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huggytree
03-27-2009, 09:33 AM
i had a saleswoman over here this morning for the local phone book

its lower priced and so i usually pay for a small ad.

got 3 jobs from it (all in the first month)...totaling $1,400

last time they said 'oh you got a great deal..the price will be higher this time..sorry'...

guess what they said this time?...' oh i dont know how they got that great price...it will be 33% higher this time'...

she shows me testimonials from other customers(which must mean-it works, so its my fault) and then they always tell me..' the solution for more calls are a larger ad.'....(there are only 3 plumbers listed right now and all have the same size ad..all on the same page).

then i asked how much just to have my name highlighted w/ no 1/3rd page ad? 'well that will be almost as much as a 1/3rd page ad'..

i said im done, unless you can match last years price i will not be advertising anymore...

she told me she's been selling for years and she's never been treated so rudely....i think that was a scam too.

i did bring alot of baggage into this meeting...ive had phonebook salesman i couldnt get out of my house...one forced me to listen to her website listing speech (15 minutes) and refused to be stopper (i even closed my eyes and tried to nap)....

there solutions are always spend more for a larger ad. and the prices always go up...oh yea...they always say 'you got a special deal last year and thats why your price was so low'

my prices dont go up 33% each year...many of my suppliers have held their prices from last year....i expected the same....

anyone else have this continuing price increasing? the phone book is pretty much worthless...im in 4 and some have never even gotten me a job.

cbscreative
03-27-2009, 12:06 PM
Since you provide residential work, I would say the 50+ market will probably use the book, but many might already have a plumber. For most businesses, the phone book is a complete waste of money. You happen to be on the fringe where it may or may not pay off. Since they are desperate for advertisers, you should be able to get a good price. Otherwise, I would say no deal.

In my own experience (which has been a long time since phone book advertising), the classic phone book like AT&T worked well enough. The rest are just noise. Besides, as soon as the extra one shows up on my doorstep, it immediately gets trashed. When I used to keep track of who used what phone book, almost no one used the wannabee versions.

Steve B
03-27-2009, 01:05 PM
I hate the phone books too. I do a 1" - in column ad in about 7 or 8 of them. I carefully track the source of every job and they just barely pay for themselves.

Their fees should be going DOWN as fewer and fewer people use the phone book. However, their paper prices have gone up 5 times in the last 2 years - so they are in a bind - selling advertising space that is becoming less and less relevant as more people use computers, but their costs are going up. Phone books are on the list of things that will be extinct in 10 years. I'll bet they don't make it 5 years.

Dan Furman
03-27-2009, 01:08 PM
Almost shocking how quickly this once "essential" advertising vehicle has died.

I used to sell phone book advertising. It's a tough living, because the customer is always a pissed off person due to the phone book pricing (selling any advertising is rough, though). You have to understand something, Huggy - the salesperson doesn't set the price. Don't take it out on him or her.

The phone company does that because their prices ARE expensive, but the ads used to work really well. Back when there was "one phone book" for an area, the yellow pages were the lifeblood of many businesses. The ads worked - well. The phone company knew this, so they discount the first year to get you in. It's really not a bad thing - once you see how well it worked, you'd want to stay in. It was very effective.

Doesn't work so well anymore now that the effectiveness of the phone book has died, though.

huggytree
03-27-2009, 02:17 PM
1st year was 250
2nd year was 301
3rd year was 380

yea its not much money...but its a small local book too....

can i raise my prices 30% next year?

can you?

they always say they dont know how i got such a cheap price last year...like its a suprise..

she also asked me about my wage structure...saying my hourly rate provides me w/ 50% profit....i explained to her the 3 small projects made me $100 in profit....yea they paid me my hourly wage also, but i dont think that should count...

for a typical $500 phone book ad i would expect $10,000 worth of work to make it worth it....i keep track of where my work comes from...4 phone books together = $3,000 worth of work....$1,500 worth of ads....

not to mention all the wasted time from price shoppers.

i worry alittle since my work phone is a cell phone, so i wont be listed at all now.

do most people look up phone #'s on the internet?...its 50/50 in my house

cbscreative
03-27-2009, 02:54 PM
do most people look up phone #'s on the internet?...its 50/50 in my house

I thought this was an interesting question, so I started a thread to see what others here are experiencing with their web sites:

http://www.small-business-forum.net/internet-marketing/1278-phone-response-web-sites.html

Patrysha
03-27-2009, 03:15 PM
You truly need nothing more than a very simple ad in the phone book in my opinion.

