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View Full Version : Spam - Are we part of the problem



nealrm
02-20-2009, 01:43 PM
OK - many business use email as a form of advertising. Some use it correctly and some abuse the privilege. Of course, none of the emails sent out by us would be considered Spam, only the other guys advertisement is really spam. Our emails are informative newsletters, and other items that truly interest the recipient.

But, how do we know? How do we as small business owner assure that we are not part of the problem?

rezzy
02-20-2009, 01:49 PM
But, how do we know? How do we as small business owner assure that we are not part of the problem?
Dont send it out.

Allow a method for people to remove their email from the listings.

Not everyone that receives an email is interested in the email. The best way to not be spam is to not send emails out.

Dan Furman
02-20-2009, 02:08 PM
I agree - do not send it.

If you have a pure opt-in list, then it's ok. But just sending to your customer list... that's a no-no in my opinion. I realize a lot of people do this, but to me, it's intrusive.

Spider
02-20-2009, 02:35 PM
It's so simple to have an opt-in form for e-mails on your website.

I use YourMailingListProvider.com (http://www.yourmailinglistprovider.com/) and they offer a simple and free service for small lists, and a more extensive paid service for large lists. It's double opt-in and easy opt-out.

I've never had a complaint about spam from my mailings and I've been doing them at irregular intervals for many years.

Oh. I lie! I had one customer complain say I was spamming him and to take him off my list immediately or he would report me to I-don't-know-where. The accusation was, of course, that he had never asked for the newsletters in the first place. Well, I don't think there is any other way to get ON the list without signing up and I didn't know how to get him OFF the list without him clicking the unsubscribe link on each newsletter or using the same subscribe form (that is all over my website) to unsubscribe. Finally, after many threats and accusations, he finally decided to unsubscribe himself and all was solved.

vangogh
02-20-2009, 04:00 PM
Even beyond the opt-in, make it a double opt-in. Make sure to get permission from people to send them information. I've given lots of people permission to send me email. Often it's because they offer a newsletter or some other informational thing that I want. Those newsletters do provide things I want and inside many will pitch a product. Sometimes I check out the product, sometimes I don't. But having given permission for the email it never gets deleted as spam.

KristineS
02-20-2009, 05:59 PM
We always have an opt in list and then we always give people a way to opt out at any time. As soon as someone asked to be removed they are. We also send e-mails twice a month, instead of bombarding people every day or every week.

Our opt out rate is quite small in proportion to our list.

Steve B
02-20-2009, 06:51 PM
I'm sure it could be argued that I am part of the problem. But, I only send to my customers and I don't have any opportunity for repeat business, so it is only informational stuff that is helpful. Of course, I remind them how much I like referrals and one time I mentioned my other business that I started recently. I've gotten several comments that it is well received and nobody has asked to be removed from the list (except when I used Constant Contact - you can read about that in another post).

Since I can't be objective about my own e-mails, I'd love to e-mail a sample to anyone that volunteers (I promise, I'll only send it to you once and remove you from the "list"). I sent one this morning as a matter of fact to all my old customers and a few others in the local dog world (vets, groomers, etc.). If you're willing to take a look, send me a PM with your e-mail address.

nealrm
02-20-2009, 07:42 PM
Steve,
It's not usually about the content of the e-mail, but whether the recipient wishes to receive the email in the first place. In my case if I were to start sending out emails with photos of the recent listings in my area, some would think they are great while others would call them spam. It would all depend on how i acquired the email address and how I verified they truly wished to receive the information. It is also possible that an email view today as legitimate would be view in 6 months as spam.

On the other hand, if your email starts out "I need your help moving 16 trillion dollars out of West Africa .....":D

Steve B
02-20-2009, 07:56 PM
I understand your point about it not being the content that is important.

I get the e-mails when they ask me for a quote because I now e-mail the quote to them. If they purchase something, then they get entered into the database and will receive about 6 or 8 e-mails during the year. No doubt, some would consider me part of the problem since I don't specifically itemize what else I might use the e-mail for if they decide to purchase a fence from me. Of course, if they ask (very rare) I tell them exactly what it will be used for.

vangogh
02-20-2009, 08:12 PM
Steve I'm now thinking of all the companies I've ever bought something from and following your logic I could be getting several thousand more spams since I have been a customer.

It's not really about whether or not your sending to people who are customers, but rather if they've agreed to receive the email. I did read the email you sent out this morning and I couldn't really see anyone complaining about it. But if you sent me something like that every morning I certainly would.

Here's a definition of spam from the Spamhouse Project (http://www.spamhaus.org/definition.html)


The word "Spam" as applied to Email means Unsolicited Bulk Email ("UBE").

Unsolicited means that the Recipient has not granted verifiable permission for the message to be sent. Bulk means that the message is sent as part of a larger collection of messages, all having substantively identical content.

