Cops Always Right

[billbenson]

So my wife goes out with a couple of her girl friends at midnight Saturday. I went to bed and left my phone in the other room. My wife’s not a drinker. She had under 2 beers. Bars close at 2am. She went to the house of a friend who recently had a kid.

The kid was constipated so my wife made a run to a 24 hour Walmart for a laxative. The mother lived in a trailer park that is known for drug activity. My wife is driving a brand new $35k Toyota SUV. My wife is latina BTW so there could be some racial issues involved. I have no idea but it does happen here.

So she goes to her friends house, drops off the laxative, and leaves. As it turns out there was a row of cop cars hidden watching the complex because of drug activity. She had to make a U turn leaving.

Cop pulls her over, says its because of a wide U turn, makes her take a breathalyzer. She passes. She says she was tired and wanted to go home. He said she would have to call someone to drive her home.

Now I can understand the cops side of this. She drives into a known drug hotspot and leaves within 10 minutes. A typical scenario for a drug handoff. He probably thought she took whatever drug. That's why she didn't have any drugs in the car.

The thing is she tested negative for excess alcohol, and there was zero evidence of drugs. I don't understand how he could just prevent her from driving like that?

[Paul]

With all the circumstances you explained, late night, trailer park drug location, short stay and wide turn I’m not too surprised she was stopped. But I wonder about the driving her home if she passed the breathalyzer. Maybe they were concerned she was high and was not safe to drive? Racial?, I don’t know, they didn’t arrest her for anything….harassment for the heck of it? Did they drive her car home or did you have to go back and get it?

Many years ago, my then fiancé worked at a bar and got out late all the time. She’d be stopped seemingly randomly. I guess at that time of night coming out of a bar the cops assumed she’d be drunk. Or maybe they were just bored and there were no other cars to pull over at that time of night.

Oh I misread your post...i thought they were gonna drive her home..sorry.

[Freelancier]

A few years back, I was travelling to KC for a corporate meeting and my plane had been delayed, so I got into KC after midnight, had to drive about 40 minutes to the hotel in the suburb the company was located... got pulled over by a cop who said I didn't signal before I changed lanes (seriously?!?) and that was all he needed to claim to take my ID and run a check on me. And I wasn't DW(insert your racial letter here), just someone who was driving late at night. Could be boredom. Could be the assumption that anyone driving late at night is a potential threat/arrest. Hard to know. Since I was out of state, I told him that it was NOT the law in GA that a signal was required for a lane change (and I'm pretty sure it wasn't the law there either, but why get into that with someone who's got a gun?), and he couldn't argue that with me, so he let me go with a warning.

Annoying, but cops with guns are "the law" until you get into a courtroom. You could sue to make a point and I'll bet you'd get money for the inconvenience, but that takes more effort.

[Brian Altenhofel]

I don't understand how he could just prevent her from driving like that?

In most states, legally they can't, but most people just roll over for them. Passing the breathalyzer should have been the end of the stop. There should have been no more interaction beyond "Am I being detained?" or "Am I free to go?". And of course, one should never ever consent to a search.

[Harold Mansfield]

Because just like all other people, some cops are assholes. The problem with knowing your rights, and actually expressing them and getting away with it depends on who you are. Everyone can't deal with the cops in the same manner and still go home to tell about it.

While I've always tried to have respect for police officers (after all I was Military Police in the Army), a few experiences over the years have made it impossible for me to see them as friendly Officers of the law dedicated to serving and protecting the public.

[Paul]

I’ve never actually had a bad experience with police, other than one strange incident where I was pulled over by a bunch of cops with guns drawn and lights flashing. It was at night, something serious must have just happened and they were looking for somebody. They left me and took off down the road in about 30 seconds without explanation. It sure got my heart pumping!

I do know of a few “weird’ and some very scary incidents with cops, mostly at night. It seems to be the late night shift that can go off the rails a bit.