The only phone book advertising that has ever been effective for any of my clients has been on phone book covers which are a separate thing altogether. Less penetration, but a cheaper price too...and highly effective for emergency type services and restaurants...though it's done well for a strictly retail client too.

Community Phone Books got me no phone calls at all...

I have not tried the Yellow Pages and likely won't

huggytree
03-27-2009, 04:31 PM
for me the advantage to the small local phone book is i only have 2 other people to compete with...in the large yellow page books im 1 out of 100 plumbers...

this small local phone book is now only $100 cheaper than the large one...the price is not right.

they know every business needs to have a listing and they got you. they can jack your prices up every year and stick it to you...$5-$10 extra would have been expected..$80 is not.

Patrysha
03-27-2009, 07:12 PM
Yeah, I went for a community phone book listing with an ad and didn't get even one call from it. It would have been nice if it had worked, but it's pretty clear that people are not likely to seek my services in that directory.

Being a service based business you need to be in the book...but I would go with a smaller ad linked to a kick butt website rather than put the money into an ad where you get a lot of tire-kickers.

I have a great recording on Yellow Pages Advertising that was quite eye-opening. It went into great detail about the things that really do affect your return from yellow pages ads...

Dan Furman
03-27-2009, 11:13 PM
not to mention all the wasted time from price shoppers.


C'mon Huggy... It's not wasted time. It's part of business.

Dan Furman
03-27-2009, 11:17 PM
for a typical $500 phone book ad i would expect $10,000 worth of work to make it worth it....i keep track of where my work comes from...4 phone books together = $3,000 worth of work....$1,500 worth of ads....

did you get any referrals at all from any of those customers? Or second/third jobs? Or will you? You have to count that, too.

Also, if the phone didn't ring from these phone book ads, well, what would you have been doing instead? I mean, it's not like these people (even factoring in the price shoppers) kept you from other work, did they?

You're really looking at this wrong, Huggy. When you talk like this, you remind me of my brother in law (a painter). He's always grumbling about "price shoppers". Of course, for every nine price shoppers, he gets a nice job (that's the average, which I made him figure out). That way, he can look at it like "ok, only nine more to go before I get a decent paying job". That's an old sales trick - you get one yes for every X "no's". So every "no" brings you that much closer to a "yes".

It doesn't matter what the number is - if you are turning a profit from the ads, and if that work isn't keeping you from somehow making MORE money elsewhere, you're doing well.

orion_joel
03-28-2009, 02:24 AM
Another way that you can look at price shoppers is practice. It does not matter if you get a job or not from a phone call every time you are practicing your sales technique. The more price shoppers you get the more practice. But also the more chance you will land one trying out a different sales pitch.

Really you should come down to a point where you go hey, this is actually a great time to try this sales line instead of this one. trying different pitches may be a good place to start, maybe they are not price shoppers, and just based on one question you have pit them in this category and as such not really tried to sell to them as you should. Just an idea.

huggytree
03-28-2009, 08:28 AM
next year if they call and offer me a $250 ad again I may sign back up for the local phone book.

right now im trying to think of something else to put that $300 into locally for advertising...the main plumber in this area does yard signs at every job...they are everywhere...

ive considered the church bulletin, but there are already 4 plumbers in it.

Spider
03-28-2009, 09:04 AM
I always chuckle when I hear people complaining about the ineffectiveness of Yellowpage advertising - or any particular advertising, for that matter. Like it's the medium's fault. Some people will take a few seconds to throw an ad togther and think it doesn't produce because there's something wrong with the book, or the newspapre, or the billboard.

