Page Rank is not Marketing

[Harold Mansfield]

I have had this in my head for so long, that I think it deserves mentioning.

I think a lot of webmasters and bloggers get so caught up on PR, that they confuse it with marketing..and it's not the same at all.

We all need to rank for something, it's a given. It shows that people will find you for a given term and that Google doesn't have you in the back of the bus, but, inevitably most of your traffic will come from how well you cover the niche, and how may places you interact with people to promote your site and your knowledge of that niche.

IOW, content will always outshine SEO. If you have good content, good design, and promote well, people will link to you and do a lot of SEO for you.

You still have to get out there to let them know you exist, but attaining that PR is only the first step in the constant battle to scream "Look at me, I have something you may like".

You can do all the SEO in the world and be at the top of the serps, but without great , and I mean a great combination of content...it will all be wasted.

We all need to rank for as many phrases as we can, but PR is not the key to internet riches that so many make it out to be. Good content and good marketing are...just like any other business.

Don't let Google tie you up in knots so much that you let the product suffer.

JMO of course, but it's been bothering me:)

[orion_joel]

I agree here, PR is more a result of marketing, then any sort of marketing in itself. PR was something i spent a lot of time looking at when i did my first round or trying to make an income on the internet, but i let a lot of things slide for a while and now in my second round. Not even looking it, all i am trying to do is provide as much quality content as i can, which i imagine must be working as i am getting some feedback from a few people who like some of the things i am doing.

There are many other ways i think of ranking a site and people need to try and come up with the one that will actually reflect what they are trying to achieve, rather then an arbitrary figure, which really means nothing or very little.

[vangogh]

Agreed. It's not just PR though. People mistake a lot of things for real marketing. PR is measure of links pointing into a page. What we see is not real PR, but rather toolbar PR. They aren't the same thing. PR can also be artificially raised or lowered.

Ranking itself is not the end goal either. In fact with the way search engines currently work, what you see ranking #1 is not necessarily what I see ranking #1. And what each of us sees could change from hour to hour and day to day.

What I see is people chasing tactics without any real understanding whether or not that tactic fits within any overall strategy. People chase after traffic without any thought to whether or not that traffic will be useful to their business, assuming they even have a realistic business model.

[Harold Mansfield]

Took me a long time to not get all stressed out about PR. I actually lost like 3 notches a few months ago, from PR 4 to a PR 1 on one site, but I didn't see a loss of traffic..and I actually started to make some sales during that time...and that's when it all hit me.

[vangogh]

At least you see it now. I stopped worrying about it awhile ago. Sure I'd rather see it go up than down, but the goal is not to increase your PageRank. Usually the goal is to build a business and bring in revenue or leads through your site. PR has little to do with either.

[Harold Mansfield]

At least you see it now. I stopped worrying about it awhile ago. Sure I'd rather see it go up than down, but the goal is not to increase your PageRank. Usually the goal is to build a business and bring in revenue or leads through your site. PR has little to do with either.

Yep, and when I first started with my own sites, I thought I could mathematically make it popular...when traditional marketing (even thought it's online) is still the only way to get the word out.
You have to still do the "leg work" one way or another.

[vangogh]

When business first started moving online it was filling a vacuum and many of those early had an easy ride to success, because of the vacuum. You could make a few quick changes and pull tons of traffic, since you had little to no competition. As their early success was seen others rushed in and the vacuum is now gone.

Unfortunately the idea still pervades that things are easy online.

In truth it's like you suggest. You still have to do the work. Success online isn't all that different from success offline. You still need to develop a sound business model and be smart about how you market. Some of the details may be different now, but the general ideas of running and building a business haven't.

There is no quick road to success. There is no magic formula to ranking. The sooner you can see that the sooner you'll be on the path to success.

[KristineS]

I don't worry about page rank. I worked for an SEO company for about six months, and I discovered a lot of the ways in which page rank can be manipulated, and that made me less worried about it. I want to rank well, of course, but I don't stress about it.

It's as Vangogh says, you have to do the work, and you have to do it in a lot of places. I have multiple measurements for how we're doing, and page rank is only a small part of that. I look at things like name recognition, repeat orders, recognition from industry publications and a host of other things. I want a picture of how we appear to the industry and customer base at large, not just how we look on the Internet when someone searches. Everything is interconnected.