[billbenson]

In most states, legally they can't, but most people just roll over for them. Passing the breathalyzer should have been the end of the stop. There should have been no more interaction beyond "Am I being detained?" or "Am I free to go?". And of course, one should never ever consent to a search.

Brian, what do you mean by the above in bold? If she knows she's clean are you afraid they would drop a bag of drugs in her car?

The cop also got pissed when he ran her license and she had never had an arrest or a ticket...

[Freelancier]

If she knows she's clean are you afraid they would drop a bag of drugs in her car?Doesn't matter if it's clean or not... better that you assert your rights than to acquiesce and lose your rights. The courts are clear, anything they find in the car once you agree to a search is fair game. A little baby powder can be construed as cocaine in the hands of an ignorant cop, really screwing up your evening.

So the smart move is to insist on a search warrant if they want to search the car without cause. And to make sure you get the cop's name and badge number, which they're usually obligated (at the least by department rules) to provide.

[Wozcreative]

When someone states they are "tired", sometimes it is also just as bad as drinking and driving. If she looked very tired, they reserve the right to do that for safety.
Especially if she was pulled over because of a wide u-turn/wonky driving..

[billbenson]

When someone states they are "tired", sometimes it is also just as bad as drinking and driving. If she looked very tired, they reserve the right to do that for safety.
Especially if she was pulled over because of a wide u-turn/wonky driving..

I've never heard of that but either way, with a bunch of cop cars hanging out in the dark across the street from a know drug hot spot. Cop wasn't interested in someone who says they are sleepy. Particularly when he runs her license and her license and it's spotless.

[Fulcrum]

I know in Ontario where I live, a person can be charged with impaired driving for being excessively tired. Don't ask me how they can prove this, but maybe it's the same in your area.

[billbenson]

Doesn't matter if it's clean or not... better that you assert your rights than to acquiesce and lose your rights. The courts are clear, anything they find in the car once you agree to a search is fair game. A little baby powder can be construed as cocaine in the hands of an ignorant cop, really screwing up your evening.

So the smart move is to insist on a search warrant if they want to search the car without cause. And to make sure you get the cop's name and badge number, which they're usually obligated (at the least by department rules) to provide.

Good points.

[Wozcreative]

I've never heard of that but either way, with a bunch of cop cars hanging out in the dark across the street from a know drug hot spot. Cop wasn't interested in someone who says they are sleepy. Particularly when he runs her license and her license and it's spotless.

If she wasn't drinking, they didn't search her (so they don't expect to see drugs in there), they ran her license and found nothing.. everything points to her looking and being too tired. The fact that they pulled her over for strange driving, confirmed she wasn't under the influence, they must have concluded that she was too tired to drive.

[Wozcreative]

I know in Ontario where I live, a person can be charged with impaired driving for being excessively tired. Don't ask me how they can prove this, but maybe it's the same in your area.

Yes I'm from ontario too.
They even have a thing where if you are driving and behind the wheel, and suddenly become too ill while behind the wheel and need an ambulance (you simply pull over and don't cause an accident on the side of the road), doctors and/or police can temporarily take away your license for 3 months as a safety precaution.

[billbenson]

Just called an attorney friend. He said the cop did her a favor. He could have arrested her if he thought she was impaired for any reason at all. Tired, drugs without evidence of it. a wobble in her step. She could even be arrested for being impaired even if she blows under the legal limit.

So he could have arrested her and she would have had to go to court.

So Woz, you are completely correct.

[Harold Mansfield]

I've never heard of that but either way, with a bunch of cop cars hanging out in the dark across the street from a know drug hot spot. Cop wasn't interested in someone who says they are sleepy. Particularly when he runs her license and her license and it's spotless.

I've spent 4 days in jail with a spotless license, and no criminal charges. Every cop in America cannot be trusted. Some have their own personal agendas and they are going to mess with certain people more than others. That's just the way it is.

