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Jagella
02-22-2009, 03:39 PM
During the last six weeks or so I was working on a new logo for Van SEO Design (http://www.vanseodesign.com/). I was assigned a school project in which I needed to redesign a logo for an existing business. I chose Steve's logo to redesign because I know he's contemplating a new logo, and I know that Steve is a good person to work with. The final result is below.

http://freeforalldesigns.com/graphics/steves_logo.jpg

I arrived at this design through a process of concept development. I started by analyzing the needs and objectives of Steve's business. Once I had that information, I better understood the problem I needed to solve. To get some ideas about what the new logo might look like, I researched the logos that other design businesses use. I then brainstormed by creating 16 hand-drawn thumbnail sketches. After having my facilitator and other students review the sketches, I chose what I believed were the two most promising sketches and created roughs using Adobe Illustrator. I used only black and white when creating these roughs so I could focus on shape and typeface. I also created two more concepts when using Illustrator. Once I felt I had a rough that was most promising, I created six alternatives and posted them for review. Based on the feedback from that review, I chose what was the most promising rough and started adding color.

I believe the colors I chose may have as much impact as the shape and typeface. After doing some research on the meanings of different colors in different cultures, I chose blue to symbolize knowledge and orange to represent creativity. Any design firm should focus on its knowledge of graphic design and its business, and the need for creative thought should be obvious. I tried applying blue and orange to different parts of the logo and concluded that “SEO Design” should appear in orange to impress with a feeling of creative solutions in both design and search-engine optimization. The rest of the logo appears in blue to lend an impression that the business is based in knowledge.

Finally, I did some research about the use of logos as registered trademarks. Since registration with the United States Patent Office (USPTO) is not yet complete, I cannot use the ® symbol on the logo. In its place I'm using the letters “SM” to designate the logo as a service mark.

Questions and comments are welcome.

Jagella

SteveC
02-22-2009, 04:38 PM
The simple answer is I don’t like it, I think it looks amateurish; I think it shows a lack of creativity and well, I don’t think it presents a professional brand image, especially as you were recreating a logo I would have expected something better than the original.

I know I’m being harsh and I actually thought about not posting this; however as a designer you need to learn to accept such comments and learn from them and move forward... they are after all my opinion only and you did ask.

Jagella
02-22-2009, 06:00 PM
The simple answer is I don’t like it, I think it looks amateurish; I think it shows a lack of creativity and well, I don’t think it presents a professional brand image, especially as you were recreating a logo I would have expected something better than the original.

I know I’m being harsh and I actually thought about not posting this; however as a designer you need to learn to accept such comments and learn from them and move forward... they are after all my opinion only and you did ask.

Actually, it's not the logo I think I would have chosen either! When I brainstormed, I came up with logo ideas I thought are better than this one. What really matters, though, isn't what I like—it's what my client and target audience like. After several reviews, this is the design that survived.

Jagella

rezzy
02-22-2009, 06:01 PM
Although you are quite well versed in the legality of logos, I think the logo looks ok, but it lacks something, that would pulls it all together, maybe a bit of refinement.

Since logos are commonly the symbol of a business, this logo doesnt really communicate what I think represents the business.

With logos today, using glosses and other textures to create depth this logo simply looks flat and non-inspirational. This logo slightly makes me think about Wal-Mart and their previous use of the star.

Currently, the color scheme doesnt seem to really grab my attention. Its simply text, a circle and a star. Steven, uses the vangogh symbol quite extensively to further brand his business, try incorporating that in someway, which will combine to the two entities.

SteveC
02-22-2009, 07:54 PM
Actually, it's not the logo I think I would have chosen either! When I brainstormed, I came up with logo ideas I thought are better than this one. What really matters, though, isn't what I like—it's what my client and target audience like. After several reviews, this is the design that survived.
Jagella

To some extent I agree with this and on another level I totally disagree with it... clients come to you for your expertise, they expect you to know what you are talking about and to guide them along the way, so that what they end up with works.

Now, this means that on occasion you will argue with clients and in some instances you will say no to them... because your experience, that the client is paying for tells you there is a better way of doing this... because you know what the client wants will not work, etc...

To give you an example and I have lots, last week a client who we are designing a website for gave us an coloured in sketch of a truck they wanted this to feature on their website... and upon seeing the image... we thought, that will never work, it will never create the impression we are after... so we simply told the client that, the client said that the boss wanted it... we stuck firm and said no... Because we know that the end result will not work, and will not generate the results the client wants...

We also have to worry about our own brand and the impact of having a poorly performing website that looks a mess... because a client wants it that way could be far more damaging to us that telling the client no.

Hope this helps... and sometimes saying no is the hardest thing and on occasion you do lose the odd client because of it, but I think we also gain more as a result.

