Should I be upgrading the stereo when buying car? [Archive]

Wozcreative

07-18-2014, 10:11 AM

I recently put in a deposit for a new 2015 Mini Cooper S in Thunder Grey. It's still in production but I am wondering if any of you know much about audio in vehicles? I am still wavering on wether or not to upgrade it from the stock option. It is a Harmon Kardon. Since it's a new body build (F56) vehicle there isn't much reviews that I can find online. Cost is $750. But I will be doing a lot of driving of over an hour to the gun club on a regular basis. I will be leasing so the payments will be $13 higher. It's not a lot but for someone that drives less than 5,000km/year it may be over the top haha. Keep in mind I also fully loaded it, and still want to add tinted windows + stripe decals. It "IS" my dream car so this is why it's a difficult decision. I just don't want my "wants" to be overshadowed by what I really need hah.

What are your experiences? Have you upgraded the audio in your car? Is there a difference for someone who's not musically inclined?

If it helps, the type of music I listen to is Industrial, Darkwave, EBM and some Black Metal.

Freelancier

07-18-2014, 10:26 AM

Have you tried to listen to both radios at the dealer? Usually they have something set up so you can compare (whether it's a couple of different cars on the floor or just a kiosk with the different radios). When we got our latest ride, the biggest thing for me about the radio was to get Sirius/XM, but that's probably standard with either radio you get.

Notice the old fart didn't comment on your choice of music :)

Wozcreative

07-18-2014, 10:38 AM

I never tried it at the dealership... the sales guy told me there isn't much of a difference unless you know what you're supposed to hear. Maybe I should trust the sales dude...

BTW Freelancier, most of the bands I listen to have been around for 30+ years (before I was born)... when I go to shows, the crowd is SO diverse in age. There'd be people with walking canes, and young kids. Weird combo.

Freelancier

07-18-2014, 10:55 AM

the sales guy told me there isn't much of a difference unless you know what you're supposed to hear. Maybe I should trust the sales dude...Generally speaking, this is true, unless you're really looking for "brighter" highs or "deeper" lows or a "rounder" sound, you really won't notice the difference and will get used to it. When I migrated years ago from vinyl to digital, I thought I was going to lose "something", but my hearing ended up detecting more of the music, not less, just because of the reduced noise and imperfections that were in the vinyl.

Sometimes I upgrade the radio if they're giving me junky speakers (and you can usually hear that pretty quickly when you turn it up and catch the distortion), but most radios these days on the high end brands are quite good, so you're probably going to be fine. Just take something you're used to hearing into the dealership, turn it up to the high end of your listening volume and see if it matches your expectations. Focus on the highs and lows, most speakers handle voices just fine, because that's usually in their sweet spot for range.

I'm pretty sure there's been no new music in the past 20 years :)

Brian Altenhofel

07-18-2014, 02:26 PM

Factory upgrade or aftermarket?

HKs are better than most of what is available aftermarket. Even then, the acoustics in a car suck. There are rarely any gains to be made replacing head units these days.

Depending on the speakers it has, that's where you'll make the most gains. But the response of a speaker is dependent on the volume of the cabinet, which in the case of front speakers on a Mini (if I remember right) is the doors. The doors have a very small volume, so you'd generally be looking for speakers that were rated for a small volume cabinet.

You also need to know the output power of the head unit or factory amplifier (if it has one). Ideally, your RMS/continuous output power should be at least 1.5x your speaker's RMS/continuous rating, and really more in the neighborhood of 2.5x for the type of music you mentioned. The reason is to minimize distortion on peaks. Peak power ratings on amps typically only offer ~1dB of peaks and are really only displayed for marketing. You'll see more blown underpowered speakers than overpowered speakers because distortion does damage faster than overpower. By having more power available from the amplifier, you have more headroom to handle peaks without overdriving the amplification circuit and introducing distortion at the amplifier. That's why in live applications such as concerts, it's not uncommon to see 10K watts worth of speakers powered by 260K watts of amplifiers - headroom for peaks.

