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Jagella
03-30-2009, 02:23 PM
When I created this comp, I assumed that “Flower Power” was a fictitious business. After checking the URL, though, I see there is a real florist at Dallas Florists - Flowers Dallas TX - Baylor Plaza's Flower Power 800.508.9299 (http://www.flowerpower.com/) . Please keep in mind that my “Flower Power” client is imaginary and has no connection to the real business.

Anyway, I was checking some web-page templates today in Design It Yourself Web Sites (http://www.amazon.com/Design-Yourself-Step-Step-Yourself/dp/1564967603/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238437252&sr=1-1), and on page 78 I saw a template for a florist that looked cool. I decided to create a comp that is based on that template. Please carefully review this comp, fairly consider it, and then give me the big heave-ho. :D

Jagella

http://freeforalldesigns.com/graphics/flowerpowercomp.jpg

rezzy
03-30-2009, 03:01 PM
Let me think.

First the circle blob thing isnt really pretty. I notice you like to put pictures as the header. Try breaking out of that mold. I know it can be hard to try new things, but I notice you tend to fall back to big image up to, logo on the left and nav.

Try to do something a little more inventive or more inspired. Maybe add a call to action, buttons or other elements. The logo looks to ordinary, and maybe even a little techy.

I would expect to see a site like this on a free template website. You are also missing a footer which I believe is important. I think by working with gradients and including a few boxes you could tune this into something more professional.

Jagella
03-30-2009, 05:54 PM
Thanks, Rez. I'll keep your comments in mind as I work on comps.

Jagella

Patrysha
03-30-2009, 07:04 PM
The thing that struck me is that this has more to do (from the images) with gardening than a florist's shop...a florist shop will want to show off their arrangements rather than wildflowers...

I don't know enough about design or graphics to say much else...but I do admire how you always try new things and keep working to improve and expand your skills.

Jagella
03-30-2009, 11:07 PM
The thing that struck me is that this has more to do (from the images) with gardening than a florist's shop...a florist shop will want to show off their arrangements rather than wildflowers...

That's a good point. Maybe the floral arrangements could be placed on the gallery or order pages. The two flowers in the ovals came from arraignments.


I don't know enough about design or graphics to say much else...

All you need is an opinion and maybe a need to buy flowers.


...but I do admire how you always try new things and keep working to improve and expand your skills.

I want to go to the top. How else can I get there?

Thanks a lot for your feedback.

Jagella

vangogh
03-30-2009, 11:18 PM
I agree with Bryan. You do use a lot of images in the header. Not that there's anything wrong with it, but it's good to try something different to challenge yourself. Next time you design a page give yourself a requirement that you can't use a single image. See if you can come up with a design using only solid blocks of color or gradients (yes I know a gradient would need to be an image, but hopefully you get the idea)

In this design the company name is completely lost in the image behind it. There's so much happening in the image that you miss the most important detail on the page.

Jagella
03-31-2009, 12:19 AM
Thanks, Steve. Any advice about the copy?

Jagella

Dan Furman
03-31-2009, 01:07 AM
I'll be honest:

Meh...

That's the word that comes to mind. It's not any one thing wrong - it just looks... it looks like an amateur-made site (sorry).

I don't like the copy either... it's... preachy? Cheesy? And I don't like to be "sold" anything. I'm not sure people care too much about "expert floral arrangers" when it comes to flowers. Just get me a nice bouquet at a decent price, and deliver it on-time without mistakes. That's what I want.

I can't put my finger on any one thing Joe - the whole thing just isn't professional work. Sorry this isn't a nice, constructive review. I wish I could say something more useful... but I can't.

Ok, maybe here's something useful that just popped into my head: I think maybe your biggest mistake was looking at the template and using a "flower" picture as your beginning canvas - it just set the tone for an unexciting "meh" look all around.

vangogh
03-31-2009, 02:21 AM
I hadn't realized you were looking for a critique of the copy too. It doesn't do anything for me. A pet peeve of mine is any site that starts off with the work 'welcome' I don't know what that adds. It's words that keep me from what I want to see.

Your copy seems too focused on the business and not enough on the customer. It's written to tell me how wonderful the experts at Flower Power are. It's not written for my needs as a customer. I'm with Dan. I want to see a picture of the bouquet I'm buying, quick delivery, and a price that seems reasonable.

Ultimately the copy doesn't really tell me anything. It's too general. I assume all flower shops are experts when it comes to flowers and I assume they could all put together something appropriate for the occasion. There's nothing specific in the copy to convince me Flower Power is the shop for me.