There's more info on the other side of the link above, which is clear and easy to understand.

By the definition Steve, the email you sent out this morning is spam, unless each of the recipients has expressly given you permission to send them that email.

Steve B
02-20-2009, 08:26 PM
Then I guess I'm part of the problem. I'll just have to live with that.

nealrm
02-20-2009, 10:07 PM
Steve,
I really don't think you need to live with it. With the same amount of work you can turn your emails into a very useful tool. Since you are already writing about a subject you know well, why not do a blog. This would give you more exposure than the your email and is perceived better.

If you wish to use the email campaigns, make sure you only send to those that want the email. When you send out the quote, have an option to receive additional information. Make sure it is set off by default. These will decrease your database dramatically, but will increase the likelihood the emails are read.

vangogh
02-21-2009, 02:24 AM
Neal I've been suggesting a blog to Steve for quite some time, but he's resisting.

Steve it's true you could take the email you sent out this morning and turn it into a blog post. You can actually do both. Send out the email to people who opt-in to receive it and also post the content as a blog post. Actually people can subscribe to your blog via email if they want.

The advantage of the blog is it would have the potential to reach more people than your email. And it would help the site pull more search traffic overall.

Steve B
02-21-2009, 04:23 AM
I have no interest in a blog because I only sell my service locally. It won't help me any to get web traffic from anywhere outside of a 25 mile radius. I'm sure it will help my local traffic too, but I don't think the small improvement would be worth the effort. Thanks to adwords - I don't think anyone that is local and searches for a dog fence will miss my website.

I also don't have the time (or desire) to do a blog. I can probably write a meaningful article a handful of times a year. My time is better spent doing things that have local impact only. For instance, I've been sending the articles I write to humane societies, local newspapers, home owner associatins, and my current customers.

Based on what I've learned recently, I may start e-mailing them to the people that have requested a quote from me and have not yet purchased anything. This will be a great way to cultivate the prospects that are still thinking about the decision to buy a dog fence.

billbenson
02-22-2009, 10:06 AM
Something you could always consider, Steve, is adding a shopping cart to your site or on a different site. You are probably going to start getting busy soon as we go into spring, but maybe something for next year. I suppose it could cut into your core business though as people may want to install it themselves, particularly as the economy worsens.

I don't think you particularly want to mess with web stuff either, but just a thought.

Steve B
02-22-2009, 11:16 AM
Correct on your assumptions. I make the vast majority of my money on the labor - so selling directly would cut into that.

I could have another website to sell stuff that doesn't focus locally, but then the opportunity cost of running that part of the business would pull me away from other things I can be doing for the core business. Also, there are tons of people selling pet supplies - many of them cheaper than I pay wholesale. It's just not a business that interests me. I love meeting the people and their dogs - and being their hero when I solve their problems.

IT-GUY
02-22-2009, 11:21 AM
For whatever it's worth, some people just detest spam. And they perceive any emails that they get promoting (nearly) ANY product as spam.

I have to agree with those who have said that an opt-in or opt-out option be made available. And by all means, we should honor the person's wishes.

It is my opinion that IF people perceive what we send out as spam, it could actually cost us business. (Even if my business is not off the ground. I know how a lot of folks feel about "spam")

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Playing Devil's advocate here:
Example: Say I buy a book at "Joes-Books.com". OK, when I am ready for another book, I would go back there because I got a good price, it arrived quickly, and it was not damaged in shipping, and it was exactly the book I needed.

But does that mean that I want an email every week (or day) telling me of some great deal Joe is having on the novel of the week or maybe some other item he is selling? Hell NO! I don't read novels in the first place. So Joe has just lost a customer. I will go to "Jim's-Books.com" where I can opt-out and not get spam, but just good service.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I had my business up and running, I would like to keep in touch with my customers by email. I would get their permission, maybe just before I leave after a service call. If it were an oral presentation at a group meeting, I would ask for people to OPT-IN if they want a little PC tip now and then.
(Considering my business will be PC repair & possibly group tutoring.)

vangogh
02-22-2009, 11:30 AM
Good points Mr. Wizard. In a sense there are really two definitions of spam. One is the legal definition which we've been talking about here for the most part and the other is simply the perception of the person who receives the email.

Even if someone checked something when they placed an order agreeing to get your email it doesn't mean they want it (many sites force you to check that box to place an order) and while it might not legally be spam they'll still see it as spam and associate your company with sending out spam.

That's why I think a double opt-in is the best approach. Ask them to check something on your site and then make them confirm by clicking on a link in an email. People who do both are much less likely to ever associate spam with your name, particularly if you give them the option to opt-out from the list. Also the double opt-in means you're sending email to people who are genuinely interested in hearing from you. They've given you permission to send the email.

