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Aaron Hats
02-23-2009, 10:59 AM
If I find an image on the web and want to use it in my blog how should I do it? Do I simply say where I got it from? As an example, pictures of celebrities from the Academy awards or even pictures of men wearing hats from the late 1800’s.

Thanks.

vangogh
02-23-2009, 12:18 PM
That can be a bit tricky to answer. Technically you can't just grab someone else's image and use it without their permission. However you are allowed to use images if they fall under what's called 'Fair Use' The problem with Fair Use is the definition is vague as to what's fair.

I would think the images you're talking about would qualify as fair use. The celebrity images are public figures taken in a public place. Images from the late 1800's might even be public domain by now.

One thing you can definitely do is go to a place like Flickr and search for Creative Commons licensed images. There are different CC licenses, but at least one version allows you to post any images as long as you give an attribute to the original Photographer. There's actually a plugin for WordPress called Photo Dropper (http://www.photodropper.com/wordpress-plugin/) that makes it easy to search Flickr for CC licensed images.

Plugin or not I'm guessing the images you want to use will be fine, but it can depend on the image and the photographer.

nealrm
02-23-2009, 01:14 PM
That can be a bit tricky to answer. Technically you can't just grab someone else's image and use it without their permission. However you are allowed to use images if they fall under what's called 'Fair Use' The problem with Fair Use is the definition is vague as to what's fair.

I would think the images you're talking about would qualify as fair use. The celebrity images are public figures taken in a public place. Images from the late 1800's might even be public domain by now.

All photos are copyrighted to the photographer when they are taken. The photographer retains the copyright until they specificly sign away those rights. The copyright lasts for 50 years after the photographer (or copyright holder dies) unless extended.

The copyrights for the celebrity photos is owned by the photographer or his employer. You MUST have their permision to use those photo on ANY website.

The above is also true for the older photos. However, it can be almost impossible to find out who owns the copyright or if the copyrights have expired. If you decide to use the photos and the copyrighter objects, you can be held liable.

So, to answer your question. You need to find out who owns the copyright. Write them a letter asking permission to use the photo on your site.

Aaron Hats
02-23-2009, 01:18 PM
VG, Thanks for the info. I did some searching through Google Images and found several identical images posted on many different web sites. Maybe I'm being a little over cautious.

Aaron Hats
02-23-2009, 01:20 PM
The copyrights for the celebrity photos is owned by the photographer or his employer. You MUST have their permision to use those photo on ANY website.


What about all these celebrity gossip and fashion blogs that are all over. Are they all using these images without permission? I guess we can't really know for sure.

nealrm
02-23-2009, 01:24 PM
No - you are not being over cautious. Your hat blog appears to be used for advertising your business. Use of the photos without permision could result in you be held liable for damages in the range of 5 times revenue generated plus legal fees.

Go out to Istockphoto. You can easily find photos of almost anything. You then can have a legimate photo with no damager of being sued.

nealrm
02-23-2009, 01:30 PM
What about all these celebrity gossip and fashion blogs that are all over. Are they all using these images without permission? I guess we can't really know for sure.

It's hard to know for sure. But, if the site is large, has a significant revenue stream and associated with a know magazine, they will have some arrangement in place. In some case the photos are syndicated.

If these are small, no name sites they could simply be flying under the radar. It is unlikely the copyright holders would go after someones hobby site.

vangogh
02-23-2009, 01:40 PM
Aaron just because the images are on different sites doesn't mean those sites had permission to use them.

Neal is right about the old photos. At some point they'll pass into public domain, but that may or may not have happened yet. Copyrights generally don't last forever, but they can last a long time.

However the odds are that none of those sites will get in trouble or sued. In all likelihood the worst cast is they may be asked to take the images down. While copyright laws do exist I think they're becoming ever more difficult to enforce online. For example if the site using the image is in a foreign country which country's laws apply. And how exactly do you sue someone in another country. Personally I think copyright laws need to change to reflect the reality of the web since current copyright laws are much harder to enforce than they seem on the surface.

Neal do you know if using something for commercial use automatically excludes it from fair use? For example Google stores everything you place online on their servers and anyone can access your content through Google without ever visiting your site. They're clearly a commercial entity and yet no one is likely to win a lawsuit against them. I believe it's been tested and it's considered fair use. You can easily look at Google though and see their business model as profiting off your content without your direct permission.

