 PM
After talking with her like this, you probably have a good idea of what she needs and you said she told you her budget. I would suggest what she can have for that amount of money. Then keep referring to that proposal every time she calls. I would say definitely tell her the approx price for each new idea she has. Austensibly, that is why she is calling.

OTOH, she may be a lonely old lady who just wants someone to talk with. You are doing a public service by being so kind as to discuss this with her. No problem with that. Play along, keep quoting and you may get the job. If not, sleep soundly at night knowing that you have helped another human being get through a boring, lonely and possibly painful day.

One day, you may be making enough money to do jobs like this gratis.

huggytree
05-23-2009, 08:33 PM
i could smash out her old tub & install a new shower with a basic mixing valve for under $2k and i have a lower end remodeler who said he could do the drywall repair and tile work for $2k....that isnt what she wants

she wants either a whirlpool tub or a body spray shower....i found her a $500 dual shower head system which can be pivited down and turned into 2 body sprays...i offered this for the $4500 range.....i could tell she didnt like the idea because she went back to the whirlpool tub idea....if i bought the cheapest WP tub i could find i also could probably do this project for $4500 also..

i think she's married, so i doubt its because she's lonely....i figure she will find a handyman who does it all...$4k is sounds just right for that....the job will look horrible and probably not work correctly, but she'll get $4k worth of product.

vangogh
05-24-2009, 03:50 PM
I think the idea of qualifying prospects is a good one. You have to learn who is going to turn into a good client and who is better left to become someone else's client. You already know this, but you don't need to land everyone who contacts you as a client. Some people just put a drain on your business. Maybe if your business has slowed down a lot you can take a chance, but generally I prefer to ask a few questions early on and sort out who I think will be someone I want to work with and who will be someone I'd just as soon not work with.

huggytree
05-25-2009, 08:29 AM
one of my latest business flaws is to not qualify referral customers. I assume they are sure things and just go out and bid. Im finding that the odds of landing them are higher, but not 100%....maybe 75%

ive run into a few who have unrealistic idea's of price.....this post is about a referral customer....i found out the person who referred her (electrician) has already dumped her because she cant afford him either.

how do any of you qualify a person? what are the questions?

here's my questions

1. where did you get my name
2. do you know that this type of project is typically between $x and $x
3. how many bids are you planning on getting
4. is price the most important thing your looking for? (ive never had the guts to say this one. its offensive to me, but i need to start saying it)

Patrysha
05-25-2009, 09:26 AM
The problem with the last question (on top of being a hard one to spit out) is that people will lie. They will say "oh no, I'm going to go for the best value, not the best price...I want quality and craftmanship..." and only a few of them will actually mean it when it comes down to the final decision.

nealrm
05-25-2009, 10:00 AM
Huggytree,
You can ask all those question, but do it in a way that the customer will think you are being helpful.

Instead of asking "where did you get my name" ask "Who should I thank for the referral"

Instead of asking if they know the price range try "These projects can run from $X to $y depending on the style and quality of the fixtures, the amount of work to install the hardware and how you want the finishing work done." Then ask about their budget and the type of fixtures they want.

Spider
05-25-2009, 11:03 AM
Huggytree,
You can ask all those question, but do it in a way that the customer will think you are being helpful... This is an excellent suggestion. Using that philosophy on the last question - Is price the most important thing? - You can ask it like this --

"When I'm preparing the estimate for you, should I provide for the highest quality, high priced fixtures or lower quality, lower priced fixtures?"

Also consider, "Do you want to save money up front, by reducing the cost of the fixtures, or save money over the long term by having better quality fixtures that will last longer?"

Dan Furman
05-25-2009, 01:24 PM
This is an excellent suggestion. Using that philosophy on the last question - Is price the most important thing? - You can ask it like this --

"When I'm preparing the estimate for you, should I provide for the highest quality, high priced fixtures or lower quality, lower priced fixtures?"

Also consider, "Do you want to save money up front, by reducing the cost of the fixtures, or save money over the long term by having better quality fixtures that will last longer?"

can I get a price for both?

huggytree
05-25-2009, 02:02 PM
i dont install low price fixtures and parts

i usually start in the lower-mid-range on fixtures and i only have 1 level on parts

if they want a low priced job im not the guy for the job.

vangogh
05-26-2009, 01:11 AM
can I get a price for both?

