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KristineS
03-16-2009, 01:08 PM
I'm in a position right now where I'm watching someone I know basically throw good money after bad. I understand that starting a business requires having a dream, but it seems to me there has to be a point where you must admit that the dream has died. Some things simply cannot be made to be successful, that's just a fact.

I know that all of you here are doing well, but I'm interested in knowing what your personal "when" point would be. At what point would you decide that it was time to move on and try something else. What would you take as warning signs that things were going South.

This is also a timely question given that so many large companies are in trouble right now. I'm guessing a lot of them willfully ignored signs that things were going badly.

vangogh
03-16-2009, 02:05 PM
You may not get a completely satisfactory answer. I'm not sure there's a way to absolutely know when to keep going and when to move on to something else. Personally I tend to trust my instincts in the big picture and when something isn't working I look for reasons why and see if I can figure out a way to make it work. I may still change direction slightly, but I sooner look to make something work than to give up on it.

However in working I may not try throwing money at the problem. Perhaps a small amount to test some ideas, but I wouldn't keep spending money on something that wasn't working.

I don't like the idea of letting a dream die. Changing, sure, but not dieing. The only time I would let a dream die is if I realized that successfully achieving the dream wouldn't bring me what I hoped it would.

KristineS
03-16-2009, 03:52 PM
I don't necessarily think it's about letting the dream die as it is about recognizing what's not working and being able to make that conclusion and move on. Some people seem to stubbornly cling to one idea for far too long and, as a result, have to let things die because they're in too far to change direction. It's really kind of sad.

vangogh
03-16-2009, 07:06 PM
it is about recognizing what's not working and being able to make that conclusion and move on

That's understandable. I think it comes down to results. Say you decide to run an ad campaign based around a specific ad. You do need to give the ad time to run to know whether it's working or not. Let's say you decide you'll let it run for 6 months before deciding if it's working.

If after 6 months you aren't getting the results you want then absolutely something needs to be changed. What needs to be changed may not be so easy to figure out. Was it the copy? An image you used? Where the ad was run?

If the results aren't what you would like then definitely take a look and think about what needs changing. But does that mean you shouldn't advertise? Maybe it does. More likely it just means you need a better ad. I took your first post as asking when do you know when to stop running the ad. My answer was to instead look for ways to improve the ad.

orion_joel
03-17-2009, 05:36 AM
If i was to invest a sizable sum of money into a business idea, and was fully motivated on it. I think that i would keep going until i knew if i went any further i would end up in debt and not be able to turn it around.

So i would probably keep putting money into it until i was pretty much broke, and then pull the plug, unless there was some absolute certain way out profitably. I am very finicky on financial things and literally could tell you within about $100 my exact financial position at any time. taking into account most debts and assets. But that is me, and i know there are plenty of people that are the opposite and could not even say if they had anything to their name or not.

Business Attorney
03-17-2009, 12:07 PM
Calling it quits (or drastically veering from the original idea) is often very difficult for an entrepreneur. Of course, that is part of what makes an entrepreneur successful. If an entrepreneur gave up the dream too easily, he or she would probably never make it either.

A couple of weeks ago there was an article in the Wall Street Journal based on in a panel discussion with four prominent entrepreneurs. The article described how one of them, Steve Demos, "spent decades struggling to educate consumers about soy before his company, WhiteWave, hit the jackpot with its Silk soy milk." I'll bet that lots of his friends and family thought that he was nuts to try to convince people to use soy products.

I have seen plenty of entrepreneurs who I thought should call it a day but who continued to hold on to their dream. Many of times, I turned out to be right, at least from an economic standpoint. But there have been other times where they continued to struggle until one day the business turned some magic corner and proved me wrong.

While we may think that we have an unbiased and discerning eye, unclouded by the entrepreneur's obsessive desire to see his dream to fruition, the fact may be that the entrepreneur has a clear vision and that we are the ones who just can't see it right.

KristineS
03-17-2009, 12:34 PM
While we may think that we have an unbiased and discerning eye, unclouded by the entrepreneur's obsessive desire to see his dream to fruition, the fact may be that the entrepreneur has a clear vision and that we are the ones who just can't see it right.