Jagella
03-31-2009, 09:50 AM
I can't put my finger on any one thing Joe - the whole thing just isn't professional work. Sorry this isn't a nice, constructive review. I wish I could say something more useful... but I can't.

Ok, maybe here's something useful that just popped into my head: I think maybe your biggest mistake was looking at the template and using a "flower" picture as your beginning canvas - it just set the tone for an unexciting "meh" look all around.

Here's the template scanned right out of the book. Where does the "meh" originate? With Itzkovitch and Till, or with what I did to their template?

Thanks, Dan.

Jagella

http://freeforalldesigns.com/graphics/flowertemplate.jpg

vangogh
03-31-2009, 11:23 AM
I'm not crazy about this design either, but I think they did a better job with it than you did with the copy of it. For one, the image they use in the header is less busy and the logo stands out more (though still not very well). The images they use on the side are each a different color, which adds more interest. The font they chose for the copy is easier to read. Their color scheme works better as well.

Still it's a less than exciting design and looks very dated to me.

Dan Furman
03-31-2009, 12:56 PM
Here's the template scanned right out of the book. Where does the "meh" originate? With Itzkovitch and Till, or with what I did to their template?


I'm not nuts about this design either. I do like the circle pics they used better, but I think the "meh" started there.

Another thing on the copy - never EVER use Times New Roman. It's the worst font ever for the web. Always use Verdana or Arial. It makes a HUGE difference in the first second that I see a page - right away, TNR says to me "homemade".

vangogh
03-31-2009, 01:47 PM
never EVER use Times New Roman

I used to think that, but it really depends on the size of the font. Above a certain size serif fonts can work well online. Too small though and they become unreadable.

Here are both Times New Roman and Verdana at html sizes 1 to 7. I'm seeing them from 10px to 42px. At smaller sizes I think Verdana is much easier to read. At larger sizes I think Times New Roman is easier to read. The issue is at smaller sizes the serifs don't render well, but at larger sizes the serifs generally make reading easier.

This is Times New Roman
This is Times New Roman
This is Times New Roman
This is Times New Roman
This is Times New Roman
This is Times New Roman
This is Times New Roman

This is Verdana
This is Verdana
This is Verdana
This is Verdana
This is Verdana
This is Verdana
This is Verdana

Dan Furman
03-31-2009, 01:58 PM
It's not that it's really unreadable. It's that, in my opinion, TNR subconsciously says "unprofessional". Every "home page maker" (etc) since 1996 has generally defaulted to TNR, making it the preferred font of the unskilled. It's the white bread of fonts.

Whether that's fair or not, just seeing the TNR font says to me: "I am extremely average."

Just my .02

Jagella
03-31-2009, 02:17 PM
Another thing on the copy - never EVER use Times New Roman. It's the worst font ever for the web. Always use Verdana or Arial. It makes a HUGE difference in the first second that I see a page - right away, TNR says to me "homemade".

Would you say that Times New Roman is overused? Normally, I use Arial on web copy, but in this case I wanted to use a serif typeface because the heading on the template uses a serif typeface.


I'm not nuts about this design either. I do like the circle pics they used better, but I think the "meh" started there.

Would you say all this is an example of a difference of opinion, or is it possible to objectively say a design is good or bad? If there's one thing I struggle with as a designer, it's the subjectivity of the work. I realize I'm supposed to please people or at least not displease them, but doing so is a goal that so far has been very difficult for me to meet.

Thanks for the input, Dan.

Jagella

Jagella
03-31-2009, 02:24 PM
I used to think that, but it really depends on the size of the font. Above a certain size serif fonts can work well online. Too small though and they become unreadable.

Here are both Times New Roman and Verdana at html sizes 1 to 7.

Maybe I'm better than average at reading small type, but I didn't have much trouble reading either typeface at the smallest size. If there's a lot of copy to read, then yes, I'd have trouble reading very small serif font. But I'd have trouble reading small sans serif font too.

Jagella

Dan Furman
03-31-2009, 03:36 PM
Would you say that Times New Roman is overused? Normally, I use Arial on web copy, but in this case I wanted to use a serif typeface because the heading on the template uses a serif typeface.


Times New Roman, to me, says "amateur", for reasons stated in another post. It really has nothing to do with readability.

I personally like Verdana best (I have done extensive testing - Verdana works best for me. Most of my clients have found similar resuslts.)