I know that would happen to me if I suggested it. I think the idea Frederick mentioned is a good one, but you still have to be careful in the questions you ask. I usually try to find out as much as I can by asking open ended questions and listening to get a feel for what a potential client is looking for. In most cases when people approach me what they want is usually more than what they want to pay for. By asking open ended questions and guiding the conversation a little I can usually understand what they want most so as to offer them the most for the money.

Back to the original thought of the thread I do ask some questions to qualify the prospect. There are signs that a contact is going to be someone I'd rather not work with or even that I'm not the right person for their job. It benefits both of us to figure that out as soon as possible.

Dan Furman
05-26-2009, 10:35 AM
I've been against this for a long time, but I've started putting general prices on my quote page. I just get too busy to have a two or three message exchange with people (usually what it takes to define a project and get a price), only to find I'm WAY above what they wanted to pay (and not because my rates are astronomically high - they aren't - but because the prospect was expecting "$10 an hour" prices.)

I would happily do the above in the past, because it wasn't that many. But as things move forward, I find the above more common. Some mornings I spend two to three hours on e-mail exchanges.

I've also found that type of prospect to be increasingly sour once they get my price. Maybe because the economy isn't so great, and if they can't afford me, obviously things are tight... whatever. But it wears me down after awhile. I'd simply rather not deal with them. So I'll put ballpark prices on my site - at this point, I don't see a downside.

cocoy
05-26-2009, 10:55 AM
To be fair to customers, many services provided by the posters here are not what I would call common. How many times does a person need a website designed or some copy writing done? I doubt they would know or even come close to guessing how much your fees would be. So I wouldn't be surprised that some would get "sticker shock".

Dan Furman
05-26-2009, 11:20 AM
To be fair to customers, many services provided by the posters here are not what I would call common. How many times does a person need a website designed or some copy writing done? I doubt they would know or even come close to guessing how much your fees would be. So I wouldn't be surprised that some would get "sticker shock".

I deal with a lot of first time business owners, so I agree with that. It doesn't really surprise me.... well, to a point it doesn't.

I say to a point because personally, I always assume I am paying almost any professional a professional rate. To me (and my wallet/perception) that starts at around $80-$100 an hour, and goes up from there. If I hire a professional graphic artist, for example, I simply expect to pay a professional rate. Same as I would a plumber, etc.

Maybe it's wrong of me, but I sometimes just expect other people to think that way.

Hope I didn't derail the thread too much :)

vangogh
05-26-2009, 11:42 AM
Dan that's one of the reasons I added rates to my site as well. I don't know that everyone who contacts me will see them first, but the idea in part is to prequalify some people and perhaps avoid sticker shock in others.


I doubt they would know or even come close to guessing how much your fees would be.

That's fair. I wouldn't expect everyone to know how much I charge, though I do think if you're planning on hiring someone to do some work you should do some research and have some idea. And I agree with Dan that if you're hiring a professional in any service you should have some kind of realistic idea of the rate.

You may not know exactly what I charge in advance, but realistically you should have an idea it's more than $10/hr. I don't think it's unreasonable to think people could find their way to the ballpark even if they don't know in advance how far it is from home plate to first base or the pitcher's mound.

huggytree
05-26-2009, 03:31 PM
i think its a great idea to give some general prices on your website. if more of my business came from my website id do it too!...i have 'basic' prices on every project. when i bid i start w/ that $ and look for extra's....you can post them, while i have to say them & try not to be rude.

vangogh
05-26-2009, 05:06 PM
A quick price, even if it's only a rough price is a great way to sort out the legit prospects from the tire-kickers. I never used to offer a price until I knew the details, but now I always respond with some kind of price range along with what I'll deliver for that price.

Spider
05-27-2009, 10:09 AM
It seems to me to be an essential element of any website touting for business, to include prices. These prices should be as accurate and as firm as possible. Certainly, some businesses cannot give firm pricing due to the variable nature of their work, but I think a potantial customer has the right to expect that you, as the expert, should know how much your work will cost him. To not make some effort at being informative about price leads an enquirer to assume the business is trying to hide their prices.

I invariably pass over a site/business that does not include pricing information on any site I visit.

Thus, my site includes prices and explains that custom coaching programs can be created. And, incidentally, all roads lead to that page - there is a link on every page of my site to my pricing page and my pricing page is also my contact page.

