Windows 10 launches on Wednesday. Yea, or Nay?

[Harold Mansfield]

I've been running the Windows 10 preview on my laptop for a couple of months now and I like it.
The official release is July 29th. It's a free upgrade for anyone running Windows 7, 8, and 8.1 for at least the first 6 months.

If you're running any of those versions of Windows now, you may have a little Windows icon in your notification bar inviting you to update.

I've been following news, podcasts, and shows about the update so I'm feeling pretty confident about it.

Anyone else looking forward to it? Will you wait a few months? Are you planning on staying put with 7 or 8.1?

[jamesray50]

I don't have the option to reserve it when I click on the Windows icon. Maybe I should check if all my updates are installed? Also, once I reserve it is there a time limit on when to install it?

[Harold Mansfield]

Not sure of the time limit. From what I understand it's a free upgrade for at least 6 months, some sources say a year.

Everything I've heard on the subject says that you'll be asked if you want to continue the installation..that it won't be an automatic upgrade without your permission.

Also, it will be dolled out over time. Everyone won't get the invitation on day one. If you don't have it now, it may come later or you will probably just be able to go to Microsoft.com and download it the same way Windows 8.1 was dished out.

Here's a link on how to upgrade:
How to Upgrade to Windows 10 - Microsoft (http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-10-upgrade)

[turboguy]

My wife's laptop is windows 8 and she hates it so I will at least upgrade that one but the ones I have running Windows 7 may just stay the way they are. I am concerned that some of my older programs may not run if I upgrade, I found Windows 7 would not let me run Pagemaker and I have a lot of old files that I reuse once in a while. I don't do anything new in PageMaker and have switched to InDesign for those projects but keep an old computer in my office that the only reason it still exists is if I need to work with one of the old Pagemaker files.

[Harold Mansfield]

...I am concerned that some of my older programs may not run if I upgrade, I found Windows 7 would not let me run Pagemaker and I have a lot of old files that I reuse once in a while. I don't do anything new in PageMaker and have switched to InDesign for those projects but keep an old computer in my office that the only reason it still exists is if I need to work with one of the old Pagemaker files.

Before you upgrade there's a compatibility tool that let's you know if some of your installed programs are not compatible. I can't say that it's fool proof, but it did alert me that updated drivers and such were available for certain things.

Amazing, a lot of the programs I use are already updated for Windows 10 and ready to rock.

[Brian Altenhofel]

Personally, I've been Microsoft-free since before XP. That said, a few of the enterprises I know that currently run 7 will likely stay on 7 since their software was only recently upgraded to be 7-compatible. Judging by their software vendors' track record with the XP version of their software, any sort of "compatibility mode" won't actually help.

[Harold Mansfield]

I suspect a lot of businesses may do the same for the same reasons. Hell, it wasn't till last year that ATM's stopped using XP.
I do think that if the launch of 10 goes well, that MS will try and force the issue sooner than later and drop support for 7 earlier than normal to try and get everyone to 10.

7 to 8 is a big jump for some people, but 8.1 to 10 really isn't. 10 is like what 8 wanted to be but all the elements weren't in place yet, so it was a slow introduction into an all in one OS that works across all devices.

Now 10 incorporates every environment AND integration with XBOX, Surface Hub, Holo Lens, Skype is part of Office now, plus a lot more cool tools and toys that MS has been putting together over the last few years. Makes me a fan all over again.

[MyITGuy]

As with past releases, I will likely wait until SP1 gets released before upgrading my primary machines or rolling it out to the corporate environment.

[Harold Mansfield]

Same here. I'm running on my laptop to play with, but I won't do my main machine until I watch and hear all of the reviews. I don't recommend anyone jump right in on their primary machine right away.

[Freelancier]

My kids will get it first. After I see how much they hassle with it, I'll decide what to do next. But waiting for SP1 never hurts with MS operating systems.

[carloborja]

I have an old (2011) HP laptop that runs Windows 8.1 -- which I only use for playing media (music and movies).

I'm getting these notifications too. I think it's safe to say that since Windows 8.1 runs perfectly fine in this computer, it will run Win 10 just fine?

I'm also reading in other threads that even pirated copies of Windows are getting free upgrades?

[billbenson]

I have a friend who fell on hard times for work several years ago. He ended up working at Best Buy for the Geeksquad. He just got a real job again as an IT manager for a large local newspaper.

While at Geeksquad, he said he had nothing but great reviews for Win 10. Just info for what it's worth.

[cbscreative]

https://youtu.be/_Vc7X2oMi_I

I thought I would add this just for fun. The video is almost a year old so the production quality is not even close to their current standard but the sequel is due out tomorrow to coincide with W10 release and will be much better. I'm adding this so the sequel will make more sense.

BTW, the lead actor, writer, and producer is my son so I reserve the right to post as a proud dad.

[Harold Mansfield]

I have an old (2011) HP laptop that runs Windows 8.1 -- which I only use for playing media (music and movies).

I'm getting these notifications too. I think it's safe to say that since Windows 8.1 runs perfectly fine in this computer, it will run Win 10 just fine?

I'm also reading in other threads that even pirated copies of Windows are getting free upgrades?
I've been running the preview on a 3 year old discontinued Toshiba laptop that I purchased with Win 8 (upgraded to 8.1), 1TB hard drive, 6G RAM, 2.40 GHz Intel Processor. I also don't use this laptop for anything important.

I wish I could give you a "perfectly fine" assurance about anything tech. I can only say that the preview has run fine for me, and I'm looking forward to it.

But I and others recommend that you wait to upgrade on your main machine. That's just smart no matter what the software is. I've been playing with it and will update my laptop right away. Not my work desktop.

I can say that Windows Media Player is gone from Win10. Just in case you were using it.

[carloborja]

https://youtu.be/_Vc7X2oMi_I

I thought I would add this just for fun. The video is almost a year old so the production quality is not even close to their current standard but the sequel is due out tomorrow to coincide with W10 release and will be much better. I'm adding this so the sequel will make more sense.

BTW, the lead actor, writer, and producer is my son so I reserve the right to post as a proud dad.


Nice video! Which one is your son? The guy with the blue shirt writing his essay? He's got some potential if he wrote and produced that. :)



I've been running the preview on a 3 year old discontinued Toshiba laptop that I purchased with Win 8 (upgraded to 8.1), 1TB hard drive, 6G RAM, 2.40 GHz Intel Processor. I also don't use this laptop for anything important.

I wish I could give you a "perfectly fine" assurance about anything tech. I can only say that the preview has run fine for me, and I'm looking forward to it.

But I and others recommend that you wait to upgrade on your main machine. That's just smart no matter what the software is. I've been playing with it and will update my laptop right away. Not my work desktop.

I can say that Windows Media Player is gone from Win10. Just in case you were using it.

Thank you Harold. This old HP machine I have is not my main one though. So, I think it's perfectly fine to update it right away. Can't wait to test it out.

[Harold Mansfield]

Thank you Harold. This old HP machine I have is not my main one though. So, I think it's perfectly fine to update it right away. Can't wait to test it out.

What's it running now? Windows 7 64 bit?

[carloborja]

What's it running now? Windows 7 64 bit?

Windows 8.1 64-bit.

Originally it was on Windows 7.

[cbscreative]

Nice video! Which one is your son? The guy with the blue shirt writing his essay? He's got some potential if he wrote and produced that. :)

Thanks. My son, Paul, is the redhead with the checkered shirt. I got to see the rendered sequel today which he has been working feverishly on to have it ready on time. He deliberately wore the same shirt for the sequel but in terms of the production quality, there's no comparison. When I post it you'll see what I mean. It's amazing how much can change in less than a year, not to mention a greatly expanded talent pool of people on the team, and equipment upgrades which make the two videos about as different as the 1960's Star Trek TV show and the 2009 Star Trek movie.

[carloborja]

Thanks. My son, Paul, is the redhead with the checkered shirt. I got to see the rendered sequel today which he has been working feverishly on to have it ready on time. He deliberately wore the same shirt for the sequel but in terms of the production quality, there's no comparison. When I post it you'll see what I mean. It's amazing how much can change in less than a year, not to mention a greatly expanded talent pool of people on the team, and equipment upgrades which make the two videos about as different as the 1960's Star Trek TV show and the 2009 Star Trek movie.

