competition using my business name for adwords

[huggytree]

if I click on the adwords link and then go back and click back onto it again am I costing this guy $$...or does it only count as 1 click

this guy has been trying to F with me for a while now.....im considering clicking on his adwords ad for 1,000 times for a hour every so often.....im just looking for the most efficient way to do it....

everyone's going after my company name lately....changing their websites and using adwords....im getting irritated.....and Ive already talked/threatened this guy....Im planning on taking him to court this summer when I have $3,000 to waste.....but in the mean time id love to cost him a few hundred...I know the clicks are $4-$5 each

I know its childish, but oh well

any advice on how to maximize my free time/ new hobby?

[Harold Mansfield]

if I click on the adwords link and then go back and click back onto it again am I costing this guy $$...or does it only count as 1 click
Um, no. It actually counts as click fraud.


this guy has been trying to F with me for a while now.....im considering clicking on his adwords ad for 1,000 times for a hour every so often.....im just looking for the most efficient way to do it....

everyone's going after my company name lately....changing their websites and using adwords....im getting irritated.....and Ive already talked/threatened this guy....Im planning on taking him to court this summer when I have $3,000 to waste.....but in the mean time id love to cost him a few hundred...I know the clicks are $4-$5 each

I know its childish, but oh well

any advice on how to maximize my free time/ new hobby?
Yeah, don't do it. It's fraud and Google is good at determining it.

Secondly, if it's not trademarked, you don't own it. Just because you own the URL doesn't mean you can stop people from bidding on words in it.
Lastly, your name is a city, and a profession. It's the epitome of general terms. You can't claim ownership of the city name and you definitely can't claim ownership of a professional title.

If it was "Huggy's Plumbing" you may have a case.

[huggytree]

figures.....it was too easy


this guy is getting under my skin....I consider some of his tactics unethical

[Harold Mansfield]

this guy is getting under my skin....I consider some of his tactics unethical

It's not really. It's how it is on the web. The Wild West. Competition is steep and tactics are creative. Anything to get an edge up or piggy back someone elses success. And there aren't many rules against it, and if there were, no one to enforce it. Just individual companies with self created TOS's.

[huggytree]

you are correct.....but in my world ethics in business is important....and I still judge others by my rules

[Freelancier]

Yeah, don't do it. It's fraud and Google is good at determining it.

Unfortunately, Google is also good at monetizing it. They don't take it off your bill unless you complain. I one time had something like 30 clicks on one keyword from the same IP address. Google was happy to bill me for it until I complained.

[Steve B]

I've had to block several IP addresses to prevent them from costing me money on Adwords. Google does seem to be able to control it to a degree, but they certainly don't have the motivation to be too efficient at it.

I hired VanGogh to send me a spreadsheet of all the IP addresses that were hitting my site via Google (I think specifically via Adwords). Then I decided if the pattern looked like it was just being done to cost me money and I blocked them.

[Steve B]

My post above is actually advice for your competitors to prevent you from costing you money.

I probably do what you wouldn't agree with. Via Adwords, I bid on the names of my competitors so I will be found if someone is looking for one on them. In my industry, one of the competitors somehow got the generic name for what we do trademarked, so if it wasn't for Adwords my business would suffer incredibly.

[Freelancier]

I bid on the names of my competitors so I will be found if someone is looking for one on them.

Happens all the time. Doesn't matter if someone agrees with it... if it gets you business, who cares? HOWEVER, be aware that they may not let you use trademarked names (and that sometimes includes big company names) in your ads if the trademarking company complains to Google. I use the name of my largest competitor's product in my ads, just because we're an alternative. And it works, but sometimes it costs us money because we get clicks for support for the other company's product.

[bizinchina]

I think you are wasting too much energy on some one else's business. I would try to make your site the best it can be so that your competitions site looks poor in comparison. Try more engaging content like videos so your clients feel more comfortable doing business with you over your competition. I am sure there are other keywords out their that you haven't even tried to rank or pay for maybe focus your energy on that instead of wasting it on something that you ca't really control.