How powerful of a speaker you need depends on what SPL you want to run within the vehicle. Road noise on my wife's 2006 Mini she had was ~80dB, which meant if we wanted to mostly drown out the road we'd need to have a system capable of delivering 90dB of clean audio. To give you an idea of where that is at on apparent loudness levels, movie theaters tend to run in the 85dB to 90dB range, churches with contemporary services in the 95dB-100dB range, and concerts in the 110dB range.

For how close you are to speakers in a car, you really don't need that much power. Most car speakers are going to have an 85dB sensitivity rating, and assuming you want a listening level of 95dB that means that you'd only need 13W to drive them with 1dB of amplifier headroom (and thus 5-6W of speakers). For a more realistic 10dB of headroom (likely plenty if you're listening to mastered commercial CDs), you'd need 100W (and thus 40W of speakers). That's total among all speakers - an illustration of how so many people go way overboard on their car stereos just to say they have the most "powerful" system.

All that is to say that you likely won't need to upgrade your factory system, beyond maybe adding a subwoofer if they don't offer one as an option (many manufacturers these days are offering them as options now). Even then, you don't need it to be that big. Anything below ~100Hz is going to get muddied up due to destructive reflections in a passenger car no matter what you do.

billbenson

07-18-2014, 06:45 PM

I agree with what Brian said and his information is far more current. My ears are destroyed from all the rock and roll I listened to and firearms I shot.

I think a couple of points are worth emphasizing. In my day, good stereos consisted of a preamp which takes an input, be it CD, radio, etc and outputs it to the power amp. A good preamp will have a good signal to noise ratio. It then feeds that signal to the power amp.

Take any reasonable sound system and slowly turn it up. At some point you will start to hear distortion. This can be from two reasons. You have either overloaded the speakers, or you have saturated the power transistors in the power amp section.

I'm not familiar with the bands you listen to. But without all the technical stuff, I'd look at the specs I mentioned. Beyond that, as Brian mentioned, you are in a car with road bump noise, wind noise etc. Sit in the car, crank a quality recording to a volume you like and see if it distorts. You might want to have an aftermarket shop upgrade your speakers if you drive a lot.

Oh, as to subwoofers. to function well they need to be big. I'm not just talking about the physical speaker, I'm talking about the box it is in. There are a few different technologies for subwoofer design. I used to have a subwoofer that went down to 16 Hz. It was designed for use in the movie Apocalypse Now. It was 4 ft x 4 ft x 2 ft. That would not easily be installed in the back of your car. So to compensate, both in home and car systems, they amplify the higher frequency base. Sucks really, but it's a physics issue.

And by the way, I envy your new car. Mini Coopers are cool. I like all German cars, although my favorite is the 911 series Porsche. I've had a couple. Can't justify it now because my commute is the same as Harold’s, 35 feet on foot. Maybe 4 miles a day driving distance on average. So I have a 94 pickup.

Harold Mansfield

07-18-2014, 08:51 PM

I'm old school. The first things we did to a car, new or used, was get rid of whatever crap stereo it came with, and the rims and tires. That still carries over to today so I like to install my own aftermarket sounds. I know car makers have gotten a lot better, but I'd much rather save on the stereo in the sticker price, and get my own.

I listen to mostly House Music, and there aren't many stock upgrades in the price range of car that I can afford that are going to do it justice.
Maybe when I can start buying $100k cars with Bose Systems I'll be happy with what it comes with. But until then, I'll get my own and do it myself.

For your question, it basically comes down to if you like it. I'm not a big fan of ". the sales guy told me there isn't much of a difference unless you know what you're supposed to hear.". Then why am I buying it? Sounds a little condescending to me.

If it's a good upgrade, anyone should be able to tell the difference. If it's that subtle that the average ear can't tell the difference, then don't do it. If you were an audiophile that was looking to discern every sound wave you'd be doing it yourself anyway and wouldn't trusting some dude at the dealership with your sounds. Especially not after that answer.