Cool. Tell him to be careful with the laptop next time. He 'banged' it too hard twice in the first few seconds of the film. :)

[cbscreative]

All right, the new video has gone live:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15dqsUUvW2s

No laptops were harmed during the filming of this video. :)

The video embed worked on this post too. Not sure why the first one didn't. Oh well.

[Harold Mansfield]

Windows 8.1 64-bit.

Originally it was on Windows 7.

Should be fine.

[Harold Mansfield]

Well, updating my laptop didn't go as expected, but it's my fault.

Back when my desktop drive crashed, I moved everything to my laptop. After I installed a new HD, I installed Win8.1 from a newly purchased disk.
When I was done and my desktop was back up and running with all of my files and programs, I reset my laptop to factory to clear it out.

So, in an effort to skip the 1000 updates from 8 to 8.1 + service patches, I used the disk to jump straight to 8.1. I shouldn't have done that because now it shows that I'm using the same license on 2 computers and the laptop won't complete the full Win10 install because it shows I've exceeded my license agreement with 8.1.

So, I'm going full nuke on the laptop to get my old key back, and then I'll do the Win10 full update.

[Brian Altenhofel]

Windows 10 Shares Your Wi-Fi With Contacts (http://krebsonsecurity.com/2015/07/windows-10-shares-your-wi-fi-with-contacts/)

[Harold Mansfield]

Windows 10 Shares Your Wi-Fi With Contacts (http://krebsonsecurity.com/2015/07/windows-10-shares-your-wi-fi-with-contacts/)
I'm sure there's a setting or an easy fix for this. It's too simple to be an oversight. Has to be a deliberate option.

[MyITGuy]

I'm sure there's a setting or an easy fix for this. It's too simple to be an oversight. Has to be a deliberate option.

Doesn't seem to be that way...even then the risks are high.

I.E. I provide a wireless network for my home/business.
A trusted friend/acquaintance visits my location and I give them the key to my network. Since he is running Windows 10 and has not disabled this option, this information gets shared to his contacts
Any friends/acquaintances of my friend/acquaintance now have access to my network, even though I have not provided them access

Some might not see this as an issue because how realistic could it be for these people to know the location of my network...but one just has to think back to the days where people would drive around neighborhoods (wardrive) to find wireless networks that were open.

[Harold Mansfield]

Been watching Windows 10 netcasts, shows and reading articles about all the features for months. It's a setting that you can easily change:
Why Windows 10 Shares Your Wi-Fi Password And How To Stop It - Forbes
(http://www.forbes.com/sites/amitchowdhry/2015/07/28/why-windows-10-shares-your-wi-fi-password-and-how-to-stop-it/)
It doesn't share the actual password, it lets you share wifi access with contacts. Its a feature that has been around since Windows 8.1.


Keep in mind that Wi-Fi Sense only grants Internet access, meaning that your friends will not be able to access shared files and printers within your home network. And the encrypted password will only be shared with your direct contacts. If your contacts want to share your password with their contacts, they will need to know the Wi-Fi password.
Wi-Fi Sense will not work on enterprise networks that use the 802.1X standard. If you connect to an enterprise network, the network credentials will not be shared with anyone.


Of course nothing can help you if you leave your wifi open.

[Brian Altenhofel]

Some might not see this as an issue because how realistic could it be for these people to know the location of my network...but one just has to think back to the days where people would drive around neighborhoods (wardrive) to find wireless networks that were open.

People still do that. I live out in the country. Over the past several years, I've caught several teens using neighbors' open networks from 200-300 feet away - mostly for downloading porn because their parents set up parental controls at home. After all the networks in the area were secured, I caught one sitting outside trying to find a hash collision.

[Harold Mansfield]

One of the best identity hacks and CC fraud cases was a couple of guys doing that outside of Barnes & Noble, BJ's, Sports Authority, TJX, Heartland Payment Systems, and some other retailers. Found a vulnerability and went to town. To date still the biggest CC info hack of all time...so far.

It's a fascinating story both in how much they were able to steal, how they did it, and how they got caught.

You can watch it on American Greed on CNBC
American Greed: Hackers: Operation Get Rich or Die Tryin (http://www.cnbc.com/id/100000036)

[MyITGuy]

Been watching Windows 10 netcasts, shows and reading articles about all the features for months. It's a setting that you can easily change

While its a setting I can easily change, how many end-users do you think will know about this issue let alone disable it? Will you be auditing each machine your friends bring over to verify they have disabled this feature before allowing them to connect to your network?


It doesn't share the actual password
No, but it does store an encrypted file on Microsoft servers and likely your contacts devices...which if ever compromised could be used to brute force the file using rainbow hashes in order to get the plain text password.


it lets you share wifi access with contacts.They state this functionality will only utilize internet access...however there are bugs and malicious software that could make it so your internal network is exposed/accessible.


Its a feature that has been around since Windows 8.1
Its only been around for the last year or so, and was only implemented on Windows 8.1 Phones. I wouldn't be surprised anyone knew of this considering the adoption rate of these devices.


Of course nothing can help you if you leave your wifi open.
Personally, I view this new feature as being similar to leaving your wi-fi open.

I'm not concerned with any of my personal/corporate networks since I have 802.1x security implemented, and where guest access is provided there is a captive portal for guests to register/sign into with network isolation...but not everyone will be in this same position.

[Harold Mansfield]

My only advice is if Windows 10 has things in it that you don't like, don't install it. I don't personally see this as a huge deal and understand the manner for which it is intended. I've been using a guest area on my own wifi for a couple of years, and I'm used to sharing my hotspot with others when I'm out in the wild. I probably have 3 or 4 devices that create their own wifi for others to log into with my permission.

Of course I'm not most people. My Mom is most people and she won't understand this unless I explain it to her and that's probably where most casual users are.

You're correct in that they'll have to dumb it down, remove it, make it for pro or enterprise users only, or make the setting obvious for the average home user.

I suspect in the next few weeks there will be a ton of doomsday articles that Windows 10 is stealing people's souls. Happens every time, with every update, of every thing. And it will pass and they will come out with changes, updates, and patches.

That's why I always suggest that people wait.

I'm just not that guy. I want to see the new stuff, touch it, play with it, watch the shows, and talk about it in chat rooms.

[MyITGuy]

One way to keep Windows 10 upgrades free is to use other peoples bandwidth instead of your own.
Windows 10 uses your bandwidth to send other people updates (http://thenextweb.com/microsoft/2015/07/30/windows-10-steals-your-bandwidth-to-send-other-people-updates/)



My only advice is if Windows 10 has things in it that you don't like, don't install it.
Thats kind of my point though...I could be running Windows 7 or a *nix variant on my network with no intention of running Windows 10, but any guests I share my wi-fi password with will now knowingly/unknowingly be sharing my wifi network/password (Encrypted*) with their friends/contacts.

[Harold Mansfield]

One way to keep Windows 10 upgrades free is to use other peoples bandwidth instead of your own.
Windows 10 uses your bandwidth to send other people updates (http://thenextweb.com/microsoft/2015/07/30/windows-10-steals-your-bandwidth-to-send-other-people-updates/)



Thats kind of my point though...I could be running Windows 7 or a *nix variant on my network with no intention of running Windows 10, but any guests I share my wi-fi password with will now knowingly/unknowingly be sharing my wifi network/password (Encrypted*) with their friends/contacts.
It's not exactly that unsecured and you have control over it. If you've been practicing good network security in the first place it shouldn't be an issue in any realistic scenario. Besides most shared wifi networks have guest areas that are separate from the private access.

It really isn't about sharing your wifi access to any and everyone. It's about you and your contacts sharing trusted wifi access points with each other. It's not mandatory to do so.

I know people are freaking out about it all over the internet, but it's not the doomsday trigger that everyone is making it out to be.
This article explains better than I, and tells you how to manage the option pretty easily.
How to protect your wireless network from Wi-Fi Sense | ZDNet
(http://www.zdnet.com/article/how-to-protect-your-wireless-network-from-wi-fi-sense/)

[MyITGuy]

It's not exactly that unsecured and you have control over it.
I can only repeat this so many times...I don't have control over your machine. As a colleague if you visit my house/business I would be inclined to allow you to access my wireless network. As a Window 10 user with this feature enabled, you now share my wireless network information with your friends/contacts. How do I have control over this scenario unless I deny you access to my network?