Would you say all this is an example of a difference of opinion, or is it possible to objectively say a design is good or bad? If there's one thing I struggle with as a designer, it's the subjectivity of the work.


I have a basic rule that I follow when it comes to others opinions and/or advice: I generally do not listen much to people who are not doing better than I am. This goes for personal life, forums, etc.

In terms of what we are talking about (online/design/etc), I do think it is possible for some people to say design/copy/etc is good or bad. But these people are few and far between. Here's my test: Are you making a profit/living for yourself online?

If the answer is yes, let's chat. If it's no (or "not yet", etc), well, your opinion carries less weight.

Now, this doesn't mean I don't listen to my customers just because they aren't doing better than me, but the questions are of a different nature. Trust me, if 100 people visit my landing page, and nobody clicked anywhere, they spoke loud. :)


I realize I'm supposed to please people or at least not displease them, but doing so is a goal that so far has been very difficult for me to meet.

In terms of pleasing, I'm not sure how much I'd aim to do if I were you. Please YOURSELF first, Joe (errr... I mean in a design sense :) )

For example, I write the way I write. I do not really write to "please" my clients in a literal sense. I take the lead. I ask the questions, and from the answers, I write the copy. And sometimes, I even have to explain what I did (people might say "but you left this part out, and I really liked that".... and I'll answer "it makes things too wordy, it didn't fit, etc"). In other words, I'm a pro, and I know what's best.

In the end, my clients are pleased because I write really good copy that works, not because they approved everything.

The above comes with experience and confidence. But I would advise you to start pleasing yourself with the design first and foremost. And be prepared to logically and persuasively back up your choice.

vangogh
03-31-2009, 04:50 PM
Dan that might have been true at one point, but there are only so many fonts you can use online and know people will have that font installed on their computer. Times New Roman is a highly readable font (unless it gets too small) and is a reasonable choice for body copy. There is a reason why so much print uses TNR. It's easy to read. If you used it everywhere I'd say it's amateur, but if we're talking about main copy it's one of the few choices available.

Before too long and if/when browsers support css3, we'll be able to use a much wider variety of fonts.

@Joe - I can only make the font so small here and it's possible based on your browser settings that you're seeing it larger than I am. Maybe unreadable was a poor choice of words on my part too. Harder to read would have been better. At smaller sizes browsers have a harder time rendering the serif. I also only used a few words. It becomes more noticeable if you try to read paragraphs at smaller sizes.

Jagella
03-31-2009, 05:43 PM
I personally like Verdana best (I have done extensive testing - Verdana works best for me. Most of my clients have found similar resuslts.)

That's what I want to hear! If Verdana passes extensive testing, then it's the typeface to use on web pages. To heck with opinions.


In terms of what we are talking about (online/design/etc), I do think it is possible for some people to say design/copy/etc is good or bad. But these people are few and far between. Here's my test: Are you making a profit/living for yourself online?

If the answer is yes, let's chat. If it's no (or "not yet", etc), well, your opinion carries less weight.

Yes, I think you have something there, but making a profit is much more than good writing or art as I'm sure you'll agree. How far do you think AC/DC would have gotten playing in front of Lawrence Welk fans? If your work isn't profitable, then it might as easily be your marketing as it is any inherent artistic limitations.


The above comes with experience and confidence. But I would advise you to start pleasing yourself with the design first and foremost. And be prepared to logically and persuasively back up your choice.

OK, let me back up my choice. The comp I created is generally very good. It's bright, colorful, and full of life and passion. It is technically sophisticated and could not have been created without a $900 DSLR and $1,300 worth of professional grade graphics software. Not to mention my years of self-study and rigorous formal schooling in graphic design. The copy assures visitors they came to the right place. If I were to land on this page looking to purchase flowers online, I would convert.

So where did I go wrong? I'm well aware that everything I read online, including this forum, should be taken with a grain of salt. One need not be an expert to come here and post messages. Although I do respect many of the members here including you, Dan, it would simply be unwise for me to invest too much trust I what I'm told here. I have to put more trust in my school and people who write the books I read. After all, they have built reputations for their expertise. I hope you can understand that, agree with me, and not flame me for my impudence. :D

I certainly don't disagree with everything people have said on this thread. The comp should be more evocative of floral work, and some of the photos are too dark. (I tried to adjust them in Photoshop, but I could only brighten them so much without making them look washed out.) Also, the logo could have more emphasis.

Anyway, that's my own viewpoint. Only time will tell where I went right and where I need to improve.

Thanks for the input.