[billbenson]

Ya, and you can't take profiling, conscious or subconscious out of the picture. If you are in an area where a certain minority commits most of the crime you are going to to give them a second glance. If I were a cop I would. My wife is Latina in a Latino drug area.

Same could be said for hookers. If you are dressed like a hooker in an area frequented by hookers, cops probably going to think you are a hooker...

Data mining by law enforcement is pretty much the same thing.

[Harold Mansfield]

Ya, and you can't take profiling, conscious or subconscious out of the picture. If you are in an area where a certain minority commits most of the crime you are going to to give them a second glance. If I were a cop I would. My wife is Latina in a Latino drug area.

Same could be said for hookers. If you are dressed like a hooker in an area frequented by hookers, cops probably going to think you are a hooker...

Data mining by law enforcement is pretty much the same thing.

For some people it doesn't really have anything to do with the area that you live in, what kid of car you drive, how you're dressed or anything else. It's about who you are. Being in a low crime area is sometimes even worse than being in a high crime one, cause now they want to know what you're doing there. It's a no win situation that has nothing to do with geography. It's personal.

[JayPack]

But also keep in mind that being tired is just as dangerous as being drunk.. I am not saying that your wife was in such a state, but from the cop's perspective, maybe she was...

[Business Attorney]

But also keep in mind that being tired is just as dangerous as being drunk.. I am not saying that your wife was in such a state, but from the cop's perspective, maybe she was...

There have been several recent well-publicized fatal accidents caused by tired drivers. My scariest moments driving have been when I felt like I was falling asleep at the wheel. I used to like driving overnight with the kids sleeping - little traffic and no listening to fighting in the back seat. No more.

You wife told the police officer she was tired. That is certainly enough for him to have her get someone to drive her home if he felt she was a threat to her own safety or the safety of other drivers.

[Brian Altenhofel]

Doesn't matter if it's clean or not... better that you assert your rights than to acquiesce and lose your rights. The courts are clear, anything they find in the car once you agree to a search is fair game. A little baby powder can be construed as cocaine in the hands of an ignorant cop, really screwing up your evening.

So the smart move is to insist on a search warrant if they want to search the car without cause. And to make sure you get the cop's name and badge number, which they're usually obligated (at the least by department rules) to provide.

Yep. Though you can revoke consent at any time, and the search must stop, or anything found thereafter is inadmissable.

Part of the risk in consenting to a search is you might be in possession of something illegal even though you have no reason to believe it is illegal. For example, here in Oklahoma, knife laws vary from city to city and county to county. A pocket knife that a 5 year old Boy Scout might receive as a prize could be mean jail time in some towns. Any prescription medication not in the person's name or not in it's original container could be a felony. Some household items that you might normally purchase all at once at the grocery store could result in being charged for intent to manufacture illicit substances simply because you happen to be in possession of most or all of the necessary precursors.

These are just examples that I have knowledge of actually happening.

[Wozcreative]

The other thing that most people don't know when you first get your license is that 1 drink (one beer, or one shot, or one glass of wine), takes about 2 hours to get out of your system. If you are a female and if you are older, and or bad health, or obese, this goes up to 2.5 - 3 hours or so to get out of your system. So basically if you go drinking and driving 3 drinks, you need a total of 6+ hours to get that out of your system.

This is why SO SO SO many people get caught in the mornings! They drink all night, got to sleep and drive, and blow over the limit. They don't know it, but they have alcohol in their system still. You only learn about this when you get a DUI and they make you take a drinking and driving course. The system is setup where you don't get enough information, you drink and drive, and pay the government up the creek with the fines because you didn't bother to do your own research.

[JC]

I got pulled over once driving through a mixed black/white neighborhood for being white lol. The cops were actually really cool with me and told me they were profiling me and I actually didn't mind.
I had another instance when a cop gave me 4 tickets at once, simply coming out of a mobile home park as a teenager. One was for running a stop sign after the front end of my car rolled a couple feet past the sign as he was pulling me over. That's my bad cop story, but I did go to court and they waived all but the speeding.