If you've been practicing good network security in the first place it shouldn't be an issue in any realistic scenario.
Again, I'm not worried about my network. Think of your mom/friends and the millions of other users out there and how technically adept they are, do you think they have good network security in place?


Besides most shared wifi networks have guest areas that are separate from the private access.
Technically, most wifi networks do not have guest areas...with most consumers relying on the hardware/configuration given to them from their internet provider.



It really isn't about sharing your wifi access to any and everyone. It's about you and your contacts sharing trusted wifi access points with each other.
No, its not everyone...but it also isn't just limited to my contacts, its my friends/families contacts (I.E. You visit my location and enter my wifi password on your windows 10 device shares my wifi details with your contacts)


It's not mandatory to do so.
Then may I ask how I can prevent my wifi information from being shared when I provide a wifi password to a friend/colleauge who is running Windows 10 with this feature enabled?


I know people are freaking out about it all over the internet, but it's not the doomsday trigger that everyone is making it out to be.
It's not doomsday, but it is one huge security issue. Plain and simple, if I password protect my network I would not expect any OS/Manufacturer to automatically share this information with others without my consent.


This article explains better than I, and tells you how to manage the option pretty easily.
How to protect your wireless network from Wi-Fi Sense | ZDNet
(http://www.zdnet.com/article/how-to-protect-your-wireless-network-from-wi-fi-sense/)

1st - The majority of users cannot rename the default SSID of Linksys...how do you propose to educate these users to make the change?
2nd - Most users are limited to what their providers set the SSID at the hardware level. These users are out of luck.
3rd - SSID names consist of 32 characters and this opt out mechanism utilizes 7 characters. What happens if Apple/Android/*NIX implement a similar feature with a different opt out mechanism/phrase?

[Harold Mansfield]

I can only repeat this so many times...I don't have control over your machine. As a colleague if you visit my house/business I would be inclined to allow you to access my wireless network. As a Window 10 user with this feature enabled, you now share my wireless network information with your friends/contacts. How do I have control over this scenario unless I deny you access to my network?

INo, its not everyone...but it also isn't just limited to my contacts, its my friends/families contacts (I.E. You visit my location and enter my wifi password on your windows 10 device shares my wifi details with your contacts)

You share with your contacts (who are in close proximity of your network. NOT 24/7), and not their contacts.

The networks you share aren't shared with your contacts' contacts. If your contacts want to share one of your networks with their contacts, they'd need to know your actual password and type it in to share the network.
Wi-Fi Sense FAQ - Windows Help (http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10/wi-fi-sense-faq)


IAgain, I'm not worried about my network. Think of your mom/friends and the millions of other users out there and how technically adept they are, do you think they have good network security in place?

ITechnically, most wifi networks do not have guest areas...with most consumers relying on the hardware/configuration given to them from their internet provider.

When you share network access, your contacts get Internet access only. For example, if you share your home Wi‑Fi network, your contacts won't have access to other computers, devices, or files stored on your home network. If you have a small business that has intranet sites, your contacts won’t be able to access them.

Networks are only shared with contacts who use Wi‑Fi Sense on a PC running Windows 10 or phone running Windows 10 Mobile. Wi‑Fi Sense doesn't work for people who use a PC or phone that's running on a different operating system. If your contacts turn off Connect to networks shared by my contacts in Settings > Network & Internet > Wi‑Fi > Manage Wi‑Fi settings, they'll stop sharing their networks and they won't be able to connect to networks you share.


IThen may I ask how I can prevent my wifi information from being shared when I provide a wifi password to a friend/colleauge who is running Windows 10 with this feature enabled?
Your contacts don't see your Wi‑Fi network password. For networks you choose to share access to, the password is sent over an encrypted connection and is stored in an encrypted file on a Microsoft server, and is then sent over an HTTPS connection to your contacts' PC or phone if they use Wi‑Fi Sense. Your contacts don't get to see your password, and you don't get to see theirs.


IIt's not doomsday, but it is one huge security issue. Plain and simple, if I password protect my network I would not expect any OS/Manufacturer to automatically share this information with others without my consent.
If you don't want Wi‑Fi Sense to connect people to your open Wi‑Fi network or allow people to share access to your password-protected network, you can opt your network out of it by including _optout somewhere in the Wi‑Fi network name (also called the SSID). For example, mynetwork_optout or my_optout_network. When it comes to sharing, you might choose to do this if you have a Wi‑Fi network at home or at a small business where other people know the Wi‑Fi network password, but you don’t want to allow your network to be shared.


1st - The majority of users cannot rename the default SSID of Linksys...how do you propose to educate these users to make the change?
2nd - Most users are limited to what their providers set the SSID at the hardware level. These users are out of luck.
3rd - SSID names consist of 32 characters and this opt out mechanism utilizes 7 characters. What happens if Apple/Android/*NIX implement a similar feature with a different opt out mechanism/phrase?

F.A.Q's are here. I can't answer for what Apple or Android may do but this sharing of trusted wifi is a thing now that's probably going to be a standard option. I'm just trying to make sure I know what this is and how to use it. Fortunately I'm not a hardware or network service provider. Not that I don't care about others, but people should read about new software and features before just diving in head first.

If you know someone like your Mom (and my Mom too), just teach them and they'll teach 2 friends and so on, and so on.
Wi-Fi Sense FAQ - Windows Help (http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10/wi-fi-sense-faq)

[MyITGuy]

If your contacts want to share one of your networks with their contacts, they'd need to know your actual password and type it in to share the network.
And thats the point I've been making all along, what am I failing to explain?

If I do not make use of the Wi-Fi Sense feature, but invite you over as a guest I will entrust with you my wifi password so you can access my network. You choose to utilize the Wi-Fi Sense feature, and since you have now entered my wifi password on your device, you are now sharing it with your contacts.

[Freelancier]

If I do not make use of the Wi-Fi Sense feature, but invite you over as a guest I will entrust with you my wifi password so you can access my network. You choose to utilize the Wi-Fi Sense feature, and since you have now entered my wifi password on your device, you are now sharing it with your contacts.
And if you work at home, this is where properly designing your network comes in. If I give out a WiFi password, it's to a segmented "guest" part of my LAN that can't reach the work LAN. But you have to purchase the right equipment to make this work and create network segments that are blocked from your vital data.

But for the average home user, this won't matter as much... which is good, because the average home user really sucks at maintaining data security.

[MyITGuy]

And if you work at home, this is where properly designing your network comes in. If I give out a WiFi password, it's to a segmented "guest" part of my LAN that can't reach the work LAN. But you have to purchase the right equipment to make this work and create network segments that are blocked from your vital data.

But for the average home user, this won't matter as much... which is good, because the average home user really sucks at maintaining data security.

As I've mentioned previously, my networks aren't the problem as I've invested significantly. When I say "I" in my examples above, assume that I am just a regular joe schmoe who has no knowledge/understanding of technology/security. The "I" in my examples above isn't aware of this Windows 10 Wi-Fi Sense feature, still has a Linksys router with the default SSID because I used the one-button touch setup and regularly gives out the wi-fi password to friends.

[Harold Mansfield]

And thats the point I've been making all along, what am I failing to explain?

If I do not make use of the Wi-Fi Sense feature, but invite you over as a guest I will entrust with you my wifi password so you can access my network. You choose to utilize the Wi-Fi Sense feature, and since you have now entered my wifi password on your device, you are now sharing it with your contacts.
I see we're misunderstanding each other, I'm just not sure where it is.

I'm not sure how you keep getting to "entrust you my wifi password". This makes it unnecessary for you to share your password. Who ever you share your wifi with never sees your password. You keep going to what happens after you share your password, and sharing your password is NOT part of this feature unless you willfully want to do that.

They never enter your password onto their device and they DO NOT share your wifi with their contacts. None of that is happening. No one sees anyone's passwords and no passwords are stored or visible to anyone from anyone's devices.

If you don't want to use this feature and still want physically to share your password with others, then the same security risks that there have always been in doing that don't change. Even if they are using the feature, their contacts still don't have access to your wifi or your password unless that person physically gives it to people...just the same as always.

To put it plainly the only way that their contacts get your password is if the person that you gave it to, physically gives it to them.

[MyITGuy]

I see we're misunderstanding each other, I'm just not sure where it is.

I'm not sure how you keep getting to "entrust you my wifi password". This makes it unnecessary for you to share your password. Who ever you share your wifi with never sees your password. You keep going to what happens after you share your password, and sharing your password is NOT part of this feature unless you willfully want to do that.