[cbscreative]

I understand exactly where you're coming from, eborg. The idea of PR being overrated is akin to SEO being over emphasized, and I completely agree. Without real marketing, all you get with search engine traffic is "cold" visits that you can hopefully warm up somehow. If you can get them to keep coming back, or better yet have them arrive at least partially pre-sold, then you build trust and sales. But that is very different from SEO or PR.

[greenoak]

i relate to this point a lot....in a more general way...i see many working on their pr and marketing way more than on their product viability , the actual worth of their business idea....sometimes it seems backwards.....thinking here of a girly website for women in business which loves everybodies idea and wants all of them to put huge efforts into tons of marketing......the focus seems really messed up to me...


ann

[vangogh]

Ann are you referring to PR as press release or PageRank?

Marketing in general is important. You need marketing to succeed. You can have the greatest product in the world, but if no one knows about it you won't sell any. Working on your product and business model is important of course. You'll do better with a good product than a bad one. It's much easier to market something good than bad, but you still need marketing.

[greenoak]

both i guess.... the folks i see have their thing and then want to get it up high on google....by page rank or press release or whatever they hear about.......... they are interested in getting their thing out there.....

i hear you on marketing!! i do it al the time...we spend over 600 every month on 3 billboards, im not against marketing..
.but i do think lots of people are buying marketing and listening to marketing advice when actually they would do lots better working on their product and getting good info on the industry they are trying to break into..........
my point is the business wannabees are hearing try this marketing, get your page rank up, and never hearing , didnt you know vcrs are over..or turquioise and brown are over...or you cant make minimum wage with 4000$ of inventory.......in other words they dont hear the kind of info they will understand 3 or 4 yrs down the road when they look back and see the reality....and there are tons of marketing gurus out there ready to help them along....
i can rarely make this point to marketers...but i do think this situation is out there...
i love marketing!!!
also i think my web has produced really big sales but in a different way...more organic maybe...i sure dont get hundreds of hits a day....but i do get customers from it...something is working...but im not sure what you would call it......
ann

[Patrysha]

As a marketing consultant myself , I know there are less than stellar consultants out there out (as there are in any field), but would like to say that there are others who are a bit more choosy in the clients they take on.

For example, there is a store in my town who I will not provide with marketing service until they make serious efforts and strides in their staff training (both customer service and product knowledge) because after researching within the marketplace I've heard the buzz and know that no matter what I might do to get people through their doors it will be useless...

[nealrm]

I think of PR as a competition on getting the prime advertising spot. It is not really much different than competing for a prime billboard location or prime advertising slot on TV or radio. Marketing is the ad you put at that location.

(This is a simplified version, however it would take a book to discuss the details of marketing vs advertising, how to chose the right location.......)

Of course if what you are selling is junk, neither matters a great deal.

[greenoak]

of course there is big money in junk...look at walmart..lol
.anyway just wanted to say i dont blame the marketers....educating the businesses about their product or prospects isnt what you are there for...
but the marketers are sure easy to find...and lots are out there hunting for the newbies....especially work at home moms wanting to cash in on the big easy money of the internet....

[Patrysha]

Ann, I know you didn't blame all marketers. I was just putting it out there that there are some ethical marketers out there.

I agree there are many, many charlatans and snake oil salesmen out there in the industry posing as marketers. Which, of course, means that we, as business owners, have to be very careful and ensure our own due diligence when considering or hiring. Which is sad. Because it adds work to something that should be simple.

It would be nice if there was some sort of certification program, but even if one existed the costs would likely be too rich for a small operation that's just starting out like mine is. Not that it would hold me back for long ;-)

And actually, when it comes to my clients...I do consider it my job to learn everything I can about their products and prospects and, if needed, relate that back to them in terms they can understand and clear steps on what I am doing (or what they should do, if it's just a consult) and why.

[cbscreative]

For example, there is a store in my town who I will not provide with marketing service until they make serious efforts and strides in their staff training (both customer service and product knowledge) because after researching within the marketplace I've heard the buzz and know that no matter what I might do to get people through their doors it will be useless...