Jagella

SteveC
03-31-2009, 06:52 PM
So where did I go wrong? I'm well aware that everything I read online, including this forum, should be taken with a grain of salt. One need not be an expert to come here and post messages. Although I do respect many of the members here including you, Dan, it would simply be unwise for me to invest too much trust I what I'm told here. I have to put more trust in my school and people who write the books I read. After all, they have built reputations for their expertise. I hope you can understand that, agree with me, and not flame me for my impudence. :D


"Those that can do, and those that can't teach..."

and

"The cream always rises to the top..."

also...

"those without a vested interest will often give you good honest feedback while those close to you or involved will not..."

Dan Furman
03-31-2009, 06:53 PM
OK, let me back up my choice. The comp I created is generally very good. It's bright, colorful, and full of life and passion. It is technically sophisticated and could not have been created without a $900 DSLR and $1,300 worth of professional grade graphics software. Not to mention my years of self-study and rigorous formal schooling in graphic design.


Most of these statements refer to cost of equipment, tech, and school. It's like me saying my copy is good because of MS word and a big degree.

Tell me why it's good in a design / artistic sense, and (and this is important) how it exceeds other professional florist sites (you don't need to tell me - I'm just saying your backup is not very strong.... really, if a client said "I don't like it", you'd convince him or her by bringing up school and software?)



The copy assures visitors they came to the right place. If I were to land on this page looking to purchase flowers online, I would convert.


It does not do that, and it will convert very little, if at all. It does not solve anyone's problems, and touts the wrong things. Think of why someone came to a florist's site. I would guess most came to have flowers delivered. They probably don't care all that much about expert arrangers. Sadly, florists are one of those businesses where for a great many customers, "expertise" and the like don't matter all that much. I just assume that.




So where did I go wrong? I'm well aware that everything I read online, including this forum, should be taken with a grain of salt. One need not be an expert to come here and post messages. Although I do respect many of the members here including you, Dan, it would simply be unwise for me to invest too much trust I what I'm told here. I have to put more trust in my school and people who write the books I read. After all, they have built reputations for their expertise. I hope you can understand that, agree with me, and not flame me for my impudence. :D


I better answered this in another post.



Anyway, that's my own viewpoint. Only time will tell where I went right and where I need to improve.


You will swim or sink on your design expertise, Joe, so how you feel about your own work matters very, very much.

Dan Furman
03-31-2009, 06:59 PM
Dan that might have been true at one point, but there are only so many fonts you can use online and know people will have that font installed on their computer. Times New Roman is a highly readable font (unless it gets too small) and is a reasonable choice for body copy.

I'm going to disagree.

First, I'm not advocating anything odd - I have never heard of Verdana or Arial not on a computer. Not since Windows 95, anyway.

Second, I have thoroughly tested this, both myself and with clients - TNR is a website conversion killer.

Sure, you want to use it in a 16pt headline. Fine. I'll (possibly) concede that. Body copy? At your own peril only.

vangogh
03-31-2009, 07:22 PM
So where did I go wrong?


OK, let me back up my choice.

Joe I pulled both of those quotes because I think the answer to the first lies in the second. One thing I notice you doing often is defending your choices. Why? When you ask for a review you should be listening to what we say and then spending some time thinking about what was said. Defense of your design choices won't help you grow as a designer. They'll keep you in the same place.

It doesn't always strike me that you give serious thought to the critiques you get. Yes all critiques should be taken with a grain of salt, but not in the way I think you take that to mean. You shouldn't take anything we or anyone else says as fact. But that doesn't mean you should ignore what's said either. I think grain of salt means to you to listen to what you want to hear and ignore what you don't.

Post something for review and then think about what's said. Ask more questions to better understand why we're saying what we are. You don't have to change your design to suit any of us, but you should spend time trying to understand why we've said what we've said. That doesn't make us right. But taking the time to think about why we might be right will help you grow.


could not have been created without a $900 DSLR and $1,300 worth of professional grade graphics software.

How much money you spend on design tools has nothing to do with the quality of your work. If you honestly believe that your designs must be good because the tools you use are expensive then you'll never be a good designer. A good designer could create quality work using the default Paint program in windows and notepad.


it would simply be unwise for me to invest too much trust I what I'm told here. I have to put more trust in my school and people who write the books I read. After all, they have built reputations for their expertise.