Fair Use laws have always seemed a bit murky to me.

nealrm
02-23-2009, 01:56 PM
here is page from the copyright office talking about "fair use"
U.S. Copyright Office - Fair Use (http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html)

So based on this, use of a photo on a site that is advertising a business is not fair use.

As for Google, you can opt out of having Google browse your site. That is how they get around some of the copyright issue. Also, many of the suit are still pending or have been resolved out of court. So I don't think that area is completly stable legal wise.

To put this in perspective, photographers feel the same way about photo use as webdesigners feel about the use of webpages. You can use the photo (Webpage) if you pay for it.

vangogh
02-23-2009, 02:25 PM
Thanks for the link.

With Google the opt out is a cop out. By the same token then, any of us should be allowed to use any image we want and let people know if they don't want us using their images they can opt out too. if you did that you'd be doing the same thing as Google. Requiring people to opt out of something that steals your content by default is highly questionable.

I'd rather people didn't steal my content, but some do. I think if you don't want that to happen you have one and only one option. Don't put it online. If you place something online understand that it's likely someone will take it at some point and there may be very little you can do to prevent it regardless of what the law says.

Instead of worrying about it and fighting it I find ways to make it work for me. For example by using absolute links in a post to other posts on my site I get free low quality links from anyone stealing my content. If you're a photographer only use low res images online that can't really be printed in any useful way. Or even give some images away for free for the marketing and branding benefits.

I understand why copyright laws exist and I agree with the spirit of those laws, but the reality is they've become very difficult if not impossible to enforce online in many cases. I've watched some people spend countless hours trying to fight content theft to no avail. I'm not saying it's right to allow people to steal your copyrighted content and images. I think it's wrong and I think you should always seek permission to use someone else's image online. The reality though says it's time to rework copyright laws.

Aaron Hats
02-23-2009, 02:29 PM
Glad to see this has generated some discussion. I think I'll just keep doing what I've been doing and use vendor supplied, istockphoto and my own images.

vangogh
02-23-2009, 02:35 PM
Aaron if you use the Photo Dropper plugin it's very easy to add images to blog posts and the images will all be licensed to use on your site.

Aaron Hats
02-23-2009, 06:43 PM
I just installed this plug in and you won't believe this. My first search was for "fedora" and a few pages in I find a picture of our Indiana Jones display somebody took while in the store. Too funny!

vangogh
02-23-2009, 06:52 PM
That is funny. It's a small world huh? What do you think of the plugin? After I used it for awhile I started to really like it? Now when I'm editing a post I always search for some images to add.

Aaron Hats
02-23-2009, 07:12 PM
I'm not sure about it yet. In the first couple searches I did I didn't find much that was applicable. I'm going to try it out though as I write for the next couple weeks.

vangogh
02-23-2009, 07:34 PM
I find some searches bring back nothing and others bring back a lot. Sometimes the images that come back don't really fit what I searched for. I think it's based on how people tagged the images at Flickr. Usually if I refine the search a little or use a synonym for the key word I'll eventually something I can use.

It's like search in general. Sometimes the better you search the better the results you get back.

Harold Mansfield
02-28-2009, 08:25 PM
Aaron, I do know that a few of the paparazzi photographers and companies have websites that you can buy a membership to for use of the photos on the site. They are generally not the money makers that they sell to the big publications but sometimes it may be the next shot just after.
Unfortunately I can't link you to one, but I remember seeing some sites like this last year and the memberships were not that expensive.

Of course, if celebrities are already under contract for a hat maker, and you sell the hats, I am almost positive that you can use the marketing materials as you wish.

I take images from Google all the time for events that I may write about, or press releases that are sent in...for some reason, promoters (no matter how much I beg) continuously forget to send me the logo, or promo flyer...so I am always searching for it online, and even sometimes I end up snagging it from the events website.
I have never had anyone complain about doing this, and they know I do it, but I am doing it to promote them and their event. (I also link to the website, my space page or whatever else they have.)

I think they would rather I do it that way, than to attach a photo of my own that has nothing to do with the company or event, and many times I'll get an email apologizing for not sending the press photos.

Celebrity photos on the other hand are big business. A good shot will get a photographer 10's or 100's of thousands, so I would be very careful using photos that you are not authorized to use.
Actually, I wouldn't do it, unless it is a publicity photo that everyone has, or is sent out to the press anyway.