I say stick with what you have. Probably plenty adequate. Besides, it's a lease. I wouldn't put a lot of upgrades on a lease. If the stock system leaves a little to be desired, buy your own after market system..put it in for the duration of the lease and take it out to use in your next car. No sense in renting an upgrade.

billbenson

07-18-2014, 08:58 PM

Wozcreative

07-19-2014, 07:30 AM

Thanks for the input everyone! You all made very good points.

Bill - it being a lease is one of the reasons why I'm trying to make "sense" of adding that feature... my brother who is a mechanic and always adding radios into his cars tells me not to upgrade it too...

Maybe it is because I currently drive a Dodge Nitro SLT and the stereo doesn't sound good in that thing, but it is a lower end car and everything is built out of plastic plates that sort of rattle/thumb.

huggytree

07-22-2014, 08:16 PM

2011 Challenger has the high end radio...its absolutely horrible for the $$....it has tons of base, but too tinny sounding...ive spent hours playing w/ it..thinking it was just how i have it setup......it was a horrible waste of $1,000

2013 GT500 has the high end radio and its the best ive ever heard....cant say enough on how good it is......it took a bit of tuning to really make it come alive....even w/ the top down its incredible...your surrounded w/ sound

2011 Traverse...base radio....its decent...probably better than the Challengers high end...ive never had to play w/ the settings to get it to sound good

2012 GMC Savana cube van.....base radio.....POS over all, but it makes sound

i think it all depends on the car....id test drive a few before deciding....im always irritated at how bad the Challenger radio is and how i spent $1,000 for it......if it sounds like my Mustangs radio its easily worth $1k extra......im just amazed how much more i enjoy the car because of the radio
Congrats on the Minicooper.....i think they are pretty cool.....if i was going to buy a micro car its what id choose...i hear they handle great and have decent power......i keep seeing a new smaller/sportier Mini around....its REALLY attractive.....show a pic of what your getting?...

.i own a Minicooper on Xbox One Forza.....

Wozcreative

07-23-2014, 08:21 AM

I ended up deciding on the upgraded H/K radio. I've read that so many people regretted not getting it, but no one complained about getting it. Even if the bass is crap, I can lower it down.. I just want a good surround I guess.

Anyway this is what I ended up getting... thunder grey, 2015 mini cooper S with 17" black rims, pan roof, LED lights and some bells and whistles. I didn't go for the leather seat (leatherette is what I got), and I didn't go with the heads up display and parking assistance. It would have been nice to have that in the Nitro, but not necessary in a cooper IMO.

Here http://img.pistonheads.com.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/Fullsize/mini/hatchback/2-0-cooper-s-3dr-chili-media-pack-xl/mini-hatchback-2-0-cooper-s-3dr-chili-media-pack-xl-73390352-3.jpg

http://img.pistonheads.com.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/Fullsize/mini/hatchback/2-0-cooper-s-3dr-chili-media-pack-xl/mini-hatchback-2-0-cooper-s-3dr-chili-media-pack-xl-73390352-1.jpg

Mini Cooper S (2015) (http://www.netcarshow.com/mini/2015-cooper_s/)

http://img.pistonheads.com.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/Fullsize/mini/hatchback/2-0-cooper-s-3dr-chili-media-pack-xl/mini-hatchback-2-0-cooper-s-3dr-chili-media-pack-xl-74517078-3.jpg

http://img.netcarshow.com/Mini-Cooper_S_2015_1600x1200_wallpaper_58.jpg

If you notice, it's a new body style. It's a teensy bit longer and bulkier. Has a rebuilt engine to match the BMWs and the build quality is a lot richer than the previous 1st and 2nd generations.

I'm super excited... I thought I'd be able to wait until Sept/October but it's getting difficult... :rolleyes:

I am now going to have to be selling my Nitro, probably privately, I am nervous about how that will go, having randoms test drive it.

huggytree

07-23-2014, 08:51 AM

the year after my Challenger they switched the high end radio to H/K and it still got bad reviews.....im sure its a completely different system in every car...also different acoustics......H/K is supposed to be one of the best, so hopefully its just Dodges poor effort and not the H/K system itself

nice car...congrats......you seem to be more of a rebel...surprised you didnt go all out and get the flag on the roof??...

billbenson

07-23-2014, 12:53 PM

I think you are really going to like your car.