Hope this helps.

huggytree
02-22-2009, 08:25 PM
i think when you look at a logo you should be able to tell what the person does without reading the words

i like it when they use a symbol which somehow says 'this is what i do'

for a plumber a pipe wrench
for a carpenter a 2x4

something like that....

i do like the shooting star thingy though.

it does look like a rough first draft and not a finished product.

Dan Furman
02-22-2009, 08:37 PM
i think when you look at a logo you should be able to tell what the person does without reading the words

This thought is good for your line of work (and similar), Huggy, but it's not a rule with logos in general. Otherwise, you'd have Nike with a sneaker, and McDonald's with a burger. :)

That said, I don't like the logo at all, Jagella. I agree with the thought that it looks amateurish. Sorry, but it does.

Jagella
02-22-2009, 10:39 PM
Thanks, Rezz. Your comments are well taken.

Jagella

Jagella
02-22-2009, 10:51 PM
i think when you look at a logo you should be able to tell what the person does without reading the words

i like it when they use a symbol which somehow says 'this is what i do'

for a plumber a pipe wrench
for a carpenter a 2x4

I used to think along the same lines, but I've had a change of heart. Logos represent more than products; they can also represent the business itself, the target market, the internal culture of the business, or a lot of other things. Maybe newer businesses might benefit from a logo that represents a product of the business, but as time goes by people know the business and its product. The product then becomes less important.


it does look like a rough first draft and not a finished product.

I basically feel the same way, but I did what I had to do. In school, the teacher is always right. If I were creating a logo like this “for real,” I'd spend a lot more time researching Steve's target market and working with Steve himself to come up with something more appropriate. Under the circumstances, I wasn't able to do so.

Jagella

Blessed
02-22-2009, 11:34 PM
I don't care for the logo either... I'll be interested to see what Steve has to say about it.

I don't like the colors - I think they are too common, orange is better than red but it has become the "new red" lately I've seen it used over and over and over again

I don't like the swirly things and I don't like the font.

I'm drawing a blank on coming up with anything constructive to say. If you presented this logo to me I'd say scrap it and start over.

Sorry to be so harsh... I'm also interested to hear what your professor has to say about the logo.

vangogh
02-23-2009, 12:54 AM
Sorry I'm late to the discussion, especially since my name will naturally be bandied about within this thread. Before giving some thoughts on the logo itself I know Joe had a specific assignment with some specific design constraints placed on him by his professor. Also even though the logo is one for my site it's not as though Joe had my ear through the process asking me questions as though I were an actual client. Joe's certainly asked me questions over the months about my business, but it wasn't as though he was able to ask me questions throughout the design process.

I can't say I'm crazy about it either. I know it's not the direction I would go. It's hard for me to see it on my site given the rest of the site, though I realize you weren't necessarily trying to match the logo to my current site. As you can imagine it's hard for me to be completely objective since I see my company name in the logo. Quite honestly it would be hard for me to see a logo for my company designed by anyone but me.

What I'm trying to see is if it conveys any sense of my business and me and I'm just not seeing that. The name is there and reading the words you could tell what the business is about, but I'm not getting a sense of me in it. I'm not sure anyone other than me could really get me in there, though in all fairness.

Some of my objections are simply the colors. Not that there's anything specifically wrong with the colors, but they aren't my colors and while the logo is probably more one for a generic design company it is my name in the logo so it's hard not to want my colors in there.

I do like the swoosh on the right actually. I like the sense of movement it conveys. I don't however like the one coming off the V. It's not as open as the curve on the right, which doesn't feel right to me.

When I created my logo I intentionally kept it simple and wanted it to mainly be text. I played around with the words on different lines like you have, but never liked any of the ideas with it that way. I always preferred seeing the name on one line. The idea of changing the color of the words is one I certainly went with and I played around with which word should be the different color. I even tried 3 colors in the type, but it seemed like too much. While the word I really wanted to emphasize was design I felt having seo as the one in the alternate color was the only way to show each word distinctly using only two colors. I also played around with other ways to contrast the words, but you either have to go big with the contrast or it doesn't stand out.

I think that's what your aim was with the bold on seo, but I don't think it goes far enough to have it stand out and because it's the same color as design I don't feel the contrast.

The idea of having the image convey what the business does without the words can be tough. I agree with Dan that it may work with some businesses to use an object related to the business, but with some businesses it can be more difficult. I also think using an object can come across a bit cheesy if not done well. I remember when Steve, the other Steve. No not that one, the other one. You know Steve, cbscreative. When he was reworking his logo he was also looking for that object that would define his business and struggled for awhile. Most of the obvious symbols I see for a design or marketing business are just that, obvious. They seem done to death. In my case I chose a color wheel since I thought it defined at least part of what I do and it was a way to add a little more color to the logo without having the color over power the logo. It's also something I hadn't come across before (though I imagine someone's used it) so it felt somewhat original to me.