They never enter your password onto their device and they DO NOT share your wifi with their contacts. None of that is happening. No one sees anyone's passwords and no passwords are stored or visible to anyone from anyone's devices.

Looks like the mis-understanding is right there...so let me break it down again

1 - I run Windows 7, *nix, Android and/or Windows 10 with Wi-Fi Sense disabled, so my wifi password is not shared with you/anyone via encrypted means. (Again, I'm just a plain joe schmoe here with a single WPA2 protected SSID named Linksys)
2 - You visit my house with your Windows 10 laptop with Wi-Fi sense enabled and want to connect to my wi-fi network.

How do you connect to my wi-fi network? Hint: I give you my password and you type it in on your laptop
What happens when you connect to my wi-fi network? Hint: Since you have now typed in my password and you have Wi-Fi sense enabled, MY wi-fi information is shared with YOUR contacts in an encrypted manner.
Why is this a big issue? Hint: Now your contacts (They have the Wi-Fi Sense feature as well) can wardrive a neighborhood and connect to my Wi-Fi network without my authorization and use it for malicious intent

[Harold Mansfield]

Looks like the mis-understanding is right there...so let me break it down again

1 - I run Windows 7, *nix, Android and/or Windows 10 with Wi-Fi Sense disabled, so my wifi password is not shared with you/anyone via encrypted means. (Again, I'm just a plain joe schmoe here with a single WPA2 protected SSID named Linksys)
2 - You visit my house with your Windows 10 laptop with Wi-Fi sense enabled and want to connect to my wi-fi network.

How do you connect to my wi-fi network? Hint: I give you my password and you type it in on your laptop
What happens when you connect to my wi-fi network? Hint: Since you have now typed in my password and you have Wi-Fi sense enabled, MY wi-fi information is shared with YOUR contacts in an encrypted manner.
Why is this a big issue? Hint: Now your contacts (They have the Wi-Fi Sense feature as well) can wardrive a neighborhood and connect to my Wi-Fi network without my authorization and use it for malicious intent

You keep adding things that aren't happening.

1. It only works on Windows 10 devices with Wi-Fi sense activated. So it doesn't work with Windows 7, Android, iOS or anything else.

2. No, you do not physically give anyone your password. What IS happening is that your password is encrypted through Microsoft's servers to allow them access (with your permission). But the other person doesn't see your password. I can see this being a source of mistrust, but again this isn't new stuff.

3. Again, your wifi can only be shared with YOUR contacts. It IS NOT then shared to their contacts too. They can share their own wifi. They cannot share yours. You cannot share other people's wifi access. If you both have the same contacts, then that's another story.

Honestly, anyone with malicious intent war driving looking for easy wifi access doesn't need this to gain access to your wifi. There are much easier ways to access someone elses wifi than to drive over to your house just for yours. Open wifi is everywhere.

The easy answer to all of this is to just turn it off. Now no one is sharing anything. Done.

[Brian Altenhofel]

The misunderstanding is Harold is talking primary vectors and Jeff is talking secondary vectors.

Given Jeff's scenario, he does not have the option to share his connection via WiFi Sense. His only option is to share his connection via handing out the password. If he hands out the password to someone, Windows will by default treat that network as one of their networks. If that person has WiFi Sense enabled, it shares an encrypted form of the credentials with that person's contacts. If one of that person's contacts wants to connect to Jeff's network via WiFi Sense, they can without Jeff's authorization.

Of course, I'm assuming that Jeff represents a layperson who does not have the knowledge to buy certain equipment or set up alternative firmware like DD-WRT to segment guests from the rest of the network.

[Harold Mansfield]

Seems to me the easiest option is to not give out your password, just as before. And if you don't want to participate in Wifi Sense, turn it off. No one can force you to share your wifi or participate in suggesting other wifi areas for others. It's completely optional.

For me, I can't foresee that I would need to share my wifi with anyone in my contacts especially since most of them are out of state customers that will never be anywhere close to my home even if they knew where it was. And my personal contacts are on Android/Google so that doesn't apply since it is only a feature of Windows 10 devices.

And, I've had the ability to easily share wifi in my home with friends for years. Nothing new there. I suppose they could have given out the guest password to someone who then drove by my house just to snake my wifi, but seriously...I'm just not seeing it being worth the trouble.


However, I can see how having access to a list of trusted wifi spots in your area suggested by other MS uses would be a good thing. And since more companies and people are sharing wifi these days I see this is a good thing for those who want to participate. Also a good thing that no one has to anguish over this because they can just turn it off and not participate.

All of those "what if" scenarios and questions are pretty much covered here.
Wi-Fi Sense FAQ - Windows Help (http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10/wi-fi-sense-faq)

[MyITGuy]

The misunderstanding is Harold is talking primary vectors and Jeff is talking secondary vectors.

Given Jeff's scenario, he does not have the option to share his connection via WiFi Sense. His only option is to share his connection via handing out the password. If he hands out the password to someone, Windows will by default treat that network as one of their networks. If that person has WiFi Sense enabled, it shares an encrypted form of the credentials with that person's contacts. If one of that person's contacts wants to connect to Jeff's network via WiFi Sense, they can without Jeff's authorization.

Of course, I'm assuming that Jeff represents a layperson who does not have the knowledge to buy certain equipment or set up alternative firmware like DD-WRT to segment guests from the rest of the network.

Thank you Brian, you understand me! I'm over here going crazy thing what am I missing/not explaining properly. Anyways, I'm done with the Wi-Fi Sense discussion, what are your thought on the news I posted earlier?

Windows 10 uses your bandwidth to send other people updates (http://thenextweb.com/microsoft/2015/07/30/windows-10-steals-your-bandwidth-to-send-other-people-updates/)

The feature, called Windows Update Delivery Optimization is designed to help users get updates faster and is enabled by default in Windows 10 Home and Pro editions. Windows 10 Enterprise and Education have the feature enabled, but only for the local network.

It’s basically how torrents work: your computer is used as part of a peer to peer network to deliver updates faster to others. It’s a great idea, unless your connection is restricted.

[Harold Mansfield]

Thank you Brian, you understand me!

It's not that I didn't understand you, it's that you were creating hypotheticals that don't exist and then were asking me to guess on what the answer is to things that weren't true about how it worked.

I'm learning this new just like everyone else. I thought I answered and linked to pretty clear answers to all of your question. If I didn't I'm sorry.

[Harold Mansfield]

I also highly recommend watching the last few episodes of Windows Weekly on Twit. They've been diving deep into 10, rumors and functionality like Wifi Sense.
https://twit.tv/shows/windows-weekly

[Harold Mansfield]

Upgraded my desktop this weekend. Other than having to reinstall some display drivers, all is well. Can't say I notice any issues, it's smooth, Edge is a pretty clean browser, the UI is nice.
I can't say anything bad about it yet. It just seems to work.

Haven't played with Cortana yet, but others have said good things.

My laptop is another story. I'm having some real issues there but it's not the OS per say. I was running the preview and it will neither update to the full version or restore to factory settings so that I can start over from Windows 8.1. It's stuck in a perpetual state of limbo that looks like the only way out is to snatch out the hard drive and reinstall a fresh license of Windows 10 on a new one.

I wanted to put in SSD in there anyway and get rid of all of that Toshiba bloatware so this is probably the best excuse I'm going to get.

[Owen]

That awkward moment when you're a Mac user...

[MyITGuy]

That awkward moment when you're a Mac user...

Even as a Mac user, you may still be affected by the Windows Wi-Fi sense feature ;)

[Harold Mansfield]

Even as a Mac user, you may still be affected by the Windows Wi-Fi sense feature ;)
We're going to end up owing Abbott and Costello royalty fees.

[MyITGuy]

We're going to end up owing Abbott and Costello royalty fees.

Considering my many years of being in the IT industry with a focus on Disaster Recovery/Business Continuity and Security, I see this as a huge security issue and will leave it at that.

I'm sorry that I cannot effectively communicate how this can impact you without using hypothetical situations, but this does not mean that the risk is reduced/eliminated...it actually increases the risk due to the misunderstandings and misconceptions around this feature/functionality.

[MyITGuy]

We're going to end up owing Abbott and Costello royalty fees.

In one last effort to explain the risk, I will use Owen as an example in hope that he provides answers to the questions below. Feel free to apply/answer these questions to yourself and I'll be more than happy to review and share where exactly my concern is at.