I am now going to have to be selling my Nitro, probably privately, I am nervous about how that will go, having randoms test drive it.

I had the fastest Porsche 911 series (it was a 930) in the early 80's. When I sold it the guy that bought it had it up to 90 mph in a 25 mph zone. I took his money and then had a drink.

huggytree

07-23-2014, 06:14 PM

I think you are really going to like your car.

I had the fastest Porsche 911 series (it was a 930) in the early 80's. When I sold it the guy that bought it had it up to 90 mph in a 25 mph zone. I took his money and then had a drink.

ive done 100mph on multiple dealership test drives....one was with the salesman right next to me urging me on

i dont see any Canadian doing 100mph in your Nitro.....Canadians are too passive to speed........arent most Canadian men neutered?

Wozcreative

07-23-2014, 06:32 PM

ive done 100mph on multiple dealership test drives....one was with the salesman right next to me urging me on

i dont see any Canadian doing 100mph in your Nitro.....Canadians are too passive to speed........arent most Canadian men neutered?

I drive the Nitro like it's a mini :rolleyes: - It wasn't my choice to get the nitro though (long story), so I tell people not to blame me! LOL
I am not one to speed though, but I just drive it like a go cart... sharp turns/stop and goes.

At least now with a switch to a mini, my passengers won't be flying around in it.

billbenson

07-23-2014, 10:28 PM

ive done 100mph on multiple dealership test drives....one was with the salesman right next to me urging me on

Ya,but did you do it on a residential street at night with pedestrians crossing the street? I had that car up to 170 mph on a freeway in Texas, but that's different.

Freelancier

07-24-2014, 11:16 AM

blah blah blah 105 mph in a Celica going through South Park on ice packed road with three people screaming in the car.....

Brian Altenhofel

07-24-2014, 01:54 PM

I hope they've made significant improvements since the Gen1/2 cars. My wife had a 2006 Mini Cooper S, and one of the reasons we had to get rid of it was body maintenance. We have very bumpy highways in Oklahoma, and the rural roads where we live are worse. It would cause the external plastic body trim on the A pillars to crack and fly off, and at $80 bucks a pop those add up. When we called the BMW dealership to order the parts (figured they wouldn't stock body parts for a 5 year old car), they said it was such a common problem around here that they kept them on-hand.

We also yanked the front bumper cover off one night after hitting a piece of roadkill. At least all it took to take off was a Leatherman. Popped out the turn signal lenses a couple of times just driving down the road, too.

Tire wear was another issue (also "known" by the BMW dealership). Part of the car's cornering ability came from all of the wheels having a large amount of negative camber, and that resulted in 80K mile tires only being worth 25K miles. Rotating didn't really matter that much because they'd just wear into a V.

Fun little car to drive, but those issues just left a sour taste for us. I admit I drove it hard around curves - there were several times that I was wishing it had deeper rib supports on the seat.

Wozcreative

07-24-2014, 04:36 PM

Fulcrum

07-24-2014, 04:50 PM

i dont see any Canadian doing 100mph in your Nitro.....Canadians are too passive to speed........arent most Canadian men neutered?

I see people driving 100+mph quite often - so often, in fact, that I can't believe most of them get away with it. As to the other two points, not gonna argue about being passive and we're only neutered until we get angry.:cool:

huggytree

07-26-2014, 10:09 PM

i was thinking of your car the other day when a customer had one......his is 3-4 years old (out of the bumper to bumper warranty)....he was complaining about how much more expensive it is to repair.....parts are supposed to be a lot more i guess........its a specialty car, so id assume it would be.........but then again you will probably be out of your lease before it loses its warranty

i may have to take one for a test drive one of these days

i do 100mph all the time...typically on free way on ramps....im able to hit it to 100 and slow back down to 65 before i enter the free way....the wife enjoys hearing the super charger wine and the car slide a bit.......i have had a vasectomy, but am not fully neutered yet..

billbenson

07-26-2014, 11:22 PM

My experience with Porsche’s and I assume that this would follow with other German brands is that they are expensive to repair. Having had a couple I also found that they had very few problems. I suspect that the average maintenance is higher than other some other automobiles, but not that much higher than other quality cars in the long run.