The Yellowpages, the radio, tv, billboard...whatever, has one job to do - Get in front of people. The ad is the buyer's responsibility. If it doesn't work, it is because the buyer has produced an ineffective ad. or has chosen a medium that does not serve the people they need to reach, or gets in front of them at the wrong time.

Business Attorney
03-28-2009, 10:38 AM
For what it's worth, I recently replaced my furnace and central air conditioner. I haven't used the Yellow Pages in probably years, but I went straight to the Yellow Pages for HVAC (and would probably do the same for a plumber).

Using the internet is great for most things, but at least in a large area like Chicago, trying to find HVAC contractors on the Internet would be much harder than picking up the Yellow Pages. I wanted to narrow it down to several larger well-established company with plenty of service people to respond if there was an emergency. Since the new equipment will hopefully be around for 15 years, I wanted a company that would be around, too.

Sure, I could do a couple of hours of research looking at websites, but it only took me about five minutes of looking at all the display ads in the Yellow Pages to come up with a list of four or five HVAC companies to call to have them come and quote the job. Yeah, three of the four that came out got only a lead from the Yellow Pages, but one of them got a $10,000 job.

I think it really depends on your market. A lot of personal injury attorneys and personal bankruptcy lawyers advertise in the Yellow Pages in the Chicago area. In fact, the back cover and the inside of the back cover tend to be full page color ads for attorneys. It must work for them. Personally, I have never advertised in the Yellow Pages and never plan to. I don't believe that someone who is looking for a business lawyer will use the Yellow Pages.

I would guess, in your case huggy, that no builder will ever use the Yellow Pages to find you but regular people will. Some years it won't pay off very well and other years it will pay off handsomely. The problem is, you can't know ahead of time whether this is one of those years.

huggytree
03-28-2009, 10:58 AM
it is true that the past 2 years have not been a good time to be in business and maybe i would get a 2x or 3x better response when things improve...

that isnt what the post is really about though..its about a constant 20%-30% price increase every year and when i get upset they say im rude....

this phone book only had 3 plumbers in it....so for a large job all 3 should get a call...that never happened...just minor work....

because all the calls came in the first month only i am assuming people lose it or throw it out after a month.....also making it a bad deal for me...

when i said $300 or nothing she should have taken the $300..im shocked she didnt..i thought they had more room to play w/ prices...i would think the first price is an inflated price and the min,. they would except is 1/2 that....

ive had phone books call me back later and offer me the 'special' rate....i assume they will do that 1 month before printing....and ill go back in.

Dan Furman
03-28-2009, 03:06 PM
next year if they call and offer me a $250 ad again I may sign back up for the local phone book.

right now im trying to think of something else to put that $300 into locally for advertising...the main plumber in this area does yard signs at every job...they are everywhere...


you sound like you are doing this out of principle / spite than anything else. That's silly Huggy. Sorry, but it is. I already told you why they do this - it gets people who would not advertise a taste of what it can do. All yellow pages do this. Don't compare it to your price structure.

orion_joel
03-28-2009, 05:22 PM
There are there businesses that get away with it, my accountant charged one price last year, then when i went this year, got the exact same thing done, in fact spent less time with her because i had all the figures ready she just had to put them in. But the price went from around $150, last year to over $200 this year. The base return fee went up by $10, which i think is acceptable, but she just found another thing to call something else to charge me as well.

Needless to say i am looking for a new accountant.

huggytree
03-28-2009, 07:32 PM
i guess i am doing it partly out of principle...

i dont like to be gouged...i dont mind a normal increase...the union's giving me $2.70 per hour extra in a month....its around a 6% raise....its pretty extreme in the middle of a recession, but it was voted on 2 years ago....

30% though?

for a tiny little local phone book?

its just crazy....everything has a max. price im willing to pay...$380 is over my max for something that really doesnt work...when i pay $400-450 for the same size in a large phone book (which also doesnt work)....

she set me off because i knew how it was going to go. i know their tricks and they are just gouging..