I say a double "Amen" to the whole principle you just stated. As marketers, we can only reinforce all the other things a business is doing right and help get their message out. Without good marketing, the best business can fail.

It is possible for great marketing to help even a bottom feeder to succeed (happens a lot actually), so good businesses have even more to gain.

I think one of the problems with marketing is something I was taught in a marketing class that I strongly disagree with. The idea being taught (though worded to sound more respectable) was that marketers should not judge the morality of what they are marketing, just make it work and sell, sell, sell. Since I know this is being taught, much of the bad rep of marketers is well deserved.

I have a much greater respect for those who have enough integrity to choose their clients carefully. Well said, Patrysha.

[cbscreative]

just wanted to say i dont blame the marketers....educating the businesses about their product or prospects isnt what you are there for

Ann, I do need to disagree on one point. I believe educating clients is part of our responsibility as marketers. Business people should understand their product or service, but it's all too common that they get so close to their business that they can easily lose focus on their customers.

Let me illustrate with a common mistake made by small business people in their marketing materials. Look at how many web sites and brochures are written like the company is talking to itself rather than addressing the needs of the customer. If they say more about what they have and what they do than how it solves the customer's problem, then they are losing a lot of opportunities.

Compare these two statements:

"We have been making our widgets for 50 years, and they are made with the latest innovations our elite scientists developed, to assure they are better than any other widget on the market."

"Using this widget will reduce your home energy costs by 15% and pays for itself in an average of only a year and a half."

These are just quick, "off-the cuff" examples, but it demonstrates two very different approaches. Without good marketing help, many businesses sound like the first example.

[KristineS]

I think Marketing and Marketers tend to take a bad rap, much like salespeople, and it isn't always fair. As others have said there are unethical people out there who give Marketing a bad name. I think you'll find those sorts of bad apples in almost any profession. There are Black Hat SEOs and unethical lawyers and doctors and all the rest. I don't think Marketing is any different than any other profession.

It's what you choose to make of it. If you choose your clients carefully, stick to your own ethical beliefs and work to maintain quality standards you can do good work and benefit your clients. If you don't, you won't. It's really that simple.

[greenoak]

steve...your example is great...and what i would love to see a marketer do for me........
thats your field..your expertize....
...but if the customer is in the hairdressing field, i wouldnt think your input on hair products would be very proper....or insightful...
also why would you turn down a paying client...i sell dressers to people who i think will misuse them all the time...like turn themn into sinks....if they pay me and go by my rules what do i care?
ann

[Patrysha]

For me, it's because we live in a small town and word of mouth flies around fast...

Say this particular store did approach me and ask me to help with their marketing...and I did take them on.

What's going to happen when their sales don't increase as much as they expect because of their refusal to do anything about their staff?

A person buying a product can't blame the seller when they trash their own furniture. But if a service like mine doesn't deliver results...the service is going to be blamed.

They were former clients of mine when I was in radio...and I tried to talk to them about staff training programs and performance incentives back then and they blew me off (it's too expensive, the girls just don't have any initiative, they try to get away with as little as possible so it would be a waste of money anyway)

It's really a case of they don't have any respect or trust in their staff and that trickles down to the staff not giving a hoot about the customers. They have a high turnover and are one of the biggest targets for shoplifters.

Plus, they very much blame the customers for leaving town and buying in the city instead of her store. (Claiming the city has just as bad service if not worse...)

There is a possibility that they'd have more respect for my ideas (and actually be willing to implement them) if they approached me as a marketer rather than an ad sales rep, but there's no incentive for me to really try and get their business when there are much less challenging business owners for me to approach.

It's not a point of turning down...I simply don't market to them.

[cbscreative]

Ann, that just brings up an important distinction between a service business and a product business. A service business will likely be more selective in many cases. The hairdresser example would be somewhat in between. As long as the customer doesn't hate the work and badmouth the hairdresser, a strong personality conflict would be the only reason not to provide services. Other than that, there's very little reason for them to care who they provide services to.