[nealrm]

Your name is a city and a profession. Nothing unethical about another plumber aiming advertising at that city. Taking him to court to stop him will likely only result in you spending money and the judge throwing it out. It may even result in a frivolous lawsuit judgement against you.

As for clicking on his ad, what goes around comes around. If you do that expect others to do similar things to you.

[huggytree]

I know I cant take him to court for Adwords

but I think I have a grey area case against his website.....when you click on it it doesn't say who he is...it says my company name and then the word SERVICE......he's gotten complaints from others too........a lawsuit would cost me $3000 to file and cost him $3000ish to fight back.....if and when I decide to do this I know any businessman would just change the home page to say his actual business name....I have had customers confused by this...they are trying to find me and click on him.....how many aren't finding me?

[Freelancier]

when you click on it it doesn't say who he is...it says my company name and then the word SERVICE

And now you understand why some companies will pay big money to have a business name they can trademark. Your city + type of service can't be defended against in court, so don't bother with that. Either learn to live with it or get a better business name... one that contains a unique combination of names that can be trademarked.

Microsoft couldn't trademark the name "Windows", but they could trademark "Microsoft Windows".

[tallen]

Most states require that anyone who wants to do business under a name that is not their own personal name must register that name with the State's Secretary of State (or some such), whether it is just a "DBA" or a full-fledged legal entity (LLC, Corporation....). One reason why states require registration of business names is so that they can prevent people from using too-similar names in order that customers don't get confused. Before filing a lawsuit, I would check with your State's Secretary of State to see if they have allowed this other guy to use the name he is using. If he never registered the name with them, then you might have a good case to get him to cease and desist. (Note that we are talking about legal business names, not necessarily internet domain names, although it certainly does seem that this guy is using [yourcityname] Plumbing Service as his business name and not just as his website domain name....)

[huggytree]

I DO own the trademark for my business name

100% chance he's trying to pretend to be me and is effecting my customers

its unethical and when I called him about it he admitted others are calling him and threatening him too....he said he'd change it eventually, but it costs too much in web design time....(I should send him $200, since he cant afford it)

he has been sending me customers when he's too busy to try to make things better between us.....all of them have been horrible/throw away customers....they waste my time on the phone for jobs I don't want. (jobs from hell and customers from hell)

[Freelancier]

If you have a registered trademark name that he's using, then you should just get an attorney to send him a letter threatening to basically own him and asking for $25,000 and compliance to make the problem go away. That usually does the trick.

[JohnF]

Bidding on the names of your competitors is smart, as long as you don't overpay, and I see nothing unethical about it. No different from TV ads that go after a competitor.

Clicking on his ads over and over is click fraud. Don't do it. And if this is "your new hobby," that's time you should be spending building yourself up, not tearing others down.

[trunker]

I would call him and ask him to stop. A lot of times people will back off if you confront them about it. You could also send a letter of demand. Don't bother getting a lawyer to write one just use a template. If he is local file in small claims and sue for the max which is normally 5 thousand. The idea is to scare him out of doing this.

[Freelancier]

Don't bother getting a lawyer to write one just use a template.

The reason he SHOULD use a lawyer in this case is that he's already talked to the guy and the guy didn't do anything. Now you have to act like you're serious and willing to spend money to hurt him and his business because he's hurting you and your business.

Used to be a pain to send a letter to someone... now anyone with a computer and printer can do it, so it doesn't have the same impact. But if it gets sent from an attorney who explains what the next step is going to cost the recipient, he's more likely to take action, because the costs of inaction could be higher than the costs of action.

Second, if you own a trademark and don't take all necessary steps to protect it, then you don't really get to claim the trademark when it comes to a court case later. You have to defend your property or you can't later expect the court to defend it for you.

[trunker]

The reason he SHOULD use a lawyer in this case is that he's already talked to the guy and the guy didn't do anything. Now you have to act like you're serious and willing to spend money to hurt him and his business because he's hurting you and your business.

Used to be a pain to send a letter to someone... now anyone with a computer and printer can do it, so it doesn't have the same impact. But if it gets sent from an attorney who explains what the next step is going to cost the recipient, he's more likely to take action, because the costs of inaction could be higher than the costs of action.