Joe I'd be interested in knowing what the original assignment was and what the constraints imposed by the professor were.

billbenson
02-23-2009, 10:14 AM
Jagella, you might want to protect your graphics folder. If you type in the path to the folder, you get a full directory listing. An empty index.html should do it.

Spider
02-23-2009, 11:51 AM
Actually, I didn't dislike the design of the logo but I did find it flat. As someone before me has suggested, some image depth would make a world of difference and might then point to more appropriate colors - I think stronger/darker colors would remove the washed-out appearance I see.

Could the blue be a royal blue or even a shade darker and 'glossy-looking'? Or bottle green, for a better transition from VG current color scheme?

Perhaps the star could be glossy gold, with the variations of gold color to give a real gold effect.

And the red-orange text (or different color - pale blue, maybe) given 'weight" with a shadow-effect. However, shadow effects don't seem to work well in print, so another way of adding weight might be better, if much on-paper reporoduction is contemplated.

Just my thought...

Jagella
02-23-2009, 05:16 PM
Joe I'd be interested in knowing what the original assignment was and what the constraints imposed by the professor were.

Steve, the initial assignment is as follows: “By Thursday, January 22, 2009, choose a prospective client and develop a design needs/objectives analysis for that client. Document your results in written form and post to the appropriate Discussion Area..” The client turned out to be you, of course.

The next assignment was: “By Saturday, January 24, 2009, develop six or more (exploratory) logo designs. Although you are only required to submit six designs, you are encouraged to submit more. Upload at least four out of the six designs created to the Discussion Area. The logo designs should be based on information revealed through the design needs/objectives analysis. Exploratory designs should be in black and white only, and can be produced in digital or non-digital fashion. Non-digital work should be scanned (digitized) and converted to JPEG format for uploading.”

I posted my sketches, and my facilitator commented: “I think you can expand on 15, which is now your second concept. Think about have the swoop come through some of the wording so that it is all much more integrated. Maybe a thicker swoop will work better. See the example, this will show how a swoosh can go through the wording.”

One of the other students replied: “ 15 hands down. I love the flow and simplicity, with a bit of drama added to the text. Quel personalité! :) ~Although at first I was confused because I thought it was a "C" and a check and then I was like, oh, it's part of V. I think you just need to tweak it, which certainly comes a bit later since these are just thumbs. This is a fantastic idea! I hope you use this one because I think it will be really great! :)”

After adding the color another student commented: “Hi Jagella, this is very nice and I think your rationale for the new design really works well. I think this is the most stylized design you've come up with yet. Very nice!”

Anyway, I think you can see where all this was going. I was told my work was appropriate, and I went with what seemed to work best. I felt all along that you and some of the other designers here wouldn't agree with some of the concept development. I suppose two groups of people are often going to see things very differently.

Jagella

vangogh
02-23-2009, 05:28 PM
Thanks for posting the assignment. It's interesting since in this case the client was in a sense your professor and the other students. They were the ones you really responded to and since they liked what you did there's a certain success in that. Had you been posting all the things you posted to the class here you would have gotten different feedback through the process and likely ended up with a different logo.

Ultimately the whole assignment was about you learning certain things and as long as you learned them to me the whole thing is a success.

What might be a good idea is to take the feedback from the class and the feedback you received here and think about all of it. Think about what people liked and what they disliked and take what you can from it. Over the years I've learned that you can't always trust all feedback. Some people will tell you you're great no matter what you do and some people will tell you you're bad no matter what to do. The sweet spot is those few who will give you honest and objective feedback.

I've also learned it's never good to get caught up in all the praise. The negative criticism is usually the more valuable. It doesn't mean you have to listen to all of it, but it's what helps you get better and grow as a designer The praise usually doesn't.

rezzy
02-23-2009, 05:41 PM
I think classes always limit expression and the ability of person. Classes create false stipulations for growth. For instance, in my classes, my teacher had a page which we were requried to use FrontPage, he instead handcoded his site using tables(this was a few years ago). The teacher gave him an F.

The class forced him to use tables and other practices which arent always the best practice. But classes help create the basis for further growth. Without the course building my interest in website design and programming, I wouldnt be here. :)

Jagella
02-23-2009, 06:00 PM
Over the years I've learned that you can't always trust all feedback. Some people will tell you you're great no matter what you do and some people will tell you you're bad no matter what to do. The sweet spot is those few who will give you honest and objective feedback.