You stated this does not concern you since you are a Mac user. To confirm, do you have any Windows 8 or 10 devices (Desktops/Laptops/Phones) on your network?

Do you have a Wireless Network in your house?
-If so, do you have a separate guest network/SSID?
-If you do not have a separate guest network, would you mind sharing what your Wireless SSID is? If you're not comfortable sharing the name, just let us know if it contains _optout in the name or not.

Do you have friends/family or other guests that visit your home?
-If so, do you provide them with the security passphrase to connect to your wireless network?
--If so, what would you consider the technical aptitude of the friends/family that visit your home?
--If so, do you inspect their computer (Determine OS/Security Programs and/or features) before providing them with the security passphrase?

[Harold Mansfield]

It doesn't work for Macs. It only works with computers running Windows 10 to other computers running Windows 10. You don't physically give anyone your password. That's the whole point. So that you don't have to give out your password to share your wifi.

And you can turn it off.

I'm just not seeing the huge security risk on something that can be turned off.

It's one of those things that you need to learn to use wisely just like everything else, or just turn it off.
MS has plenty of resources and information about how it works, what it does, and how to use it.
I'm just not understanding why you keep ignoring that information and creating hypotheticals that don't exist.
All the things you are saying is NOT how it works.

Even if you ignore all of that, the big picture is that you can just turn it off. There's no reason to stress over it.

[Harold Mansfield]

There's an episode of Windows Weekly starting on Twit right now. I'm sure they'll speak more about Windows 10 and this feature will probably come up.
https://twit.tv/live

[MyITGuy]

...
All the things you are saying is NOT how it works.
...

Then humor me and answer my questions above (to avoid hypothetical questions/answers) and I'll let you know if you're at risk or not and/or point out why I believe this is a security risk ;)

Considering that Brian and I are on the same page (We both appear to take security seriously), I find it difficult to believe that both of us are missing something when by your own admission (not to attack, just stating) that you don't necessarily understand something as simple as online gaming (http://www.small-business-forum.net/managing-your-business/15118-finally-legit-company-questions-post111040.html#post111040).

[Harold Mansfield]

Then humor me and answer my questions above (to avoid hypothetical questions/answers) and I'll let you know if you're at risk or not and/or point out why I believe this is a security risk ;)

I don't understand what questions about my network has to do with anything, but if it will make you happy...

Do you have a Wireless Network in your house?
Yes.

-If so, do you have a separate guest network/SSID?
Yes.

-If you do not have a separate guest network, would you mind sharing what your Wireless SSID is? If you're not comfortable sharing the name, just let us know if it contains _optout in the name or not.
Even if I didn't, I wouldn't do that. Even though you're thousands of miles away and nowhere near my wifi and couldn't find it even if you came to Vegas.


Do you have friends/family or other guests that visit your home?
Yes.


-If so, do you provide them with the security passphrase to connect to your wireless network?
Occasionally. To the guest area. I may have someone who needs my wifi 2-3 times a year.


--If so, what would you consider the technical aptitude of the friends/family that visit your home?
Non technical.


--If so, do you inspect their computer (Determine OS/Security Programs and/or features) before providing them with the security passphrase?

I could care less what they do on their computers because most people have no idea what they're doing. I don't give people any of my passwords, let them use any of my computers, allow them on my work network, and I don't have employees that need to access wifi so it's not an issue.

And these are people that I know. Why would I share my wifi with anyone that I don't know?

I'm one of those people who just turns it off because I don't need it. Should I take a Windows 10 device on the road and want access to other people's shared wifi, then I may participate during that time. But it's not like it's not easy to find safe, open wifi on the road...especially in a large city. Open wifi is everywhere. Just get next to a restaurant, library, gov building, or use any number of apps that show you where safe hot spots are.

If you're uneasy using hot spots, then get a wireless modem from your mobile provider or one of the other companies. Easy peasy.

[MyITGuy]

Thank you Harold, to clarify:
-You have not opted out of the WiFi sense feature since your SSID does not contain _optout
-your non-technical friends/family are accessing your guest wi-fi by entering a password into their device, for argument sake lets say its Windows 8.1 or 10 Devices with Wi-Fi Sense enabled.

Would this be correct?

[Harold Mansfield]

So let me ask you a question?
How many people do you have in your contacts on your Windows Phone or Tablet?

[MyITGuy]

So let me ask you a question?
How many people do you have in your contacts on your Windows Phone or Tablet?

I don't have a Windows phone, but between "Facebook friends, Outlook.com contacts, or Skype contacts" I have hundreds.

[Harold Mansfield]

Thank you Harold, to clarify:
-You have not opted out of the WiFi sense feature since your SSID does not contain _optout
-your non-technical friends/family are accessing your guest wi-fi by entering a password into their device, for argument sake lets say its Windows 8.1 or 10 Devices with Wi-Fi Sense enabled.

Would this be correct?

Wifi sense is a Windows 10 feature ONLY. The only other previous version of Windows that has it is Windows 8.1 phones (it's not new).
Nothing else. Windows 8 laptops and tablets can't have it enabled because it doesn't exist on those devices.

Yes, up until now I'd give people the password to the guest wifi just like everyone else in the free world has been doing since wifi was invented.


I have no Windows contacts or contacts stored on any Microsoft products. So there's no one to share this feature with.
Yes, I changed my SSID anyway.

[MyITGuy]

Wifi sense is a Windows 10 feature ONLY. It only works on Windows 8.1 phones. Nothing else. Windows 8 laptops and tablets can't have it enabled because it doesn't exist on those devices.

Yes, up until now I'd give people the password to the guest wifi just like everyone else in the free world has been doing since wifi was invented.


I have no Windows contacts. So there's no one to share this feature with.
Yes, I changed my SSID anyway.

While you are correct, it is a Windows 10 Feature only, its not limited to your exclusive use.

As you've stated, you give your password out to your friends/family to access your guest network. What do you think happens when they enter your password into their Windows 10 device with Wi-Fi sense enabled (Assuming you do not have _optout in your SSID)?

[Harold Mansfield]

While you are correct, it is a Windows 10 Feature only, its not limited to your exclusive use.

As you've stated, you give your password out to your friends/family to access your guest network. What do you think happens when they enter your password into their Windows 10 device with Wi-Fi sense enabled (Assuming you do not have _optout in your SSID)?
You're combining 2 different things. You're either using this feature or you're not.

If you're sharing your wifi with this feature, you're NOT giving out your password. Period. Nothing else there. No passwords are changing hands. They aren't typing anything into their devices. You keep going back to this and I keep repeating that is NOT how it works.

How it does work is that your password is encrypted through Microsoft's servers, and then communicated to the device you are sharing with. The person doesn't see, read, save or copy the password nor does it share your access with other people. Period. There is no "what if". It doesn't do it.

Now, I can see how someone may have a problem with that depending on how well you trust Microsoft.


If you're NOT using this feature to share your wifi, then things are the same as they've always been. You're giving people a password and they can share it with whoever they wish. Just as before. If I come to your house and you give me a password to access your wifi I can then email it to a million people, tweet it, post it on Facebook, or whatever else. This was ALWAYS how it was. Nothing new about this scenario.

With Wifi Sense you don't have to give people the actual password anymore, just access.

You only share with YOUR contacts. They don't then share your wifi with their contacts.

[Harold Mansfield]

I don't have a Windows phone, but between "Facebook friends, Outlook.com contacts, or Skype contacts" I have hundreds.

So then this will NEVER share with any of your contacts even if its on because you don't have any contacts in Windows.

It's not cross compatible. It ONLY works Windows 10, to Windows 10. It doesn't read your contacts from other applications and programs.

Not sure about Skype contacts, but I don't think it has anything to do with Skype...however, there are some other sharing and wifi features in Skype.

[MyITGuy]

If you're NOT using this feature to share your wifi, then things are the same as they've always been. You're giving people a password and they can share it with whoever they wish.

And THAT is the point I'm trying to make. Your giving a password to someone to connect to your wireless network, except if they have the Wi-Fi sense feature enabled they are automatically sharing it with each of their contacts.

Do you not see a security issue with that?
You don't want to give your Wireless SSID to someone thousands of miles away, but your OK with your friends/family sharing your encrypted SSID/Password with all of their contacts?