[billbenson]

Wife had some profiling issues a couple of years ago. She's Latina. She was getting pulled over once a month. I almost bought a dash cam. Red lights she didn't run etc. Marked and unmarked cars. It was during a time they were really cracking down on illegals in our area. To the point of having buses near Latino bars and a ton of cop cars on a Friday night at 2 am outside Latin bars.They would fill up the buses and take everybody off to jail.

They would also pull her over and get pissed when she had an address in the good part of town and had my last name which isn't Latino. I'm figuring they figured they had an easy conviction and she is perfectly clean. Neither of us have ever been arrested.

But some conscious or subconscious profiling needs to be done. A law enforcement officer has to make a judgment call to do his job. And it's not always race. To me that is profiling. Sometimes I'm clean shaven and sometimes I don't shave for two weeks and look like a vagrant. I drive an old beat up truck. Of course the cop is going to run my plate most likely before pulling me over and find out where I live and my history. That certainly helps.

IMO you could even consider sales or dating profiling. You make a judgment call based on surroundings and other factors.

One last note. Several months ago my wife was pulled over at 2 am ish coming out of a trailer park known for drug activity. She has a friend there who ran out of diapers for a newborn. My wife made a Walmart run for diapers for her friend. Hiding outside the trailer park were a bunch of cops. When she came back with the diapers she entered the trailer park, dropped off the diapers and left. To a cop, that could very much look like a drug exchange given the time of night and the fact that she was in and out in a few minutes.

She was pulled over. She had consumed one beer earlier and easily passed the breathalyzer. But she was detained, told to either call a taxi or friends to drive her home. She got a hold of some friends.

At first I was pissed. Then I called a Lawyer friend of mine. He told me the cop did her a favor. He could have taken her to jail for being impaired. In Florida, you can be impaired at the officers discretion for any reason including lack of sleep. It's your ability to drive, not just drugs or alcohol etc. She would have had to get a lawyer, go to court and spend a bunch of money.

Yes sir, no sir, can I call a taxi or friends sir?

[NorCal]

So my wife goes out with a couple of her girl friends at midnight Saturday. I went to bed and left my phone in the other room. My wife’s not a drinker. She had under 2 beers. Bars close at 2am. She went to the house of a friend who recently had a kid.

The kid was constipated so my wife made a run to a 24 hour Walmart for a laxative. The mother lived in a trailer park that is known for drug activity. My wife is driving a brand new $35k Toyota SUV. My wife is latina BTW so there could be some racial issues involved. I have no idea but it does happen here.

So she goes to her friends house, drops off the laxative, and leaves. As it turns out there was a row of cop cars hidden watching the complex because of drug activity. She had to make a U turn leaving.

Cop pulls her over, says its because of a wide U turn, makes her take a breathalyzer. She passes. She says she was tired and wanted to go home. He said she would have to call someone to drive her home.

Now I can understand the cops side of this. She drives into a known drug hotspot and leaves within 10 minutes. A typical scenario for a drug handoff. He probably thought she took whatever drug. That's why she didn't have any drugs in the car.

The thing is she tested negative for excess alcohol, and there was zero evidence of drugs. I don't understand how he could just prevent her from driving like that?

Law Enforcement is like many other professions . . . you'll find success in areas where you have been successful. As a young cop in training I was driving with my training officer behind a pack of about 30-40 cars traveling across the Golden Gate Bridge. My training officer asked me, "If you could stop any of these cars, who would you stop and why." I scanned the crowd and noticed a car with a taillight out and replied, "I'd stop that one." My training officer pointed out a truck and told me to stop that vehicle, and I better find a reason to do it before the next freeway exit or I was toast."

End result, I stopped that truck and the driver had about 1/2 pound of meth and the passenger had a felony warrant.

I remember asking my training officer, "How did you know. "

His reply, "The car you wanted to stop for a taillight was a $80K BMW with an owner that looked normal. The driver of that truck had a tattoo on his neck, and people who make good life decisions don't get vsiable tattoos on their neck."