When you sell a product, you sell to anyone who will buy it, and there is no need to concern yourself with what they do with it unless it has some kind of negative impact on your business.

My situation is different, just like many other service providers. Speaking strictly from a personal perspective, I don't typically turn down work, I mostly market to attract those who are a good match, which also tends to automatically weed out those who aren't. It's really rare for me to fire a client because I've learned to target the right market.

In reality, marketing does that for any business. You may not be able to control how your product gets used, but you do need to appeal to those who are open to buying something that is not new.

Taking your example of the hairdresser one step further, you're right that I would not be much help in selling the hair care products. That's actually the responsibility of the companies that produce the products, and the hairdresser needs to be an authority to sell those products once the customer is in their salon. My task would be to help that hairdresser get them in the door, and for that, I can definitely help make a difference.

[Business Attorney]

I agree there are many, many charlatans and snake oil salesmen out there in the industry posing as marketers.

While there are probably some "charlatans and snake oil salesmen out there in the industry posing as marketers," I think that there are a lot of supposed marketing "experts" who honestly, but mistakenly, believe that they are good at what they do. They deceive themselves as much as they deceive their clients. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to tell whether someone really has the insight he or she needs to design and implement a good marketing plan for a business.

[Harold Mansfield]

I should have been clear, when I said PR, I meant "Page Rank", but this discussion is even better :)

[vangogh]

eborg I noticed the discussion had taken a turn away from your original post awhile ago, but you're right the discussion is good.


but if the customer is in the hairdressing field, i wouldnt think your input on hair products would be very proper....or insightful

Ann I disagree. A marketer can offer insights about customers. It's quite possible that the manufacturer of the product is making products their customers don't care about or adding things to products that are meaningless to their customers. Is a marketer going to tell you how to make a better hair gel? Unlikely. But they can tell you that your customers aren't interested in hair gel in the first place.

You should be building marketing into your products. Marketing is not something you tack on at the end. By that time it might be too late. You might be making a product no one wants. I think way too many small businesses miss that essential point and it won't surprise me to see many who post after me to disagree.

I'll also agree with Patrysha and Steve. There are clients I won't work for because I don't care for what they're offering or because I think working on their site doesn't help my business long term. There are some who would ask me to do something I don't feel comfortable doing as well. I'm in business for myself for reasons that go beyond money.

[greenoak]

i guess you could look at it that way....but i dont....i wouldnt value furniture advice from my marketer any higher than from my paint supplier ......i would figure i spend a whole lot of time studying my field and i am deeply involved in it..i know the customers, the magazines, the carpenter issues, the colors, i know my location, i could go on and on......and i would gladly hear anyones ideas but why would my marketer know or want to know or have the time to know all that...? especially a marketer who is selling to me one week and to a trucker ccompany the next....now if the marketer was a specialist in my field that would be a bit different..i would go to a marketer for a marketing project not a serious business overhaul...and i figure a good marketing project would be a pretty big expectation and enough of a job for hm without the marketer trying to understand all the parts of my business.......the more he actually knew about my field ,the better of course....

.like i said before,i have deep respect for marketing, even tho we do most of it ourselves......i dont just do it at the end...i woldnt try and sell 200$ baags in my neighborhood...etc..
our business is different, not exactly a service...we are cash and carry and i accept anyone who meets our requirements..i do reccommend our cupboards as displays tho, and hope they work ...but i tell them about the cupboard and its good features,and maybe some general display advice, but not what to put on it or who in their neighborhood would like their product..........
vg, i recommend you a lot for tekk advice and many web things... .....i have deep respect and i feel like you are giving professional service..a wild guess on my part but im convinced!!!. but i dont care about your insight into the french look...you can see it here..on one of my big marketing tools... magpie cottage (http://www.magpiecottage.blogspot.com) ... ..thats my point i guess...and i think steves description of the marketers goal would be mine ...
ann

[Patrysha]

A marketer is not going to come in and start telling you about your business, they are going to come in and ask questions...lots of questions, to understand your goals, your customer patterns and so on. Things that are specific to your business that they will need to know so they can help you look for opportunities in what already exists and help you fine tune things to help you achieve your goals based on the knowledge they bring to the table. Which will vary according to what their skills, abilities and interests are.