[MyITGuy]

If you're NOT using this feature to share your wifi, then things are the same as they've always been. You're giving people a password and they can share it with whoever they wish.

And THAT is the issue. Your giving a password to someone to connect to your wireless network, except if they have the Wi-Fi sense feature enabled they are automatically sharing it with each that persons contacts.

Do you not see a security issue with that?
You don't want to give your Wireless SSID to someone thousands of miles away, but your OK with your friends/family sharing your encrypted SSID/Password with all of their contacts?

While you are correct that it is technically no different than before, how likely do you think it would be for a person to e-mail their friend/family members wi-fi password to everyone they know?

[Harold Mansfield]

And THAT is the point I'm trying to make. Your giving a password to someone to connect to your wireless network, except if they have the Wi-Fi sense feature enabled they are automatically sharing it with each of their contacts.



This is not true. If you're using Wifi Sense you are not sharing your password. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT!

You don't have to give out a password anymore. You're ONLY sharing access. Microsoft handles the authentication through their servers. You are not giving the person your password. They DO NOT SEE your password. They are not sharing your password. They cannot share your password because they never see it and don't have it in the first place.

How can they share it if they don't have it?

They also DO NOT, and CAN NOT share your wifi access with their contacts. There is no "automatic" sharing of your information or wifi outside of your own contacts should you allow it.

Only you can share your own wifi with your own contacts. It's not a round robin like that shampoo commercial where you tell 2 friends, and they tell 2 friends, and so on, and so on. That is not happening. That's not how it works.

Why do you keep repeating this over and over again?

[MyITGuy]

This is not true. If you're using Wifi Sense you are not sharing your password. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT!
As we've established above, you are not using wifi sense!
You are giving your password to friends/family to access your network. These friends/family are using Windows 10/WiFi Sense.

SINCE YOUR FRIENDS/FAMILY HAVE TYPED IN YOUR NETWORK PASSWORD TO ACCESS YOUR NETWORK, THEY WILL BE SHARING YOUR NETWORK IN AN ENCRYPTED MANNER TO THEIR CONTACTS!



You don't have to give out a password anymore.
As we've established, you are giving out a password because your not using WIFI Sense


You're ONLY sharing access.
You are not sharing anything via WIFI Sense, you are giving your password to your friends/family, and they are sharing your wireless network information to their contacts.


You are not giving the person your password.
As we established above, YOU are giving your friends/family the password to access your network because you are not using WIFI Sense and/or don't have contacts in the supported


[/B] They DO NOT SEE your password. [B]They are not sharing your password. They cannot share your password because they never see it and don't have it in the first place.
For your friends/family that you give your password to, they DO SEE/ARE AWARE of your password as they have to enter it to connect to YOUR network
For contacts who receive information via WIFI Sense - I under stand that they DO NOT SEE your password. However, these are NOT YOUR CONTACTS. These contacts are those of your friends/family.


How can they share it if they don't have it?
Since your friends/family have entered the password into their device to connect to your network, their device is WIFI Sense Enabled, they will share your network details in an encrypted manner to their cont


They also DO NOT, and CAN NOT share your wifi access with their contacts. There is no "automatic" sharing of your information or wifi outside of your own contacts should you allow it.
WIFI Sense does not know who owns the SSID "MANSFIELD-HOME", so when your friends/family connect to "MANSFIELD-HOME" and enter "PASSWORD123!" to connect to your network, WiFi Sense WILL SHARE this with THEIR contacts.


Only you can share your own wifi with your own contacts. It's not a round robin like that shampoo commercial where you tell 2 friends, and they tell 2 friends, and so on, and so on. That is not happening. That's not how it works.
Which is what your friends/family are doing when they connect to your wireless network, using the password you share verbally or in writing (Since you don't have WIFI Sense Enabled). They are sharing your WIFI to THEIR contacts.


Why do you keep repeating this over and over again?
Because your not reading/comprehending my statements and Im a friggin idiot.

Sorry, but I'm going to /Ignore Harold Mansfield for awhile...
Sigh...."Sorry Harold Mansfield is a moderator/admin and you are not allowed to ignore him or her."
How about just locking/deleting this thread then...

[Harold Mansfield]

I think the best solution for you is to just turn the feature off, and if you're worried that others can use wifi sense to share your password don't give it to them and just continue to do things as you've always done them.

I don't think I can do anymore to explain how it works, and doesn't work to you and I'm certainly not the resident Microsoft expert. This is also a new feature and I do understand your concerns. Many people have expressed them and what I'm relaying back to you is what I've learned from reading the articles, reading the MS website and watching the shows and podcasts over the past few months, and from playing with the build of MS 10 as part of the Windows insider program.

I can recommend that instead of getting frustrated with me over someone elses software, that you go to the source and read exact how this feature works from the people who created it.
Wi-Fi Sense FAQ - Windows Help (http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10/wi-fi-sense-faq)

There are also plenty of articles around the web about how to simply disable the features that concern you:
How to kill Wi-Fi password sharing in Windows 10 - CNET (http://www.cnet.com/how-to/how-to-kill-wi-fi-password-sharing-in-windows-10/)
How to protect your wireless network from Wi-Fi Sense | ZDNet (http://www.zdnet.com/article/how-to-protect-your-wireless-network-from-wi-fi-sense/)

[MyITGuy]

I think the best solution for you is to just turn the feature off
As the hypothetical network owner, I don't have wi-fi sense...my family/friends do.


and if you're worried that others can use wifi sense to share your password
That is my concern...finally we're on the same page :)


don't give it to them
Thats all fine an dandy for me...but what about the basic joe schmoe user who isn't aware of this new feature that his friends/family may be using? His network is now at risk due to something Microsoft implemented that is beyond his control.
Considering the uproar over Google's actions (http://www.pcworld.com/article/198667/google_wifi_data_capture_unethical_but_not_illegal .html) a few years back where they captured a few tidbits of information, I'm surprised there isn't a bigger concern with this new feature.

[Harold Mansfield]

Thats all fine an dandy for me...but what about the basic joe schmoe user who isn't aware of this new feature that his friends/family may be using? His network is now at risk due to something Microsoft implemented that is beyond his control.
Considering the uproar over Google's actions (http://www.pcworld.com/article/198667/google_wifi_data_capture_unethical_but_not_illegal .html) a few years back where they captured a few tidbits of information, I'm surprised there isn't a bigger concern with this new feature.

The average Joe Shmoe is going to have to pay attention and learn how to use their technology. I mean there's no easy answer. People need to actually read something every now and then if they want to know how to use stuff and what things do. Anyone who knows how to use Google can easily find articles on this feature. If they're smart enough to set up a network, they're smart enough to understand how to turn this feature off.

This isn't the first time something new has come out. We learn.

What I suspect is going to happen is that no one will read what Wifi Sense really is, it will all be panic and speculation and MS will eventually disable it on an update and people who understand it and want use it will have to activate it manually.

But let's be honest, the average Joe Schmoe has crappy network security, uses easily guessable passwords, and probably are already their own security risk with or without wifi sense. This isn't going to make them more vulnerable than what they've already done to themselves.

MS is obviously targeting educated users, teams and collaborators, businesses, and office environments with this. Not my Mom.

I just don't think it's the security nightmare that you are saying. Anyone who wants to use your wifi for malicious intent doesn't need wifi sense. They know how to gain access to your network.

And even if one of your contacts shares your wifi with one of their contacts, so what? Is your wifi named so clearly that everyone in the world knows it's yours, who you are and where you live? Are they going to travel to outside your home just to access your wifi? And why would you be sharing your private wifi with people you can't trust?

I could post my wifi name and password right here. Does anyone know where it is? Of course not. Are they going to drive all over Vegas to find it? I doubt it. It's not like if you have the name of a wifi network it comes with long and lat information.

If you're a business (like a restaurant, bar, coffee shop, hotel, airport and so on), or a city or company with open wifi you probably want people to use it and want others to recommend it as a trusted wifi network, and I think that's really the whole point. Not your home network.

[MyITGuy]

The average Joe Shmoe is going to have to pay attention and learn how to use their technology. I mean there's no easy answer. People need to actually read something every now and then if they want to know how to use stuff and what things do. Anyone who knows how to use Google can easily find articles on this feature. If they're smart enough to set up a network, they're smart enough to understand how to turn this feature off.
Unfortunately both of us know that's not going to be the case. If I recall correctly, you've posted several times on how you explain/educate your clients to utilize WordPress yet they still don't understand some of the basic concepts. Do you think these same people could understand the implications of network security and what affects other software/features may have on their security? Just look at this topic/thread as an example, it took us 7 pages of back and forth just to get on the same page.