Wozcreative

07-27-2014, 12:55 AM

Yes they are definitely a lot more expensive to repair if something breaks. On labour alone they cost more because of the way the interior is built, everything needs to be removed just to do simple things. It's all BMW parts now too. However I have no charge for any maintenance during my lease period.

My current car is 6 years old, and costs me around 2,000 in repairs, oil changes and other maintenance yearly as it is. Less gas, cheaper insurance, no repairs/maintenance fees and an awesome car to drive? Yea, I'll take a mini ;)

billbenson

07-27-2014, 01:32 AM

Good decision Woz

Brian Altenhofel

07-27-2014, 02:55 AM

he was complaining about how much more expensive it is to repair

Yep.

Most cars you can replace the thermostat for $10-$12 at Walmart, Autozone, O'Reilly, Pep Boys, etc, and it's generally as simple as removing a bit of the duct work, some engine trim, and a hose. 15 minute job without a service manual.

Not on the Mini we had. $90 part that only fit the Mini engine. Remove front bumper cover. Put car into "service mode" (fancy way of saying take a couple of impact guns to a couple of bolts to extend the front bumper out). Remove a bunch of stuff (can't remember what all... it's been a while and I've tried to forget about it). Remove fittings only accessible by cable operated pliers. 2 hour job using a service manual.

Also had a bend in the exhaust between the cat and the manifold crack completely around the pipe. BMW only offered the entire assembly and not individual components and with a $1200 price tag (plus freight, plus labor if not DIY). Ended up using an entire can of PB Blaster to make sure the exhaust manifold bolts weren't going to break off in the block (exhaust is on firewall side, and barely enough room for a ratchet to fit), and had to remove bracing and the front sway bar to get clearance. (In hindsight, it might have been a bit easier to have just hooked chain hoists to the front and rear of the car and lifted the body off.) Once it was out, it only took a few minutes to weld back together.

(Yes, I do like to get my hands dirty.)

billbenson

07-27-2014, 04:15 AM

yep, on my Porsche you had to pull the engine to replace the spark plugs. I have a 1994 ford ranger now. Not the most fun thing to drive, but when you drive a few miles a day...

You are going to have to accept the added expense of maintenance on some of these cars. You are paying more for them as well. But on a quality car, the maintenance that costs money may be less frequent.

huggytree

08-10-2014, 10:01 AM

Elwira hows the stereo? hows the car?

i checked my mustang as its a Kicker 1000 watt......its amazing sounding.....

im curious how good HK is? i know they have a good reputation...and in such a small car id think it would rock.....in Canada i hear the stereo's only go up to 5(they block 5-10)....anything over 5 would not be passive enough and show aggressive tendencies

look for a mini forum w/ local cruises...im sure there is a local group near you......i go on Ford SVT cruises and sometimes Dodge cruises.....its fun enough to do 1-2x a year

Wozcreative

08-10-2014, 06:38 PM

I don't have it yet.. it's still being manufactured. Since it's a 2015, the first shipment will be coming in september/october.
I will surely post pics and maybe clips of how the stereo is and let you know if I've made a good decision lol.

Yea mini has an event coming up where they teach you things on the track. I'm excited to go to that one.

Heres some details about it:

WHERE GPA IS MEASURED IN KPH.
The MINI DRIVE TEST event is a totally free, totally unforgettable motoring experience. In 70 minutes of track time, you and a guest will get to know the New MINI’s powerful new engines and vast array of new features on two specially designed closed-circuit courses!

You'll take the New MINI on a variety of exhilarating skills tests - each designed to show you its best features, and just how many smiles per gallon this vehicular thriller has to offer. We'll even have Professional Driving Instructors there giving you expert tips to transform you into a motoring legend.