That's entirely possible. I guess I just wonder how you know. I think anything from which you learn something is a success, but the key words here are learn something. If you keep pursuing the same path and it never works properly, isn't it time to look for another path?

vangogh
03-17-2009, 12:42 PM
If i was to invest a sizable sum of money into a business idea, and was fully motivated on it. I think that i would keep going

How much we have invested in the idea does come into play. The more invested whether it's money or effort or emotion the harder it can be to walk away. That doesn't mean there are times you shouldn't walk away, but that it can be harder the more you've put into the idea.

David I believe White Wave is made in my neck of the woods. White Wave is about 10-15 minutes from where I sit now. It's interesting how some people stick with an idea in spite of the lack of success they've had and some in time do make it work. I think most ideas have the potential to be successful, albeit some need to be modified in some fashion. We all have a tendency to later see the idea and give the idea all the credit for the success, but it's really the implementation of the idea that leads to success or failure.

Think of things like the pet rock or the chia pet. Neither is what you'd call a great idea and if someone told you they were going to sell rocks as pets you'd laugh at them, but at the right time and marketed in the right way it turned someone into a millionaire.

Dan Furman
03-17-2009, 02:37 PM
This is a tough question. From the outside perspective, yea, many ventures look like a waste of time. But perseverance is an entrepreneurial trait. That willingness to walk the high-wire, and not succumb to taking the "sensible" route.

Personally, I always ignored most people in cases like this. Because they just didn't "know". You'd almost have an easier time convincing two 15 year olds that they aren't really "in love".

vangogh
03-17-2009, 07:01 PM
You'd almost have an easier time convincing two 15 year olds that they aren't really "in love".

But of course it's real love.

huggytree
03-17-2009, 08:48 PM
i started my business with $20,000 in reserve...ive added my profit to that amount last year....i have not yet excepted my success yet and until i finally say 'im successful and am here to stay' i will not spend my profits.....when things go bad i have that money to live off of...when its gone im done. i go back to work for someone else.

everytime i feel successful works drops badly and i realize im not there yet.

i will not mortgage my house to survive...

vangogh
03-17-2009, 09:42 PM
everytime i feel successful works drops badly and i realize im not there yet.

Maybe when you feel that way you get overconfident or let something slip that you need to do. When you feel like you aren't successful yet it might make you more hungry and maybe you do a couple of things that are more important than it seems.

greenoak
03-19-2009, 07:15 PM
in my area of business there are lots of people who are willing to spend money and years on a dream that isnt even paying minimum wage....thinking lots of women in business and tons of antqiue dealers...
. now if the dream had to bring home the bacon it would be a lot different..then you would have to face the music and do the math a bit sooner.....
hopefully you didnt urge the dream on them...so why worry about it? '
in that state hardly anyone listens to anyone....ann
..

KristineS
03-20-2009, 12:54 PM
No, I would never tell anyone to pursue or not pursue something. I'll give my thoughts and advice if asked, but the final choice would be their choice.

I guess I'm just struggling with what my obligation is or if I even have an obligation. If I know something is probably going to end badly, should I speak up or just stay quiet?

vangogh
03-20-2009, 02:19 PM
I can't speak for your obligations, but with my clients I always try to offer my opinion on what I think will and won't work. If I think a client is wasting money on something I'll let them know. If I think they should be doing something they aren't, I'll let them know. Then it's up to them. I see part of my job as offering advice based on my experience, but in the end the decision is up to the client, since it's their business.

huggytree
03-21-2009, 08:20 PM
im always painfully honest....i always want people to be painfully honest with me!..

your on the outside and can see something they cant...they need to see what you see!

knowing your weaknesses is very important in business...having weaknesses and NOT knowing them is dangerous...

Be Honest!

KristineS
03-23-2009, 08:49 PM
I wish everyone reacted to honesty the way you do huggytree. I agree with you that having weaknesses and not knowing about them in dangerous. If, however, you don't want to acknowledge those weaknesses and learn from them, there isn't a lot those around you can do.

huggytree
03-25-2009, 09:16 PM
if they dont want to acknowledge their problems and weaknesses they will probably fail at business....i think its an important component which needs to be there to some degree.