Understand he was an old cop from a different era that might not be considered "Politically Correct" by our standards today. But it still produced results . . . . so who is to judge. A bleeding heart liberal could argue the point, and a conservative could argue the other. But in the end, you stick with the method that generate results. . . .

[Brian Altenhofel]

Any half decent criminal defense lawyer would get that dismissed if the filed report was honest.

[NorCal]

Any half decent criminal defense lawyer would get that dismissed if the filed report was honest.

And how did you come to that decision counselor?

[Brian Altenhofel]

My training officer pointed out a truck and told me to stop that vehicle, and I better find a reason to do it before the next freeway exit or I was toast

...

His reply, "The car you wanted to stop for a taillight was a $80K BMW with an owner that looked normal. The driver of that truck had a tattoo on his neck, and people who make good life decisions don't get vsiable tattoos on their neck."

Both of those statements would be damning if in a report or picked up via recording equipment. I've seen decent criminal defense lawyers do a lot more with a lot less. I've also been in law enforcement classes where the content centered around plausibly fabricating the events that led up to an encounter.

[NorCal]

Both of those statements would be damning if in a report or picked up via recording equipment. I've seen decent criminal defense lawyers do a lot more with a lot less. I've also been in law enforcement classes where the content centered around plausibly fabricating the events that led up to an encounter.

I think what your concentrating on is what got his initial attention and confusing that with what was used to make the traffic stop, the investigation, and the subsequent arrest.

What I left out was the probable cause for the stop, and what occurred following the traffic stop. The fact was that the vehicle had no mirrors, giving me probable cause for the traffic stop. Then when I approached the driver's door the dope was in plain sight and the passenger immediately notified me that the dope belonged to the driver and that he was on probation and didn't want to be caught up in the dope the driver had in the vehicle. The case actually did go to court, and the probable cause for the stop was upheld, as was the investigation that followed and both parties were convicted.

I would advise that you should not rush to quick to make a judgement based on what you learned taking a few college classes; all I was trying to illistrate was how each occurrence has its own unique circumstances. . . and the things you don't know could change your opinion.

[Brian Altenhofel]

I think what your concentrating on is what got his initial attention and confusing that with what was used to make the traffic stop, the investigation, and the subsequent arrest.

What I left out was the probable cause for the stop, and what occurred following the traffic stop. The fact was that the vehicle had no mirrors, giving me probable cause for the traffic stop. Then when I approached the driver's door the dope was in plain sight and the passenger immediately notified me that the dope belonged to the driver and that he was on probation and didn't want to be caught up in the dope the driver had in the vehicle. The case actually did go to court, and the probable cause for the stop was upheld, as was the investigation that followed and both parties were convicted.

I would advise that you should not rush to quick to make a judgement based on what you learned taking a few college classes; all I was trying to illistrate was how each occurrence has its own unique circumstances. . . and the things you don't know could change your opinion.

I didn't take college classes. These were official training courses required for continuing education.

Anyway... I know of more than one case that was dismissed because of what happened prior to the stop even with valid cause. For example, there was one around here a couple of years ago where a person was arrested for possession with intent to distribute (which only requires that you have cash on you and "leafy substance" here) and paraphernalia (a tobacco pipe). Probable cause was failure to signal. The dashcam video revealed that the intent to stop was established about a minute before and based on the content of a bumper sticker. First lawyer said "take the plea deal". Second lawyer that cost 3x as much per hour (and had no political ties to the area) got it dismissed.

We recently had several thousand DUI cases become likely to be overturned if they decide to appeal because of a nice technicality - the big breathalyzer used at most of the police stations did not have maintenance procedures provided by the manufacturer and therefore could their calibration status could not be considered trustworthy since there was no official maintenance regimen to follow. (The roadside breathalyzers are considered too inaccurate to be admissible as evidence even if calibrated though they can be used to establish cause. Every officer will tell you that refusal to blow the roadside one will result in license revocation even though that only applies to refusal to blow the one at the station, just like every officer will tell you that failure to consent to a search establishes cause for arrest and thus allows search incident to arrest.)