So register now, because a motoring event this unique doesn’t come around every day (and also because spots will be filled on a first-come first-served basis).

I will def be looking for local forums with cruise events... not sure what to expect lol, but miniacs are usually fun and crazy.. which is what I like.

huggytree

08-12-2014, 06:45 PM

My Challenger came with a free SRT Track Experience....which is basically the Richard Petty driving experience except for a few days a month they bring out Dodge products and use them.....i bought 2 more Track experiences for my brother and a friend from guys who didnt want it.....it was one of the best days of my life...just beating on cars all day long...track time with real race car drivers...+ a few off track stuff in the parking lot w/ cones(relay races)

its really cool they offer it for free for you....id go yearly if it were free for me....i may have to look into the mini stuff around here and go for the heck of it...the Richard Petty thing is $500 a person(it may be $600 now)

for a vacation i may go to a race driving school some day....id love to take my cars to the race track, but cant see beating on them all day long...+ the stone chips

billbenson

08-12-2014, 08:28 PM

Huggy, I'd like to have some training for my wife. We are in FL so it's unlikely that she will be driving in snow or ice. I've read, for example, that with the new cars, the non slip breaking works really well. An instructor was saying on the news that its hard to get drivers to stomp on the brakes as hard as you can. They won't lock up in the newer cars. The other thing is emergency maneuvering in traffic. Practicing getting out of a spin or staying in control if your car gets sideways etc. Basically, advanced motorist skills.

Have you ever heard of classes like this? What would I search for to find them?

Wozcreative

08-13-2014, 02:27 PM

Theres lots of classes like that available here actually, they cost anywhere from $500 - $3,000 if you are doing a multiple day. Just do a lot of googling.. not sure what they'd be called. "local track racing school?"

Anywhooooooo here's what my mini will look like!! 2 more months.. I cannot wait I can pee myself. As soon as I get it, I am going to blackline all the chrome and add light gray stripes down the middle (not the black ones currently in the pic). The stripes will have to be unique, maybe some pinstripe, i dont know yet.. but light gray on thunder grey would look good. It doesn't come with tinted windows so I will need to do that as well (dealership is charging $500 for that but I am sure I can get it cheaper).

486

billbenson

08-13-2014, 04:01 PM

Pretty cool Woz

Dan Furman

08-21-2014, 09:46 PM

Nothing like a new car!!

mauritafattorini357

09-03-2014, 07:11 AM

It depends if you are really a music lover and really love good sounds. Me, i have a car and i upgraded my sound system because i like edm and techno music whenever i drive i play edm and techno music to be energized.

Wozcreative

11-03-2014, 08:53 PM

So I figure I show it off! After 4 long months of waiting for the custom order.. here it is (sorry for the crummy photos!)

518519520

Consensus on the new car? SO FUN! Totally not like anything I've ever driven before.. it just FEELS like you're in full control and just wants to push you to go faster. The tight corner handling is amazing.

OH! And I did upgrade the audio :)... don't regret it one bit!

billbenson

11-03-2014, 11:43 PM

Cool. Let us know in 6 months when the new toy feel has gone, but it is certainly a car I would think about buying (if I drove more than 2 miles a day :))

Wozcreative

11-03-2014, 11:57 PM

Cool. Let us know in 6 months when the new toy feel has gone, but it is certainly a car I would think about buying (if I drove more than 2 miles a day :))

Sorry.. I've been wanting one for over 8 years.. this "new toy" feeling will NOT go away.. it is a mini cooper afterall! All previous cars I've had were hand-me downs.. not ones I chose/liked.. this is different... this car handles like a video game. I'm looking forward to going to some of the local mini rally events and meetups!

I've been following the feeds and the die-hard mini owners are on their 3rd or 4th mini. I'm a designer.. I get stuck on both the beauty of the product as well as the "community" it's created. As they say with minis.... unique cars require unique drivers.. and I'm kind of an oddball that fits within the mini's realm.

But ofcourse who knows! I may just want another mini (I do actually.. i want the coupe.. but it is not realistic :)