My business phone # is my cell phone...which means i dont get a free listing...because of that i have to pay $1,500-2000 just to get my name in the book.....Its a big advantage being able to answer the phone on the 2nd ring 16 hours a day...i have to accept that a $2,000 phone book bill goes along with that advantage....at a annual 30% increase it will be $10,000 in 6 years....there's a limit....it cant just keep going...

Steve B
03-29-2009, 12:54 PM
"i explained to her the 3 small projects made me $100 in profit....yea they paid me my hourly wage also, but i dont think that should count..."

I've never understood your logic on why your "hourly" rate shouldn't count. Your hourly rate is still income that should be considered when you do any cost/benefit analysis. Especially if you have any down time available (which you have told us you have a lot of at certain times of the year) If you can put your anger about the 30% increases aside, the only "business" question is if the ads will make you more money than you spend on them. You also have to factor in the possibility of future referrals from the jobs.

However, if you want to stand on principle I can applaud that - but, you should at least recognize you are costing you and your family some income as a result.

Another factor that would come into play is if you only have a limited amount of money to spend on advertising. Then, you have to take your best guess at where that money will yield the greatest return. Perhaps you could spend this money on something else that will get your more business. But, if you have an unlimited amount of money for advertising (or can borrow it) I would continue doing anything that breaks even or has a positive return - even if it's only a slight positive return.

Making decisions on advertising is a tough business. It's always a gamble.

nealrm
03-29-2009, 01:07 PM
The truth about hard copy phone book is that are going the way of the newspapers and buggy whips. Even the 50+ crowd is going online to get phone numbers.

I would forget about the phone books and use the money toward PPC advertising, TV or radio ads.

Paul Elliott
03-29-2009, 03:31 PM
The truth about hard copy phone book is that are going the way of the newspapers and buggy whips. Even the 50+ crowd is going online to get phone numbers.

I would forget about the phone books and use the money toward PPC advertising, TV or radio ads.

I, too, would suggest other areas of marketing. However, radio and TV ads can be a black hole into which to throw money. The psychological research shows that it takes an average of 27 TV ad impressions before the viewer actually "perceives" the ad's content and understands the message.

Now, if you could run your TV ad 27 times and be sure that all 27 times it "touched" all an area's viewers, you'd be well-off. However, a given person may not be watching but a small fraction of times your ad was run, therefore, it's an expensive proposition to reach a significant number of people 27 times each.

You have a medium and technique that is paying off for you in the contractor market. How about adapting the same to the residential market in a high-end area of homes. THEN, use w-o-m techniques to get them to spread the word for you.

Yes, portable yard signs when you are doing a job are an effective way of spreading your name to the neighborhood. So are door hangers where city ordinances permit.

You can often negotiate with the homeowner to allow your sign to remain in yard for a week after you finish your job. Add some additional benefit like a free inspection of other plumbing elements in exchange. :D

Paul

Ad-Vice_Man
03-30-2009, 10:12 AM
As many of you know i've worked in media my entire life... No offense but yellowpage sales reps are viewed as the used car salesmen of the advertising world... which when you consider media reps are arlready held in high disregard makes the situation even worse.

Yellowpages is always upselling (because the sales reps get paid more (higher percentage) on the upsell. Actually some phone books don't even pay the rep if they only get the repeat buy from last year.)

The one that kills me is that they want you to pay extra to be in the front of your category. Nice an all except taka a look at an old well used phone book (if you can still find one thats been well used) the pages are all bent in the same direction. A right hand person will use there left hand to fan the pages. BACK TO FRONT to find the category.

Another trick is that they'll create new categories for you so theres not just a plumbers section next year theirs a plumbers-repair, plumbers- new construction... if you do both... now you're paying double.

It's all snake oil sales.