IT-GUY
02-22-2009, 11:44 AM
Vangogh,
You have my vote!:D

vangogh
02-22-2009, 11:58 AM
What am I running for?

Harold Mansfield
02-22-2009, 01:49 PM
Do emails really convert that much ? From what I have seen they seem to get about a 2-5% opening ratio, depending on how targeted the list, and if it is opt in or just a customer base.
Every product I have ever purchased online comes with some email marketing after the fact, I have just come to accept it, but rarely will that email make me buy another product...actually never.

I don't mind an email from Amazon, or iTunes every now and then, but the main offenders are web service providers. Sometimes sending as many as 7 emails a week. To me that severely takes away from the credibility of the offer and the service. Half of my daily emails on one particular address are from people selling web and SEO services....so much so that I don't trust any solicitations of that nature, nor anyone providing the service. It has turned me against an entire industry.

Is sending out frequent emails worth the toll it takes on your credibility with so many people ?
Does it signal a sign of desperation in this day and age where email is just looked at a way to spam people ?
Has the abuses of marketers made emails just junk in the eyes of consumers ?

In this day and age, I just don't see email marketing as a viable, effective way to market a product or service.

Spider
02-22-2009, 03:17 PM
I sometines think e-mail is the Killer-app that turned business-killer!

vangogh
02-22-2009, 05:53 PM
eborg I think there are people who do very well with email marketing. If you gain real permission from people to send them email and craft compelling subject lines and offers it's possible. It's also a numbers game 2% of 100,000 is still 2,000 people. And let's face it the cost to send out the email is minimal. One sale per email might be a positive ROI.

Harold Mansfield
02-23-2009, 12:51 PM
eborg I think there are people who do very well with email marketing. If you gain real permission from people to send them email and craft compelling subject lines and offers it's possible. It's also a numbers game 2% of 100,000 is still 2,000 people. And let's face it the cost to send out the email is minimal. One sale per email might be a positive ROI.

True, and I know some who do quite well emailing on behalf of other companies.
It's a tricky ledge to me...I don't provide any services, so I don't know from experience, but as one who is emailed from companies that I have ever done business with...I hate it.

But then again, how does one get the word out ? Email is the most economical way to reach a mass amount of people, but you only get one shot and it's a more than likely chance that you will offend or annoy more than half (more like 90%) of the people you send it too. Is that worth a company's image ?

I guess the same can be said for annoying commercials, but they are not as personal. For some reason, people are highly protective over their perceived privacy on free email accounts like Yahoo, and MSN.

I noticed this last year when I had to get a (day) job...people would give you their CC # over the phone, but when you asked for their email address, they got immediately scared of spam. It was one of the most amazing, and perplexing things I had ever seen, and then you find out it's not even a personal email account, it's a free one ! (What is wrong with people?)

So I guess in my real world experience actually asking for peoples email addresses, I noticed the fear that they had of getting unsolicited emails...they were more afraid of that, than giving out their Visa #.

Some even go as far as paying a monthly fee for spam protection on a free email account , (instead of just registering a domain and having their own for $10 a year)...you know the ones that send you back a captcha and then alert the account holder that you would like to contact them....no offense to anyone that used these, but that is so ridiculously over the top that it is laughable....hasn't anyone ever heard of a delete button ?

Less than tech saavy people are actually scared of emails. To them every email that they don't recognized is a phishing scam, or some magical identity theft program that will automatically transmit all the information in their 401k account, along with their children's names and the millage on their car. ( I thank the news media for that ).

So is it worth it if you get one sale, especially if you are selling high end products or services ? Probably. But do you then have any chance of ever getting the thousands of people that you have "scared", or do you just consider them collateral damage ?

vangogh
02-23-2009, 01:45 PM
I hear you. None of us wants to get unsolicited email yet at the same time many of us have responded to one.

Because of people's perceptions I think it's important to use the double opt-in to gain permission to send email. Offer people something they want in exchange for their email and permission to send them something. An ebook, a whitepaper, a free tool. Whatever. Send them the freebie through a link in an email. Does that mean they'll be receptive to your next email? No, but they've given you permission to send them the first email and probably agreed to get the second. If the second email gives them something they want you have permission to send the third.

By the time you're selling them something you're receptive email audience is a lot smaller, but that smaller group is receptive. They've given you permission along the way to keep in touch and you can probably generate a much higer conversion rate.

Harold Mansfield
02-24-2009, 04:36 PM
I can see that it definitely takes a well thought out plan, and patience to build a good list. Not just the 'ole... "Do you want this ?", "No?",move on to the next "O.K. sir how about you...Do you want it?", "O.K. Great ! That'll be $170."....That I am used to:)

vangogh
02-24-2009, 05:06 PM
Yeah. I think too many people are just lazy with the email marketing. You can tell they put little to no thought into what they wrote. It's the ones who have a comprehensive plan that seem to do well.