I think this is most important - not only from a a pre-qualification aspect, but also from an honesty and trust aspect.

vangogh
05-27-2009, 10:36 AM
some businesses cannot give firm pricing due to the variable nature of their work

That's why you won't always see it. I know I can't really give a price to someone until I know the details of their project. Will the site be 5 pages or 500 pages. Will those pages be simple text and images or will the pages need some programming, etc.

But I can give out my hourly rate along with some ideas of how the cost of a project will be estimated. I try to give people a sense of what their project will cost, even if I can't be exact prior to knowing the details.

I think that's true of a lot of service based businesses and why those businesses shy away from displaying prices.

There have been times where I've had my rates on the site and times where I haven't. I can't say I noticed any difference in how many people contacted me, though I also can't say I was actively tracking it. Many people contact me and still ask what my rate is so I know they haven't looked at or found the page. Enough people mentioned to me that they'd prefer to see rates so I'll be keeping the page.

Spider
05-27-2009, 11:31 AM
Great! I wish everyone did.

vangogh
05-27-2009, 11:53 AM
Me too. A pet peeve of mine is when I see a product online, but have to spend 5 minutes searching for the price. Think of all the sites where you have to actually enter the shopping cart in order to see how much something costs. Those sites generally don't close a sale with me.

Dan Furman
05-27-2009, 04:14 PM
There have been times where I've had my rates on the site and times where I haven't. I can't say I noticed any difference in how many people contacted me, though I also can't say I was actively tracking it.

I definitely notice a downtick when I put up my rates. For years, I didn't put them on my site because I wanted a shot at everyone. That worked well for years, as most people who contacted me were more or less experienced businesspeople, and most expected to pay a professional rate. I really didn't need to put my rates up.

It's a little different now - the barrier to entry for having a business online is almost nil, so there are WAY more "let me start a little side business" people now. There's nothing wrong with that, but most of them can't afford me (and it's not even close) - I simply can't copywrite a 5 page website for $200. Some days, I get 5-6 of these. It just takes too much time to sort through them and get back to them, etc - better to give a general price list on my site and keep them from e-mailing me in the first place (saves us both time.)

vangogh
05-27-2009, 05:43 PM
Interesting how we see different results from showing rates. What you're seeing is more what I'd expect to happen. The rates can be there to sort out the serious inquiries and keep others away.

I've never noticed a difference whether I had them there or not. Maybe I haven't made the page so obvious and people are missing it. Even with the rates I still get the "Can you build me a website for $50" requests.

Dan Furman
05-27-2009, 07:33 PM
Interesting how we see different results from showing rates. What you're seeing is more what I'd expect to happen. The rates can be there to sort out the serious inquiries and keep others away.

I've never noticed a difference whether I had them there or not. Maybe I haven't made the page so obvious and people are missing it. Even with the rates I still get the "Can you build me a website for $50" requests.

Yes, your rate page is really not obvious. You have to find it. I put the rates right on the quote page. I put them *after* the form, but still, you really can't miss it.

Since I get almost 80% of my contacts from my quote page, almost everyone who wants to contact me will see them.

I'll bet if you put a top level link that said "rates", two things would happen:

1) It would get clicked on a lot
2) Your contacts would go down (not necessarily a bad thing)

When I get some time, I'm going to change the name of my "quote" link to "rates / quote" (it's just I have to change it on like 50 pages :) ). That will increase traffic to that page (everyone will want to see the rates), and maybe get me more qualified leads as well.

vangogh
05-28-2009, 01:33 AM
I probably won't move my rates page in the navigation, but it might be an interesting test to link to it more in content to see what happens. I'll have to check my analytics for that page to see how often it's visited.

Yeah it's not necessarily a bad thing to turn a few people away. It should lead to more qualified leads. Lately my leads have been pretty good and I've been getting less of the tire kickers so I'm happy leaving things as they are at the moment.

Dan Furman
05-28-2009, 11:01 AM
I probably won't move my rates page in the navigation, but it might be an interesting test to link to it more in content to see what happens. I'll have to check my analytics for that page to see how often it's visited.

Yeah it's not necessarily a bad thing to turn a few people away. It should lead to more qualified leads. Lately my leads have been pretty good and I've been getting less of the tire kickers so I'm happy leaving things as they are at the moment.

I wouldn't mess with it then. :) I changed mine because when I get busy (like now), conversing with five people a day that I have no realistic shot at closing doesn't make sense.