Additionally, these users likely didn't setup their own wireless network as it was likely supplied by their ISP at the time of install, or they purchased their own hardware and used the installation disk or one button configuration to complete the setup. It is very rare that an end user will know how to login to their router, let alone manage the device/security.


What I suspect is going to happen is that no one will read what Wifi Sense really is, it will all be panic and speculation and MS will eventually disable it on an update and people who understand it and want use it will have to activate it manually.
While I agree that this is likely the path Microsoft will take, unfortunately it will likely take longer than we can hope for. Additionally I would still go on record that having this function activated at all would still be a risk. Microsoft should stick to the original intentions of making it easier for the OS to connect to known public wifi spots (The Starbucks, Comcast, AT&T and etc) and not allow end users to select what personal/corporate networks can be shared


But let's be honest, the average Joe Schmoe has crappy network security, uses easily guessable passwords, and probably are already their own security risk with or without wifi sense. This isn't going to make them more vulnerable than what they've already done to themselves.
I would disagree, just because one potentially has weak security doesn't mean we should excuse our concerns for this feature.


MS is obviously targeting educated users, teams and collaborators, businesses, and office environments with this. Not my Mom.
If this is the case, then why is it being shared among end-user platforms such as Facebook, Outlook.com and Skype rather than Office365, LinkedIn, Lync/Skype for Business?


I just don't think it's the security nightmare that you are saying. Anyone who wants to use your wifi for malicious intent doesn't need wifi sense. They know how to gain access to your network.
While its not a huge security nightmare yet, it does have potential. And not everyone who has malicious intent will know how to hack into a wifi network...so why make it easy on them?

The immediate issue I see is a raise in contact spam so people can expand the potential WiFi sense information they have access to, they can then war drive their neighborhoods to see what networks they can access and use them for malicious intent (Downloading/uploading torrents, child porn or etc).

The larger issue I see is that this information has to be transmitted/stored in some fashion and it will be hacked/exposed. If its a hack to where Microsoft stores this information, or if someone can reverse engineer the data that is stored on a clients machine...at some point this information will be accessible/shared to all (Again, not the actual name/password, but the encrypted information can still be usable to access these networks).


And even if one of your contacts shares your wifi with one of their contacts, so what? Is your wifi named so clearly that everyone in the world knows it's yours, who you are and where you live? Are they going to travel to outside your home just to access your wifi?
It isn't a matter of being able to associate my wifi name to me, anyone who wants to utilize this as an attack method can just war drive a neighborhood. People do it just to find public/open networks now, so why would this be any less of a concern?


And why would you be sharing your private wifi with people you can't trust?
I don't mind sharing my wifi with people I trust...its their contacts/friends that I have concern with


I could post my wifi name and password right here. Does anyone know where it is? Of course not. Are they going to drive all over Vegas to find it? I doubt it. It's not like if you have the name of a wifi network it comes with long and lat information.
It appears that you have taken some basic steps to protect your information, but if given enough time I'd say yes you could be found. Theres the DNS Records for your domain, Reverse lookups on your phone number, contact information on Facebook/LinkedIn or others, public records such as corporation/DBA filings, property searches by name or etc along with many other sources.

Next time I'm out in Vegas I might just give it a try to prove a point ;)


If you're a business (like a restaurant, bar, coffee shop, hotel, airport and so on), or a city or company with open wifi you probably want people to use it and want others to recommend it as a trusted wifi network, and I think that's really the whole point. Not your home network.
That was the original intention/point and I agree it should be something that can be shared...but it should be something that the network owner controls with a verification process. It should not be something that any visitor should take/share on their own without the network operators consent.

[Harold Mansfield]

I understand and appreciate everything you are saying ( except the thing about your contacts sharing with their contacts.). However, everyday there's something new to learn, some new exploit, some new virus, some new option, some new technology. It's non stop. I stand by my statement that if you're going to use technology it's your responsibility to learn about the stuff you are using.

There is no easy answer to people not understanding technology. There never has been. Either you learn what you're doing or you pay someone to do it for you.



It appears that you have taken some basic steps to protect your information, but if given enough time I'd say yes you could be found. Theres the DNS Records for your domain, Reverse lookups on your phone number, contact information on Facebook/LinkedIn or others, public records such as corporation/DBA filings, property searches by name or etc along with many other sources.

Next time I'm out in Vegas I might just give it a try to prove a point ;)


C'mon man. I'm not an amateur. I don't even put my picture online. I'm the one always telling other people to stop putting all of their information online and then complaining when other people find their information online.

Not that I'm challenging you, but you will not find my location or personal details by reverse lookup of DNS, phone numbers, emails, social media profiles, property or anything else. It's not my first time online.

You will find only the information that I want found.

Sure, if you're determined I'm sure you can through other methods. I'm not exactly hiding...my business is online and being online. But there's no reason for personal details that someone can use to clone my identity, to assume any of my profiles or accounts to be easily found.

But seriously, someone's going to track me down just to piggy back my wifi? It'll never happen, and I'm not that paranoid.
I'm confident in the security I have for my own stuff. Unless someone is targeting me specifically, they will likely just move on to an easier target.

Just like a door lock won't stop a professional, nothing online (or anywhere) is completely, 100%, safe no matter what you do. Nothing.

[Harold Mansfield]

This may sound selfish, but I do what I can to help people, educate my clients, and help friends and family with tech, but I don't get upset when other people make stupid mistakes with their personal information and security because they didn't bother to read the instructions.

People like us have been screaming at people for over a decade that the web is the wild west. It is not to be trusted. You can't put all of your information, Tweet anything you want, post pictures and so on and expect privacy. There is no privacy online.

Don't connect everything to your network if you don't know what you're doing.
Don't put all of your personal information online.
Stop trusting other people to secure your important information.
Stop telling people on Facebook when you go on vacation and what school your kids go to.
Stop using your dog's name and wife's birthday for your password.

But do people listen? No. Everyone walks around with this false sense of security completely oblivious to the "world" part of the World Wide Web and that the laws of the United States are somehow magically enforced internationally.

Maybe I'm cynical, but you cannot walk around this world with all of the devices that we have now that are constantly connected to the internet and don't bother to learn anything about how they work, what they do, or practicing basic safety.

[Brian Altenhofel]

Analýza Windows 10: Ve svém principu jde o pouhý terminál na sb (http://aeronet.cz/news/analyza-windows-10-ve-svem-principu-jde-o-pouhy-terminal-na-sber-informaci-o-uzivateli-jeho-prstech-ocich-a-hlasu/)

All text typed on the keyboard is stored in temporary files, and sent every 30 minutes to Microsoft and MarkMonitor.

Telemetry is sent every 5 minutes to Microsoft and MarkMonitor.

A search for popular media titles in local search triggers an index of your media and transmits the index to Microsoft.

Enabling the webcam sends ~35MB of data to Microsoft and MarkMonitor.

Anything said into a microphone is sent to Microsoft and MarkMonitor.

Every 15 minutes of idle time, roughly 80MB of other data is transmitted to Microsoft and MarkMonitor.

This data is still transmitted even if Cortana is turned off and uninstalled.

If Cortana is turned on, anything you say into microphone is automatically transcribed with the transcriptions sent to Microsoft.

[Harold Mansfield]

MarkMonitor has been around and used by Microsoft, Google and many other brands for years. Like 10.


MarkMonitor offers enterprise security solutions, protecting trademarks and copyrighted material by monitoring the behavior and activities of users online as an extension of the Center for Copyright Information (http://www.copyrightinformation.org/).


What does this mean? If you use a service that transfers files using bittorrent as a file transfer protocol (FTP) your internet service provider (ISP) may be working with MarkMonitor to track the types of files you’re accessing and sharing. Penalties for alleged infringement of a company’s copyright include a written warning, throttling a users access speed, redirecting their browser to information about copyright infringement and in the end the user can be denied, though the plan does not require denial of service, access by the ISP and charged with as much as $150,000 in penalties per offense.

For more on the Copyright Alert System, check out this FAQ at Wired (http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2011/07/ispplan.pdf). According to Wired, these practices will be implemented by providers like AT&T, Cablevision, Comcast, Time Warner Cable and others.