Second, if you own a trademark and don't take all necessary steps to protect it, then you don't really get to claim the trademark when it comes to a court case later. You have to defend your property or you can't later expect the court to defend it for you.

I agree. I failed to read the entire thread.

[nealrm]

I know I cant take him to court for Adwords

but I think I have a grey area case against his website.....when you click on it it doesn't say who he is...it says my company name and then the word SERVICE......he's gotten complaints from others too........a lawsuit would cost me $3000 to file and cost him $3000ish to fight back.....if and when I decide to do this I know any businessman would just change the home page to say his actual business name....I have had customers confused by this...they are trying to find me and click on him.....how many aren't finding me?

You may think it is a grey area, but it is not. I looked at his site, there is nothing wrong with it. One of the down sides of using a city+service as your company name is that anyone offering that service in that area can legally use it.

[nealrm]

I DO own the trademark for my business name

100% chance he's trying to pretend to be me and is effecting my customers

its unethical and when I called him about it he admitted others are calling him and threatening him too....he said he'd change it eventually, but it costs too much in web design time....(I should send him $200, since he cant afford it)

he has been sending me customers when he's too busy to try to make things better between us.....all of them have been horrible/throw away customers....they waste my time on the phone for jobs I don't want. (jobs from hell and customers from hell)

"Waukesha Plumbing" doesn't show when you do a trademark search. Is it registered?

[Harold Mansfield]

Just about everyone who is online and actively trying to rank or get leverage goes through this. Competition is steep online and none of us are the only game in town.

It's the same with WordPress service providers. It says plain as day in the WordPress trademark info that you MAY NOT use "WordPress" in your company name, or website URL's, and yet people still do it. One of them ranked above me for a coveted search result....right between me and a WordPress.org page. It used to bother me because he is breaking the rules, but I decided to just get better than him and how he's on the second page and I'm right after WordPress.org.

Bottom line is, if you are being legally wronged then yes go after him. But if he's just being smart on what he's bidding on and not infringing on you there's really nothing you can do about it. Just get better and beat him at his own game.

[VeritasCustom]

I run a website called MenifeeShirts.com because I do business in the city of Menifee. There are going to be other screen printers using this in adwords, it's just how it is. Having a city plus a service in your name you should expect this.

[johnkaster]

everyone's going after my company name lately....changing their websites and using adwords....im getting irritated.....and Ive already talked/threatened this guy....Im planning on taking him to court this summer when I have $3,000 to waste.....but in the mean time id love to cost him a few hundred...I know the clicks are $4-$5 each
make your business with trade mark. Google ad posting policy won't allow your brand name in AD anyway. This way he can not post your brand name in AD.

[huggytree]

"Waukesha Plumbing" doesn't show when you do a trademark search. Is it registered?

I own the trademark in WI...maybe you did a USA search

Ive had 2 customers call him first this week alone.....im definitely going to move on it with a lawyer this summer....all I want is his actual business name inside his website

[Freelancier]

This summer? So you really don't want to protect your property (this "state-only trademark"), huh?

You either move to protect your property when it's threatened or you lose the right to protect it. So, call the lawyer Monday.

[huggytree]

This summer? So you really don't want to protect your property (this "state-only trademark"), huh?

You either move to protect your property when it's threatened or you lose the right to protect it. So, call the lawyer Monday.

I called 2 lawyers last summer.....one never returned my call and the other blew me off....I know it isn't much of a case....so I did make an attempt to move on it...then I got busy and ignored it......I have the $$ to do it now, but prefer to wait until I have a large cash reserve where $3,000 spent doesn't mean anything....ill do it in a few months.

its not really about the adwords....its about him making it difficult for my customers to know if its me or him.....I should start asking the customers who called him first to give me a letter saying they couldn't distinguish between us easily.....one is a steady customer, so I could get that letter w/ just a phone call

[Freelancier]

I called 2 lawyers last summer.....one never returned my call and the other blew me off....I know it isn't much of a case....

this tells me a few things:

Your "trademark" isn't worth what you paid for it. Personally, I had never even heard of a state-based trademark, so it seems suspicious.