They really can't do their job of helping you market without drilling down to the who, what, when, where, why and how of many aspects of your business. Not necessarily every single part of your business, but certainly a solid foundation from which to make educated suggestions on what is likely to work given the combination of your knowledge and theirs.

For example, I don't know that any marketer would be giving you any advice on furniture...but perhaps they might suggest changes to the layout or in the placement of your stock...but not likely specific to the stock/product itself. It wouldn't be pushy like "You should do this", more like "have you ever tried...had you considered" - it's up to you to make the final decision on whether the idea has merit.

For example, I made a few suggestions to a toy store owner about layout, product placement, and signage...simple adjustments really, but ones that had an impact on sales (because small changes can make a huge difference). I did not tell her what stock to bring in or what lines to carry or any of that...just worked with what she had and what she knew of the traffic patterns through her store and with what I knew based on my experience and knowledge compared to what I learned from her about her clientele.

The job is not to come in and revamp your business or change what is working, but to enhance what you have and come up with strategies to capitalize on your USP and to help you find ways to communicate that effectively to your target market.

That being said, if you don't feel you need marketing help, then you don't need one - simple as that really.

As for their working with a variety of different companies that may be diverse...the concepts and foundations they use to advise each client will be the same but the strategies and tactics will be very different. The goal in each case is to maximize return on investment and increase sales. The way they get there with each client is different. There are certainly specialists who do stick with one industry or niche, I know marketers who specialize only in hair salons, others strictly advice restaurants of a certain type and so on, but then there are generalists who don't.

[cbscreative]

Yeah, this discussion has gone from page rank not being marketing more to what is marketing, and I agree that the discussion has been good.

Ann, I happen to know from you being on the forum (and the previous one) for so long, that your knowledge of marketing is pretty good. You've even defied the so called experts in your industry and have profitted because you knew not to follow bad advice. You strike me as being tuned in to your customers. That's what marketers do, and you seem more self sufficient in your marketing than many other business owners. You've also survived a long time in your business, which says a lot.

[greenoak]

thanks.....i wish we had had good marketers to work with...in our small town we have nice minimum wage girls trying to sell ads for the papers and usually different ones every season....so we have had to do about everything...
im always thankfull for the discussions here..and on retail forums.... lots of my good stuff has come from these cyber conversations... and seeing the sites, like eborgs whole blog marketing plots, ...im so not tekky but a lot has soaked in...

our wholesale is just off the cliff down here in indiana....places are still closing or shrinking up...........hope you are still finding some businesses to serve up there in michigan....we are bad but i guess you guys are hurting worse...

[janiels]

I don't look upon PR because I mean it's linked with every steps we make, after creating an interesting blog post, we wanted a lot of people to read it, so we wanted to increase our blog posts visibility by doing blog comments, social bookmarking etc. and with doing all of these things PR just goes along with it..

[Harold Mansfield]

One of the most interesting things that I have discovered in the last year and a half since I started working for myself is no matter how many techniques you read about, rules, and "Guru" speak, there is always a few sites, or blogs that come across your desk that don't seem to follow any of them and yet are wildly popular...it always blows me away.

It can be very humbling to think, "I have done everything that 'they' said to do, and this guy hasn't done any of it and is kicking my ass", but it is also a great learning experience.

It just proves that creativity still rules, and you should always follow the vision that you had when you started the business in the first place.

I think knowing tried a true methods definitely gives you a better understanding of how to execute that vision successfully.

[Patrysha]

From what I've observed the most consistently successful business owners (or marketers) are those who know the rules before they begin to break them...

Another case (IMO) of the exceptions proving the rules.

[fountainhead]

I agree with you that page rank really doesn't affect anything at all, it just represent on how google weighs your site, what matters is what you write on your blog and if it can change the lives of other people who read it, if it was helpful it will surely be popular..

[vangogh]

creativity still rules

Yes, yes, and yes.


know the rules before they begin to break them...

Yes again.

A lot of business and marketing rules should be seen as guidelines instead of absolute rules. Usually the most successful people find ways to break the rules in a certain way that still works. It helps to know the rules first before you break them though.