[NorCal]

(The roadside breathalyzers are considered too inaccurate to be admissible as evidence even if calibrated though they can be used to establish cause. Every officer will tell you that refusal to blow the roadside one will result in license revocation even though that only applies to refusal to blow the one at the station.)

You are horribly misinformed as far as the law is concerned. But if that is what you derived from your course work so be it. . .

I'd side with my training and experience. Agree to disagree.

Cheers.

[MikeyBW]

I've never heard of someone being prevented from driving home after passing a breathalyser, I am from the UK though. I've been pulled over countless times for no reason, once because my headlights were switched off for a second when exiting a lit car multi-storey car park at night. Call me sceptical but more often than not I think they're just chancing it hoping they'll hit the jackpot and pull over a drunk driver. Kind of like cold calling as a salesman, everyone's got targets to hit...

[billbenson]

I was at my partners home about 1.5 hours from where I live. I drove home today. I have a sleeping disorder. Last night I went to bed at 1am, woke up at 3 and couldn't sleep for several hours. I got up and watched tv. Finally got to sleep but got up a few hours later. For me, if I don't get enough sleep - I need about 9 hours to feel good, alert, functional, intelligent - its functionally like the worst hangover I've ever had or being drunk. I drove home in freeway heavy traffic. I drove the speed limit and kept a lot of car lengths between myself and the car in front of me. But there is no way I should have been driving.

So I think its good that a cop can make that decision. I just think it was excessive in the case of my wife in the first post on this thread.

[NorCal]

I'll give you a real world example that happen to me when I was a rookie.

During a weekend night on patrol at about 2am as the local bars were closing, I was driving behind a car that was drifting back and forth and unable to maintain their lane. My first thought was that the driver was drunk, given the area, the time of day, and my driving observations. I initiated a traffic stop and encountered a elderly male who spoke with a very heavy German accent. His eyes were bloodshot red, but with his accent I couldn't determine if he was intoxicated or if it was just his accent. I asked where he had just been, and he stated he was at a wine bar in town, and he had a glass of wine. (99% of people who were DUI always claimed to have one or two drinks) I initiated a DUI investigation and asked him to step out of the car so I could do a investigation using field sobriety tests. As the driver stepped out I noticed he was an amputee with a prosthetic leg. I had him conduct several field sobriety tests which he failed; but given his handicap it was understandable why he failed.(but if he was actually intoxicated, and I released him; I was afraid if he got back into the car and killed someone later, I would be to blame for letting him go) It was difficult for me given all of what I had seen if he was actually intoxicated. I asked him to blow for me using my portable breath test device; but he vigorously refused. So I arrested him under suspicion of DUI, and transported him back to the station. While processing him in, he conducted a breath test using the stations DOJ calibrated breath test system. End result, he blew goose eggs, "0-0-0" meaning he had zero alcohol in his system. Needless to say I was shocked. He was all over the road when I was driving behind him, his eyes were bloodshot red, and he appeared to be slurring his speech; although I was not positive on account of his accent.

In speaking with the man following the test, he begin to say that he was extremely sorry. I was taken back, because in my mind, I had just detained this guy and caused him a lot of inconvenience. The man explained that he grew up in Germany during WW2, and just the sight on my uniform made him want to resist me out of spite. In further conversations, I think we both realized how wrong we both were; but given the circumstances, our behavior was a result of our past experiences.

End result, law enforcement is not an exact science. Many cops find success in areas where they have previously found success. In my case, he appeared intoxicated and he was driving in a area which was normally saturated with intoxicated drivers given that time of night. But so long as this profession is conducted by human beings, there will always be a certain degree of error. Even when the best intentions are at play, its just the way it is.

[billbenson]

How long were you a police officer and how long ago?