You put more trust in the people at school because they tell you want you to hear. And I find it insulting for you to imply that they have built reputations while we haven't. Seems to me there are a number of designers here getting paid and making a living and doing quality work. Just because we don't go to your school or have an interest in writing a book doesn't mean we don't know what we're talking about.

vangogh
03-31-2009, 07:28 PM
Dan I guess we were posting at the same time. I would suggest it's not just the choice of TNR, but the way it's used causing the conversion problems. I don't mean the writing, but other issues in the way the typography is designed. You can use TNR effectively and ineffectively much the same way you can use any other font.

Yes Verdana and Arial are installed everywhere. Helvetica is another popular option. Those are also the first three choices for any web designer. There's a reason they get used. They are all easy to read online, but one could say they are also overused.

I agree that some will use TNR without thinking it through and it will be amateur, but I also think some who knows how to design typography can use it effectively.

Dan Furman
03-31-2009, 07:35 PM
I agree that some will use TNR without thinking it through and it will be amateur, but I also think some who knows how to design typography can use it effectively.

All things being equal, though, I strongly feel Verdana and Arial will out-convert TNR online. I can't imagine a copywriter or web conversion expert suggesting someone using TNR on a business site.

Yes, there may be some rare exception to the rule, but I'll stand by that it's a conversion killer, typography designer or not.

Listen, VG, I know you like to take a more nuetral "see all sides" position on many things, so I'll stop now. :)




But it really is a bad online font.

Dan Furman
03-31-2009, 08:01 PM
You put more trust in the people at school because they tell you want you to hear. And I find it insulting for you to imply that they have built reputations while we haven't. Seems to me there are a number of designers here getting paid and making a living and doing quality work. Just because we don't go to your school or have an interest in writing a book doesn't mean we don't know what we're talking about.

Here I wanted to say something like this, but I figured I probably should not, because I'd sound mean or arrogant or both (or worse). Oh well.

But yea, Joe... listen, I realize there are many in this forum not in their own full-time businesses, but again, some of us are, and are doing quite well. Guys like VG and I haven't had jobs or such in years... we work for ourselves and do fine. Care to guess why? Here's a hint: It's not because we're lucky, or lottery winners, or married rich women...

To be honest, I'd listen to VG or myself in matters of design/writing/web conversion/web business before your teachers. Know why? Because they probably have never been paid to actually design a real site for a real business. They've probably never created a site that just works, in terms of profitable conversion.

This site is full of good stuff. Yea, there's some noise from the peanut gallery, but there are some smart people here too. People who are making money online and off.

I'm not downplaying teachers - they are fine to give you a foundation. But you know, my college business professor never had his own business.

Oh, I wrote a book, too. Two, in fact. The second one just got released on Amazon today.

vangogh
03-31-2009, 08:37 PM
All things being equal, though, I strongly feel Verdana and Arial will out-convert TNR online.

You may very well be right. I can't say I've ever run a test, though it would be interesting to see. Also I wouldn't reach for TNR as my first choice. I don't particularly care for it, though I've seen others use it in ways that didn't make me think amateur. Lately I have used Georgia, which is not too far off and works well.

Cool on the 2nd book being released. Now I have to get it and read it.

Patrysha
03-31-2009, 08:54 PM
Totally Off topic - but...just a point about the expertise of florists. They aren't all equal and it does show (for those who are into flowers...though maybe not necessarily the men who need a quick bouquet when for whatever reason a supermarket bouquet won't do)

The busiest and most successful of the three florists here in my town is the one that is known for having the longest lasting flowers. She (the owner) is very on the ball about ensuring the right temperatures are maintained and all the little things that need to be done to make sure that they're in peak condition when they leave the store.

None of the other florists have the same passion for flowers nor the attention to detail that she does...and all the girls in town know it :-)

Dan Furman
03-31-2009, 09:34 PM
Totally Off topic - but...just a point about the expertise of florists. They aren't all equal and it does show (for those who are into flowers...though maybe not necessarily the men who need a quick bouquet when for whatever reason a supermarket bouquet won't do)

"XYZ Flowers - for those times when a supermarket bouquet won't fix things"

Patrysha
03-31-2009, 11:12 PM
"XYZ Flowers - for those times when a supermarket bouquet won't fix things"

Good one Dan.

Oddly enough the one time my husband did buy me florist shop flowers...it made me even madder...by the time I calmed down and could appreciate how pretty they were, they were pretty much dead...

Jagella
04-01-2009, 12:15 AM
And I find it insulting for you to imply that they have built reputations while we haven't.