You need a better class of lawyer. And all you want them to do is write a letter for you. So it shouldn't cost more than about $500.

If it's not important enough for you to pursue legally, then why did you need us to advise you on it? What did you hope we would tell you?

[Harold Mansfield]

its not really about the adwords....its about him making it difficult for my customers to know if its me or him.....I should start asking the customers who called him first to give me a letter saying they couldn't distinguish between us easily.....one is a steady customer, so I could get that letter w/ just a phone call

Or, you could make your brand recognition and marketing so great that there would never be any confusion. What you are dwelling on is sour grapes in a world wide web that is not fair, and does not operate like the physical, local, brick and mortar world.

Instead of bitching about this guy bidding on the same terms and phrases as you, you should be looking to distinguish yourself from him in a way that customers will not confuse.

You are going to spend $3k suing a guy over something that you don't even own and can't claim copyright or trademark to, instead of spending that $3k on better branding and marketing? Maybe even ads.

One of the things I've noticed you doing over the last few months is emulating other plumbers who have more presence than you. Nothing wrong with emulating success, but copying verbatim pretty much just makes you just blend in. Over the last couple of years in talking to you about this site, your service area, and your competitors...you guys all look the same. You act the same. None of your websites are anything special because you all seem to have done exactly what the other person did.

If you want to stand out from your competition, you can't do exactly what they do. You have to be better. That doesn't mean you have to spend more money. It means you need to know more than they do, and execute better.

[nealrm]

You may want to read this, especially the part that states in bold "Registration of a mark does not give exclusive rights to that mark."

http://www.wdfi.org/Notary_Public_and_Trademarks/pdf/TrademarkInfoR11-2012.pdf

That may explain why the lawyers didn't jump at the case.

[huggytree]

Harold: I always copy someone more successful than me...im not overly original and I always look for a good idea and copy it...you are correct that the $3,000 would be better off spent on marketing....my website already is significantly better than the guy im talking about............I have no idea how to make plumbing 'different'....the most different company I know calls themselves 'the smell good plumber' and their advertising is all about how their workers smell good.......cant get much more different than that and they are successful....they are the website I initially copied (which they changed 1 week later)

Nealrm: I talked with a lawyer yesterday...$500 for a threat letter and $450 an hour for a lawyer to work on my case...they said I DO have a chance to win, but not a good chance....


the thing stopping me right now is the other guy is friendly with me....he recently sent a customer to me who was looking for ME......and he is sending me work when he cant handle it (even though its worthless customers)....still it shows he's not a enemy.......even though I consider him to be one.........if I start the lawsuit and fail to get him to flinch I will lose his friendly attitude and he will take those customers as his own....I will lose $3,000 + a job or 2 a year

[Harold Mansfield]

Harold: I always copy someone more successful than me...im not overly original and I always look for a good idea and copy it...you are correct that the $3,000 would be better off spent on marketing....my website already is significantly better than the guy im talking about............I have no idea how to make plumbing 'different'....the most different company I know calls themselves 'the smell good plumber' and their advertising is all about how their workers smell good.......cant get much more different than that and they are successful....they are the website I initially copied (which they changed 1 week later)

I'm not talking about changing the profession, just making sure that your presentation stands out. Not necessarily gimmicks. I would think for the clientele that you want to target, professionalism would be the key. You have to ask yourself, does your website make you look like the kind of plumber who works on upscale homes?

About a year ago, I showed you the website of a contractor that I did to give you some ideas.

I taught them a few things, and they've improved on what they learned and kept it going. Granted, they've been in business 20+ years, however from what they tell me their online inquiries have improved significantly.

They aren't smarter than you. Nor any more tech savvy than you are. The difference is that they wanted to learn about the online marketing and presentation of their business. They spent where they needed to, and continue to do so, but they control what they can and they keep at it, getting better along the way.

They wanted to control the messaging and presentation of their company online, so they learned what they needed to do, and how to create the messaging and presentation that they wanted to show potential customers, and it's paying off.

If you don't know how to create the branding and presentation that you want, then consult with someone who does. But you keep hiring webmasters, and are expecting them to be your marketing firm. That's doesn't work. Webmasters are technical. Very few understand or care about marketing and branding a business.