Online? MarkMonitor May Be Watching You (http://ringoffireradio.com/2013/02/online-markmonitor-may-be-watching-you/)

[Harold Mansfield]

There are some new Windows 10/Microsoft "monitoring" defaults. Since so much is going through MS servers, their claim is that they cannot be a part of people using pirated material and programs and will prevent you from using their services with them, or backing them up on their servers, and using MS servers to share them.

Apple actually did this a few years back where an iTunes update deleted music from your iTunes that was purchased via iTunes. Consumers saw it immediately and were LIVID (including me) while Apple denied it FOR YEARS. They just admitted it recently.

If privacy is a concern there are options to mask your activity, store your own stuff, not put everything in "the cloud", have your own VPN and so on. Yeah, the average user isn't going to know how to implement them and that sucks. It's really every man for himself, but that also means importunity for service providers.

At the moment none of this bothers me and isn't causing me any issues. But I also always opt in to the feedback option to send information about how I use a product with MS or Google or whoever.

Here's the thing. Expect that everyone is spying on you, and monitoring your activity. It's been that way for well over a decade. From Facebook, to ATT&T, to Search Engines, to your own ISP, to the NSA. If you're online, multiple people know it. Sometimes it's to make things better, sometimes it's to market to you, and sometimes it's complete BS as in the NSA just siphoning everything without a warrant or probable cause.

When we had a chance to do something about it when this crap started with the Patriot Act after 9/11 and we didn't. Now so many cats are out of the bag that it will take consistent pressure from consumers to wrangle them back in. Which we don't do when it comes to tech because there aren't enough of us that understand it. Which they count on.

[Brian Altenhofel]

Except you can't opt out of this monitoring without being inundated with error messages and therefore crippling your ability to effectively use Windows 10.

[Harold Mansfield]

Except you can't opt out of this monitoring without being inundated with error messages and therefore crippling your ability to effectively use Windows 10.

Yeah, that sucks. I agree. You also can't opt out of your ISP, Mobile company, and the NSA monitoring you either. That's just how it is now and it definitely sucks.
We just have to do what we can to protect ourselves when we don't want to be monitored. Do they work? I don't know. They say they do. I can't open the code to tell. I have no idea what happens when the cord goes through my wall into the outside world. Or where my communications go when they leave my phone and relay from a tower, or which tower it is, what else is on it, who owns the tower, or where else it's relayed.

Do any of us really know for sure?

[MyITGuy]

Yeah, that sucks. I agree. You also can't opt out of your ISP, Mobile company, and the NSA monitoring you either.
While we can't opt out, we can take steps to protect ourselves (I.E. Encryption of traffic/protocols), but again this is something we can't expect the average joe to implement.

[MyITGuy]

MarkMonitor has been around and used by Microsoft, Google and many other brands for years. Like 10.

While that may be the case, there is a huge difference between an ISP sharing traffic details (Unencrypted) and an Operating System logging every keystroke/voice/images/video and sending this information back to themselves/third parties

[Brian Altenhofel]

You also can't opt out of your ISP, Mobile company, and the NSA monitoring you either.

Sure you can.


We just have to do what we can to protect ourselves when we don't want to be monitored. Do they work? I don't know. They say they do. I can't open the code to tell. I have no idea what happens when the cord goes through my wall into the outside world. Or where my communications go when they leave my phone and relay from a tower, or which tower it is, what else is on it, who owns the tower, or where else it's relayed.

Do any of us really know for sure?

You don't have to know about the physical infrastructure. You only have to know what the data is and how it is encapsulated.

On nearly every tool I use, I can audit the code if I want to.

[Harold Mansfield]

While that may be the case, there is a huge difference between an ISP sharing traffic details (Unencrypted) and an Operating System logging every keystroke/voice/images/video and sending this information back to themselves/third parties

The real rub is when someone tries to use this information to prosecute someone or even get a warrant for something, or let's say for instance it's shared with employers doing background checks or creditors. I think that would make people take notice and lose their minds...but then again I thought more people would be up in arms at what the NSA is doing. 60 Minutes did a report on this 6 years ago and showed definitive proof that ATT was helping, and very few people raised an eyebrow.

It upsets me, but does the public care? Doesn't seem like it.
Is it that they don't care or just don't know how it really works and what's going on?

[MyITGuy]

It upsets me, but does the public care? Doesn't seem like it.
Is it that they don't care or just don't know how it really works and what's going on?

I'd agree and state that its a combination of both and when clarified/pressed they will take the position of "If you're doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to be afraid of"

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ~Ben Franklin

[Harold Mansfield]

Here's a really good article by Mathew Green about security, the NSA, ATT and the whole gambit about how there is really no such thing as internet security
A Few Thoughts on Cryptographic Engineering (http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/)

[billbenson]

You know I don't mind the NSA snooping. It's a necessary evil in the terrorism days we seem to have.

I have a much bigger problem with civilian companies collecting or capturing data from my pc.

[Harold Mansfield]

I have a much bigger problem with civilian companies collecting or capturing data from my pc.

Welcome to modern day marketing. It was always the intent of the WWW. Better tracking, more insights, targeted marketing.
It's an ad and sales medium just like Newspapers, TV, and Radio always were.

2 things have propelled technology over the years. Selling stuff and porn. Everything else benefits from the advancements.

[Freelancier]

Microsoft is killing Wifi Sense.

New Windows 10 build kills controversial password-sharing Wi-Fi Sense | ExtremeTech (http://www.extremetech.com/computing/228259-new-windows-10-build-kills-controversial-password-sharing-wi-fi-sense)

[afarlow]

My thing about Windows 10 is that it is a HUGE violation of privacy and except for that one line buried within the 35-page terms that says you give them permission to access everything on your computer (which is deliberate on Microsoft's part - who is going to take the time to read through 35 pages of terms?), this is a violation of the 4th Amendment regarding unreasonable search for Americans who take the bait and install 10. I, for one, will never agree to such an invasion of my privacy by a corporation. (I object to the federal government invading my privacy to such a degree but what do you think I'm going to be able to do about that?) Americans are losing their freedoms one tiny bit at a time and most aren't even aware of it. They'll install 10 and remain ignorant that the OS reports everything to Microsoft, including the contents of folders on the desktop, until such time as law enforcement stops by the house to arrest them for having child porn on their laptop, even though the site they snagged the pic from stated that all models are 18 years of age or older. Then they'll wonder how LE found out... My laptop will get Windows 10 in an update download but I set it to allow me to chose which updates I install.

[Harold Mansfield]

My thing about Windows 10 is that it is a HUGE violation of privacy and except for that one line buried within the 35-page terms that says you give them permission to access everything on your computer (which is deliberate on Microsoft's part - who is going to take the time to read through 35 pages of terms?), this is a violation of the 4th Amendment regarding unreasonable search for Americans who take the bait and install 10. I, for one, will never agree to such an invasion of my privacy by a corporation. (I object to the federal government invading my privacy to such a degree but what do you think I'm going to be able to do about that?) Americans are losing their freedoms one tiny bit at a time and most aren't even aware of it. They'll install 10 and remain ignorant that the OS reports everything to Microsoft, including the contents of folders on the desktop, until such time as law enforcement stops by the house to arrest them for having child porn on their laptop, even though the site they snagged the pic from stated that all models are 18 years of age or older. Then they'll wonder how LE found out... My laptop will get Windows 10 in an update download but I set it to allow me to chose which updates I install.

But you're still not getting it. Microsoft is an easy target, because you can see it, but you never had absolute privacy and your information has been shared from one gathering organization to the next since the day you were born. There is nowhere and no way to hide at this point. It's even too late to go "off the grid". It'll be a decade off the grid, never to be seen again, before the existing information about you is obsolete...but even still it will probably have clues that leads to where you are likely to be hiding.

[Fulcrum]

Microsoft makes it easy for us to pick on them though. I've lost count of the number of people who just don't understand why I don't want to update to Windows 10 at this time.

One of my biggest issues is that I'm not being given the option to fully opt out without having to go into the registry to do it. This, along with all the privacy and security issues, are why I don't want it. Not to mention the fact I'm limited to 75Gb/month data, I use close to that every month already, and I don't want to pay $2.50/Gb overage.

[Schwarzkopf]

Windows 10 was the best thing that happened to me last year. Windows 8 was a nightmare to use when I was building my sites