Steve, now who was it that was preaching the virtues of taking criticism? Or is criticism only virtuous when I have to take it? :confused:

I'm sorry, but I just don't see all that much credibility in what I've been told here lately. You can call that ego on my part or stubbornness, but to me it's critical thinking. I have to judge whether what I'm being told seems truthful or not. Much of it doesn't seem to be accurate. I could be wrong, but until I'm proved wrong, I must remain skeptical.

As for the quality of my education, I'd say I've learned 99 percent of what I know through self-study and my formal education. Guess where the other one percent may have come from.

But, I must also say I've had my share of fun in this forum. I've met some nice people including you. My pursuit of my career and hoped for design-business ownership, though, has to take top priority over any activities I may get involved with in this forum. If it continues to prove unfruitful for me, then I'll need to move on. :(

I was originally going to send you this message via PM, but I thought I'd post it here. I'd like to share my thoughts with other members giving them food for thought as well.

(Joe) Jagella

SteveC
04-01-2009, 01:13 AM
Steve, now who was it that was preaching the virtues of taking criticism? Or is criticism only virtuous when I have to take it? :confused:

I'm sorry, but I just don't see all that much credibility in what I've been told here lately. You can call that ego on my part or stubbornness, but to me it's critical thinking. I have to judge whether what I'm being told seems truthful or not. Much of it doesn't seem to be accurate. I could be wrong, but until I'm proved wrong, I must remain skeptical.

As for the quality of my education, I'd say I've learned 99 percent of what I know through self-study and my formal education. Guess where the other one percent may have come from.

But, I must also say I've had my share of fun in this forum. I've met some nice people including you. My pursuit of my career and hoped for design-business ownership, though, has to take top priority over any activities I may get involved with in this forum. If it continues to prove unfruitful for me, then I'll need to move on. :(

I was originally going to send you this message via PM, but I thought I'd post it here. I'd like to share my thoughts with other members giving them food for thought as well.

(Joe) Jagella

Joe I think your attitude stinks... members of this forum have gone out of their way to help you and they have been much nicer than I would have been...

I personally think as I have mentioned before (on the old forum I think) that you have absolutely no natural talent, you don’t appear to have an eye for design and you understand absolutely nothing about marketing. So whatever you do design cannot work in my opinion from a marketing perspective.

Now that is my opinion and who am I to give it, well I’ve been designing websites professionally since 1996 having first gone on the Internet in 1994... I’m self taught although I have helped various University professors over the years as when I started you could not learn these skills... and even today most Universities are playing catch up to what is happening in the real world.

I’ve design more websites than anyone else that visits these forums, and our customer base is in excess of fifty thousand... (we sold an awful lot of email letterhead)... I’ve been responsible for introducing new technologies and for new ways of marketing... and I’ve successfully run an online technology magazine for over ten years.

I’m paid by companies to review websites as well as build them (that is what I don’t review many websites here for free) and I’m normally a pretty easy to get along with guy as I have a natural talent that makes people like me... and I exploit it to the max. I’m exceptionally good at sales and marketing and I set and achieve goals that would frighten you rigid.

I have my own networking group and mentor various people, I support local charities and local community groups to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars each year... and I believe nothing is better than watching a good cricket match with your friends and getting drunk...

That’s me...

Who are you?

You are someone that uses his disability as an excuse not to succeed (tell that one to Stephen Hawkins), you are someone always looking for an excuse to fail and I think you have one big chip on your shoulder...

You also have an extremely bad attitude... you know nothing about developing relationships with people and to be blunt you seem to need an excuse to fail and I guess this is you pushing that self destruct button.

Dan, Steve and lots of others have spent numerous hours helping you and how do you replay them... by saying their opinion is worthless... let me tell you, I come here purely to get such opinions and advice... it is priceless.

However to you its worthless... I guess, as is this post.

So enough said

vangogh
04-01-2009, 01:27 AM
No worries Joe. Since you don't find the help I've tried to offer useful, I won't bother offering it anymore. Seems like a waste of time.

Patrysha
04-01-2009, 09:20 AM
Wow Joe! Way to berate those who have done nothing but try to help you...

And SteveC I think I want to be you when I grow up...well not the web design part because I truly suck at that...the dedication and the philanthropy and the blazing new trails part :)

Dan Furman
04-01-2009, 12:31 PM
However to you its worthless... I guess, as is this post.


Nice post, Steve. Not worthless at all.