If you don't want to hire a marketing company, at least find a website of a contractor that you like and that looks "upscale" and professional and say to yourself "I want to look like that". At least it's a place to start emulating. And open your horizons to more than just your immediate local area. It's a big world out there with a lot of ideas.

[huggytree]

im considering making a website using the other guys name and just putting SERVICES at the end of it....same as what he's doing to me....sure he can sue me.....but once again it comes back to costing him money...

lawyer called today......they had a long discussion and all the big guys there agreed that a threat letter would most likely work....so I agreed to it.....it will get me and him talking again.....and if he wont change it its going to cost him thousands in legal fees to defend himself...which I don't see a small time guy(like me) doing...........im even going to offer to pay $200 towards his website designer to cover the change

if I go the new website idea it would only cost me a few hundred....that would really drive the point home...I need to discuss that idea with the lawyers ahead of time....I may even apply for a DBA under the name

[nealrm]

Given that his company name is his name, then he could sue you and very like win. You would not only be out your legal fee, but legal plus damages, plus more. Are you also going to go after heidenpplumbing, Schoenwalder plumbing and all the others that use Waukesha & Plumbing on their web pages ad advertisements??? I could also damage you case and give him grounds to countersue for a frivolous lawsuit.

It is possible that a threatening letter will work. He might also tell you to go pound sand (I would).

[huggytree]

Given that his company name is his name, then he could sue you and very like win. You would not only be out your legal fee, but legal plus damages, plus more. Are you also going to go after heidenpplumbing, Schoenwalder plumbing and all the others that use Waukesha & Plumbing on their web pages ad advertisements??? I could also damage you case and give him grounds to countersue for a frivolous lawsuit.

It is possible that a threatening letter will work. He might also tell you to go pound sand (I would).



those other 2 plumbing companies aren't pretending to be me...when you click on their websites it says who they are

that's the difference and why im so hyper over this issue

[huggytree]

Got my legal threat letter today.....found out that in WI you cant sell services w/o saying who you are.....so I have another angle to go after him....this one I will win.....it may cost me $5k to do it, but I can force him to say who he is on his website....this may also help my case with him using my name.

I was on the fence, but now after talking with the lawyer today im in a position where I cant lose....that is if im willing to back it up with $$

I also found more people he's messing with......so I may ask them to split the legal costs and add them to the lawsuit.....the guy I found yesterday has it real bad....he doesn't have a website and this other guy is basically HIM on the internet...anyone looking for him will find this other guy.......he isn't putting the word services behind his name either...he's putting the word Village in front of it instead.

[webking]

If you contact his hosting and domain registrar they might help you and if you show them legal notice and tell them whole story then chances are high that domain registrar may block his domain.
You never know what may works for you so its worth trying.

[nealrm]

You can find his name and contact information under the "click for information" button. Not sure how WI stated you need to provide that information.

[huggytree]

the Legal letter worked......the competitor now says who he is at the top of his websites.....whooopeee

it cost me $500 for the lawyer, but saved me thousands in legal fees and most likely thousands in lost business (maybe 10's of thousands over years)

this has been one of the most positive weeks in business ive had in a long time.

[Travis Van Slooten]

Can I ask how your competitor was pretending to be you? Was he literally saying on his website that he was you? When I go to his website now, it says the domain is owned by: (and then he has his business name). What was on his website before this change?

And can I ask what the letter from the lawyer said? Was it overly threatening (i.e. If you don't make the change we'll be taking to you court), or was it more of a "gentle request" on a the lawyer's letterhead?

Travis

[chrismarklee]

I understand getting upset at a competitor. Why not focus on SEO rather than ads more. Also focus on Facebook marketing. Just an idea

[Dan Furman]

I still fail to see how using "<city name> plumbing" - especially online where that's a choice keyphrase - is wrong. It's perfectly valid for adwords, site headlines, etc.

You got lucky that he stopped Huggy. I would have called the bluff (and that's all it was.)

Now, if he said on his homepage "call <city name> plumbing at xxx.xxx.xxxx" THEN it's wrong. Was he doing that?