Ad-Vice_Man
03-30-2009, 10:35 AM
Radio and TV have their place and can be successfull people still watch tv and listen to radio and if you have an immediately compelling message/offer you can get direct response but even in the short term it does take repitition... for the right business it can work... Given Huggy's $300 budget... i'd say to pass and do yard signs or door hangars or to hire one of those telemarketer companies to direct dial all the builders in the area to get an appointment for you.

huggytree
03-30-2009, 11:58 AM
Steve B.

i dont count income from phone books except profit because i always look at things as if i were larger w/employees....example: i charge for workmans comp even though i only have the min needed....if i hired an employee i would not need to raise my prices...

its just a philosophy....im priced the same as the big boys.....

in the real world you are absolutely correct...my wages would be included in the money those ads made me....so i made a few hundred....and it will take money out of my familys pocket....and yes we live in the real world....

in the business world i think in terms of profit not wages...everything i spend money on for advertising should make profit...in this case $300 spent made me less than $300 back..it should make 5-10x back in profit i think to be worth it...otherwise you are just making your wages and giving your profits to the advertiser...i should just give all the phonebooks $50,000 in advertising and then give them $50,000 in profits my company makes....i dont see a difference...

im not even discussing all the spent time on price shoppers who call 20 plumbers searching for $10 less than the lowest bid....the phone book gets you 5 price shoppers to 1 real customer.....maybe even 10 to 1....thats all time which could have been used elsewhere....

i just spend $350 on a local golf course sign...i may just call the saved $ a wash...or buy 20 yard signs for local jobs

Remipub
04-02-2009, 06:09 AM
I can only speak for myself, but the only thing I use my phone books for is target practice. It looks really cool when you shoot a big thick phone book. :)

huggytree
04-10-2009, 07:53 PM
here a good finish to this story.

i went to do a watersoftner 25 miles away at a duplex today. i went to side B to turn their water off and my phonebook sales lady opens the door....i started laughing and said what are the odds of this....she said 'its not funny'...then she starts complaining about some plumbing issue which wasnt me...she's blaming me for something thats not my fault....

what are the odds?

1,000,000 to 1?

Remipub
04-14-2009, 03:59 AM
i went to do a watersoftner 25 miles away at a duplex today. i went to side B to turn their water off and my phonebook sales lady opens the door....

You should have said "if you spend more to buy a bigger water softener, and one with fancy chrome accents you'll get a lot more softened water."

;)

huggytree
04-14-2009, 07:02 AM
i also could have raised my price 33%

there were alot of opportunities to me to be a smart ass on this one...

Steve B
04-15-2009, 09:04 AM
I just got one of my (I'm in many) Yellow Page re-newals. It went from $276 per year to $588 per year. Fortunately, I keep good records and was able to verify that I didn't get any sales from that YP listing, so it's a pretty easy decision to drop it.

You have to be careful to read the fine print on how to cancel. In my case, I have to follow the rules of section 3 in the Terms and Conditions (which they conveniantly forget to send you). Luckily, I kept a copy from last year. It's funny how they consider it a valid contract with a verbal commitment from the owner of the company, but the only way to cancel is in writing (with signature), by certified mail, addressed only the Cancellation Manager.

I'll probably get out of all phone books as they come up for a renewal. A couple of them have paid off - but chances are less likely every year they will continue to pay off. I can do better things with the money.

cbscreative
04-15-2009, 11:41 AM
I'll probably get out of all phone books as they come up for a renewal. A couple of them have paid off - but chances are less likely every year they will continue to pay off. I can do better things with the money.

I agree completely. If you total what you are spending with all of them, a well targeted flyer/mailer campaign will most likely cost about the same and provide a far greater ROI. Combine that with referral bonuses and other incentives, and you can shame the phone book response.

huggytree
08-18-2009, 08:02 PM
just thought id do an update to this post since things have changed so dramatically.

this local phone book was horrible for the first 6 months and has been fantastic for the last 5 months. i did $2k yesterday from that book - $5k so far w/ 1 month remaining until the new one comes out.

i have been so happy with it i may advertise in a 2nd one of their books in a nearby high end city.

billbenson
08-18-2009, 10:23 PM
What sort of demographics do you get from the phone books Huggy? New ones arrived for me a week ago and went straight in the trash...