Dan Furman
04-01-2009, 12:59 PM
I'm sorry, but I just don't see all that much credibility in what I've been told here lately. You can call that ego on my part or stubbornness, but to me it's critical thinking. I have to judge whether what I'm being told seems truthful or not. Much of it doesn't seem to be accurate. I could be wrong, but until I'm proved wrong, I must remain skeptical.

The proof is in the bottom line, Joe. Are people buying what you are currently selling?

If not, well, you have your proof. There are no grades or pass/fail in business. You either make a living, or you don't.

You've been at this a long time. Are you making a living off of your skills, Joe?

Jagella
04-02-2009, 10:39 AM
The proof is in the bottom line, Joe. Are people buying what you are currently selling?

Yes. Just recently I made sales to two local clients.


If not, well, you have your proof. There are no grades or pass/fail in business. You either make a living, or you don't.

My business is struggling. I know that running a successful freelance business right out of art school is “almost impossible” according to some artists. It appears that at this point I'll need to work for somebody else for a while to gain more experience and knowledge. I can also save money which is terribly short for me at present.

What is your point, Dan? Are you saying that my struggling business is a result of my not believing everything I'm told in this forum? For the record, I've applied a lot of what I've been told to do in this forum. I'm still waiting for the payoff.

As we both know, though, business success is a result of many factors. In addition to knowledge, energy, networking, location and just plain dumb luck also play significant roles in business success. Please don't try to oversimplify my situation.


You've been at this a long time. Are you making a living off of your skills, Joe?

Not yet. I fully realized from the beginning that my failing at my business was likely. But that's just me. I make a habit of trying to do the impossible.

By the way, I just ordered a copy of Do the Web Write. I'm not crazy about the title, but I'll assume I cannot judge a book by its title. I'll read it and try to apply what you recommend. You claim to know how a business can succeed. I'll put it to the test.

Finally, another member here told me I would need to know how to use Quarkxpress. I was ready to shell out hundreds of dollars for a copy, but my facilitator at the Art Institute told me I didn't need to! She said that knowing InDesign was a very good way to learn to use Quarkxpress. Do you see why I don't see much of what I'm told in this forum as being credible? I could have made a costly mistake. Again, critical thinking is necessary for me to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Jagella

Jagella
04-02-2009, 10:41 AM
Wow Joe! Way to berate those who have done nothing but try to help you...

Do you believe everything you read in this forum? If not, why do you not accept what you don't accept?

Jagella

Patrysha
04-02-2009, 11:02 AM
Believing everything is not the point, Joe.

Appreciating that others have spent the time and energy to give their best ideas, suggestions & comments - even when they don't fit.

Of course, one must keep be judicious about accepting and applying advice...no matter where it comes from. Ideally, it should be confirmed through several sources and not applied as Gospel. That is just common sense.

Nobody is perfect and we all have times when suggestions may be off...or there might be reasons that are not clearly known and visible that may affect the advice...or many other factors that may make anything said on a forum or in a book or even face to face that may not fit the situation.

Still, even imperfect advice is given in the hopes of helping and it's counter-productive to treat those who give it freely with contempt...especially if you find that their advice and expertise is on-target often enough that you may seek further assistance in the future.

Dan Furman
04-02-2009, 11:57 AM
By the way, I just ordered a copy of Do the Web Write. I'm not crazy about the title, but I'll assume I cannot judge a book by its title. I'll read it and try to apply what you recommend. You claim to know how a business can succeed. I'll put it to the test.

Not sure if it will help you, Joe.

You seem to want some roadmap to success. There isn't one. No book can lay it all out for you. For example, everything I tell you in the book is moot if you don't aggressively get the right traffic. Which costs money. Or, everything is moot if your design work or site layout just isn't that good. And while I do tell you what I think makes good copy, not everyone who reads it and applies everything is going to be a good copywriter. It doesn't work that way.

You seem to want some guarantee, some definitive advice/way to succeed. There isn't one. There is no "if I go to school, I'll be a successful graphic designer". There's no "if I have this program, I'll be a successful graphic designer" (like Steve said, a good graphic designer will produce quality work w/ MS Paint.... heck, a pencil). There's no "if I do this, I'll succeed". No "if I read this book, it'll tell me what to do".

All of these things - the books, the software, school - they are all tools, and they can all help to a degree. But a success will be a success with or without the tools. A skilled builder will still build a quality shelter on a deserted island, without a hammer and a saw. You seem to think the tools - school, the books, software, the advice you get... you seem to think those are the keys to success. They aren't. If that was so, anyone could go to school and read a book or two and be a graphic designer (etc). I'm going to go out on a limb and say the tools matter the least.