When critiquing a work, I try to first see what's good about it and explain to the artist or designer how she made the right decisions. As for what's not good, I often start off saying: “To improve...” In both cases I try to be positive and constructive. I avoid saying whether or not I like the work unless I'm asked to or if the work has been created for the purpose of pleasing me. Otherwise, I think it's irrelevant whether or not I like it. In any case, I keep the goal of the work in mind and try to judge if it meets that goal.


I've also learned it's never good to get caught up in all the praise. The negative criticism is usually the more valuable. It doesn't mean you have to listen to all of it, but it's what helps you get better and grow as a designer The praise usually doesn't.

It's very hard to tell if people are sincere sometimes. I try to go by what people do rather than what they say when judging their true feelings.

Jagella

Blessed
02-23-2009, 06:01 PM
Jagella - I have to agree with Steve I think you would have ended up with a different one of your logos being the one that became the final version if you had been working with us instead of with your classmates and professor. Different groups of people will always give you different feedback!

vangogh
02-23-2009, 06:32 PM
Joe I agree with you about finding some good and then suggesting ways to improve. We did that in a writing class I took years ago. Oddly enough I found spending the time to honestly critique someone else's work and find ways to improve it much more valuable than the critiques I got back from others. Some people offered good points, but most were completely useless.

Yeah when someone says I like or I don't like it doesn't mean much to me unless they explain why they liked something. However if a lot of people tell me they don't like something without the explanation I try to figure out why. It leads me to critiquing my own work, which can be a valuable exercise if you're able to be honest with yourself. Not always an easy thing to do.

SteveC
02-23-2009, 06:35 PM
Good honest feedback is invaluable... however most people are afraid to give it... if you don’t like something tell someone, if you think this could be improved or that tell them... if you think it should be scrapped and a new design started, tell them...

People are afraid to give good honest feedback... because they are afraid of upsetting the individual designer... they shouldn’t be, as designers we all need to hear such things and your learn to accept that what you think is fantastic might not necessarily be seen by others that way.

This feedback issue doesn’t just apply to designers, some years ago I went in to business with a casual acquaintance... we had an investor onboard, extremely large offices with twenty odd car parking bays... we had staff the lot... yet my partner was no good... and we ended up closing the business... upon telling a friend of mine, he commented... I knew from experience that your partner was no good... why he didn’t tell me from the start is beyond me, a small warning and things could have been different... but my friend chose to keep quiet... of course this is an extreme example... but it does demonstrate that with good, honest feedback we can avoid future potential issues.

vangogh
02-23-2009, 06:51 PM
True. Most people are more worried about offending than being honest. It's much harder to do that it might seem. As someone looking for feedback finding even one or two people who you can trust to be honest is about the most valuable thing you can do.

One thing I've found about giving honest feedback is some people don't want to hear it. I've known people through the years who I knew from experience weren't going to listen so I didn't bother. I also know people who I knew wouldn't listen at that moment, but would hear what I had to say and think about it later so I would give the feedback.

On the flip side when it comes to getting feedback you have to be open to both the good and the bad. Some people selectively choose to hear only the feedback that confirms their pre-existing beliefs and ignore anything that tells them otherwise.


People are afraid to give good honest feedback... because they are afraid of upsetting the individual designer... they shouldn’t be, as designers we all need to hear such things and your learn to accept that what you think is fantastic might not necessarily be seen by others that way.

It's hard to give and hard to hear sometimes, but it's absolutely true.

Jagella
02-23-2009, 07:04 PM
Jagella - I have to agree with Steve I think you would have ended up with a different one of your logos being the one that became the final version if you had been working with us instead of with your classmates and professor. Different groups of people will always give you different feedback!

That's right, Jenn. Imagine creating a crucifix and asking for feedback from a group of Jehovah's Witnesses and a group of Catholics.

In any event, ever since I got into design work I've had to wrestle with the subjective nature of art criticism. There simply is no absolute good or bad, right or wrong. The trick is to satisfy the target audience and the client. I often wonder if people understand this principle. Maybe some people have trouble distinguishing opinion from fact.

Thanks for the feedback.

Jagella

Steve B
02-23-2009, 08:25 PM
For some reason it reminded me of a design that might work for a magician. I guess that star coming up on the right and the loopy part on the left reminded me of a rabbit ear.

I do agree with Huggy. I think a lot of designers overthink things because they want to come up with the next Nike swoosh. The Nike swoosh and other similar logos become famous mostly because of the huge dollars behind the marketing campaign. It helps to have an eye pleasing shape - but without the huge amount of money spent on the campaign it wouldn't become famous. If you were designing a logo for a hamburger stand that was just going to operate in one or two small towns - I would use a hamburger in the logo. If a multi-billionaire wanted to compete against McDonalds and was willing to spend tons of money, then by all means drop the hamburger and be as creative as you want.