Business Attorney
08-18-2009, 11:57 PM
I keep mine around and rarely use them, but I did use them to get my proposals for a new high efficiency furnace and a new central air conditioner earlier this year.

I am on the internet literally hours every day, but i found it much easier to use the yellow pages for that task. Plus, the size and type of ads helped me immediately narrow down the list to some of the larger companies.

It was the middle of winter (although fortunately a warmer spell) and my furnace was out. I didn't have time to call a dozen one-truck outfits trying to find one that was free on a one- or two-day notice and i didn't have time to call their references. I figured that any company that could afford a large display ad in the Chicago yellow pages had the resources to get the job done. Conversely, with minimal investment, almost anyone can come up with a website that makes them look like a large, well-established company.

I have also used the yellow pages to find a roofer and a fence company. My brother owns a company that manufactures gutter protection and he told me the other day that anyone who sells or installs gutters really needs to be in the yellow pages.

It doesn't surprise me at all that a plumber would get jobs from the yellow pages.

Some day that will probably change. Friends of mine swear by Angie's List, for example. For now, I suspect that for certain types of services, the yellow pages continue to bear fruit.

Paul Elliott
08-19-2009, 05:46 AM
this local phone book

i have been so happy with it i may advertise in a 2nd one of their books in a nearby high end city.

HT, are these the books of the local phone company?

Paul

huggytree
08-19-2009, 08:01 AM
The large phone books get me almost nothing...maybe 100 calls a year, but only 3 jobs

The book im talking about is the small hometown one..yea most people do throw it out, but some dont....

I find these customers all say they want to buy local...i guesstimate 5% of all customers think buying local is important. They seem to think i only drive a few miles to work (truth is i can drive 1 hour or more..i work anywhere)

they have typically been above average customers...my sell ratio is about the same as referral jobs.

im excited to get in their new book in the rich city...i work 15-20% of my time in that city already & would love to become their 'hometown' plumber. Before i agree to advertise I have asked to find out how many other plumbers will be in there....in my current local book there's 3

Dan Furman
08-19-2009, 08:38 AM
The large phone books get me almost nothing...maybe 100 calls a year, but only 3 jobs

Why are you expecting the phone book to get you a job? YOU get you the job - the phone book gets you the call. It sounds to me like the phone book is working (2 calls a week.)

Now maybe this phone book's area isn't your cup of tea, but then don't advertise in it. But assuming these are leads/calls you want, and you're only closing 3 jobs out of 100, that indicates a problem elsewhere, Huggy.

huggytree
08-19-2009, 07:14 PM
i may be exagerating 100 calls, but not the 3

phone book calls are all price shoppers

'how much to install a water heater?' ' ok thank you'

if i cut my price in 1/2 i could get more of them.

50% of all customers only want price....who ever is the lowest is who they choose.
how do those 50% get the lowest price? the phone book

Steve B
08-19-2009, 09:33 PM
I have the same experience as HT. I don't know what the ratio is - but the phone calls that come from the phone book are not even close to the same quality as those that come from anywhere else.

billbenson
08-20-2009, 11:18 PM
If the people are computer literate, don't give them a price over the phone. Send them a budgetary quote by email. Quote different options. That way they have a perminent record of you and your contact. They can see the professionalism. You show them the options with the pro's and cons.

When someone asks me for a price, the first thing I say is "do you have an email" The email keeps on selling after you hang up.

Ad-Vice_Man
08-24-2009, 03:32 PM
Ever consider spinning off a low cost subsidiary.. like toyota spun off Scion?

for examples sake we'll call it "huggy lite" for the price concious consumer that needs simple jobs done. you get huggy quality parts but installed by a handy man subcontracted by huggy. that way you're marketing dollar goes farther... ie those 97 other jobs come in from your YP ad. it's incremental revenue since you wouldn't have gotten that job anyway and it doesn't get in the way of the higher dollar higher profit jobs that huggy would do himself. even if the margins are razor thin, it takes the job away from his competitors with next to no cost (assuming a turn key subcontracted Handyman operating under the "huggylite" banner.)