Thanks for ordering it. I hope you enjoy the book and get something out of it. I really do. But if you are looking for "the secret to success" and are itching to "put it to the test", cancel your order now (or, if it's too late, PM me and I'll buy it back from you.)

Jagella
04-02-2009, 02:12 PM
Appreciating that others have spent the time and energy to give their best ideas, suggestions & comments - even when they don't fit.

But I do appreciate suggestions and comments—even if they don't fit. Just go back over this thread and count how many times I thanked another member for feedback. I never said I don't appreciate anything; I said I don't accept as credible some of what I've been reading on the last two threads or so. Also, I'm seeing egos flair. I don't care how much of an expert another member believes he may be, but I do care to get credible, useful information. It's only fair. I get criticized, so why is it so wrong for me to respond in kind?


Still, even imperfect advice is given in the hopes of helping and it's counter-productive to treat those who give it freely with contempt...

I never treated anybody with contempt.

Frankly, Patrysha, I think you're reading a lot into what I've been saying. I'm not sure why, but I see people do that a lot online. Maybe I rock a lot of people's boats with my unpopular opinions. I tend to be that way. I'm an independent thinker, and I'm not one to go along with the crowd. Is that the source of my troubles? Maybe it is, but it's I. There's only one Joe Jagella, and love him or hate him, you won't get anybody else.

Thanks for the feedback.

Jagella

Dan Furman
04-02-2009, 04:48 PM
I said I don't accept as credible some of what I've been reading on the last two threads or so. Also, I'm seeing egos flair. I don't care how much of an expert another member believes he may be, but I do care to get credible, useful information.

It's not a question of whether or not you accept it. If you don't like/agree with my (or anyone's) advice, so be it. That I can handle. But to say we're not credible? That we have no credentials? That's almost comical.

If you don't agree with something, that's fine, Joe. But you're essentially telling people who make their living designing and writing for websites that they don't know anything about designing and writing websites.

You can simply say "hey Dan, thanks, but I'm gonna disagree and go my own way". Hey, great. Maybe you'll do great and prove me wrong. I'm cool with that (and I'll learn something - always a bonus). But to essentially say on a forum "hey Dan, you're not credible in regards to copywriting", that's another story. I'll respond in the negative to that.


Frankly, Patrysha, I think you're reading a lot into what I've been saying. I'm not sure why, but I see people do that a lot online.

I think it might be the way you are stating things, Joe. Especially if you see this often.



Maybe it is, but it's I. There's only one Joe Jagella, and love him or hate him, you won't get anybody else.


This is a fine sentiment, and it's one I encourage people to think. However, it's not enough to say it - it also must be backed up by positive actions.

For example, part of "me" is that I definitely rubbed most bosses the wrong way. I use that in my marketing. I've been fired a lot, and I wear it like a badge of honor.

However, I back it up by being successfully self-employed. Without that, I'm just an asshole who can't get along with his bosses.

You can go your own way and say "take it or leave it", but you have to be sure there are more takers than leavers. And I don't see that right now. I'm not saying you have to be a business success to feel this way, but if your "take it or leave it" is answered by "ok, bye" time and time again, well, you might want to rethink things.

ok, now I'm really finished w/ the thread. :) There's really nothing left to say.

Blessed
04-03-2009, 12:37 AM
Finally, another member here told me I would need to know how to use Quarkxpress. I was ready to shell out hundreds of dollars for a copy, but my facilitator at the Art Institute told me I didn't need to! She said that knowing InDesign was a very good way to learn to use Quarkxpress. Do you see why I don't see much of what I'm told in this forum as being credible? I could have made a costly mistake. Again, critical thinking is necessary for me to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Jagella

As the other member who told you that you need to know how to use Quark I'll tell you also that your facilitator is full of it if she thinks that knowing how to use InDesign is a very good way to learn Quark. I'm not a betting woman but I'd about guarantee you that your facilitator doesn't use Quark.

My real life has been a bit stinky lately (it's getting better) so I haven't been around much and am doing a bit of catch-up tonight. I haven't finished this thread yet so I might have more to say but anyway... there is my 2¢ about your facilitator.

Blessed
04-03-2009, 12:45 AM
...However, I back it up by being successfully self-employed. Without that, I'm just an asshole who can't get along with his bosses...

Well put Dan - I know several people who can't succeed in self-employment or in working for someone else - I don't do well in large corporations but in small businesses and in working for myself I thrive. What makes me fail in the large corporation world works for me in the small business and self-employment world.