what should i expect to pay monthly for SEO ?

[huggytree]

Now that the website is finally done im moving into the next phase and hiring someone for SEO

the designer is giving me 1 month free and admits to not knowing enough(even though when I hired him for the website he said he knew) he is asking for free advice from a friend of his who is a SEO expert

So it looks like it may be better to hire someone who specializes in it

Woz gave me a lead on one and im in the process of vetting him

how much should I expect to pay for SEO?

when I was deciding on which web designer to go with I was given estimates of $300-800 a month

right now im getting a measly 1-2% of my sales from my website...my goal is 20% (my 2013 gross is $525,000 and internet sales for 2013 are a whopping $8,500(in 2012 they were $16,000 with the exact same website)

if I can make $100,000 a year extra I have no issues with paying $800 a month for SEO......id rather pay more to get more

what do I need to know to make my decision on who to hire?

[Wozcreative]

Price doesn't matter how much you pay. What matters is what they are offering.

You hired your developer on the basis that he knows SEO. The site is missing basic On-Site SEO features. Don't hire anyone on the basis that you want to pay more of that they can promise you false claims like getting you to #1 on google or promising you a % in sales calls. You need someone that will educate you on it properly.

Learn about

• On-site SEO
• Off-site SEO
• Social Media Management (Aslo counts as SEO)

All 3 of these are different specialties.. and they all branch out even more if you want better results. Your developer ignored the on-site SEO so now you will have to hire someone to add all that info in.. and teach you how to do it yourself in the future whenever you update the site.


So again.. the question is not about how much should you pay (you did this with your website too, remember?), it is what can these guys offer me?

Here are some fantastic questions from a reputable blog that have examples of questions to ask SEO experts: 12 Questions to Ask Before Hiring an SEO Expert (http://mashable.com/2013/10/22/seo-hiring-questions/)

[billbenson]

In addition to what Waz just said, SEO is something that should be done in conjunction with your website. They really aren't two separate things. Not trying to bust your hump here Huggy, but you need to think in terms of what can I get from my website or online marketing. Just think of online as another category of marketing which you need to know going into the future.

[huggytree]

I was given a quote for $750 a month from Woz's friend.....ouch!

that was for 12 keywords

very hard to swallow

I asked what $450 a month will get me?

they also focused heavily on Milwaukee which id rather skip....I think the competition for Milwaukee is HUGE and 6-7 keywords were for Milwaukee...so im hoping by going after the suburbs around Milwaukee will be less costly

is $9,000 a year too much or am I being cheap?

sure if I could get $90,000 of business for $9,000 id be thrilled.....but if I only get $20,000 I will be upset.....and of course no one can guarantee anything...so im just rolling the dice

$750 puts them in line with my original web designer that wanted $15,000 to build a website and $8,00 a month for SEO

[Wozcreative]

I was given a quote for $750 a month from Woz's friend.....ouch!

that was for 12 keywords

very hard to swallow

I asked what $450 a month will get me?

they also focused heavily on Milwaukee which id rather skip....I think the competition for Milwaukee is HUGE and 6-7 keywords were for Milwaukee...so im hoping by going after the suburbs around Milwaukee will be less costly

is $9,000 a year too much or am I being cheap?

sure if I could get $90,000 of business for $9,000 id be thrilled.....but if I only get $20,000 I will be upset.....and of course no one can guarantee anything...so im just rolling the dice

$750 puts them in line with my original web designer that wanted $15,000 to build a website and $8,00 a month for SEO

Interesting.. they were a company that a good friend of mine used/referred me to.. It's interesting they are basing success off of keywords. Which is the wrong way of going about it for 2014.

You are not being cheap.. you just don't know what internet marketing and SEO is and expecting it to be a bandaid for more money which doesn't really work that way. SEO is like building a sandcastle close to the water, sometimes you will get lucky and the water won't wash it away.. other times you have to re-work your strategy and build new walls.

The problem is to find someone who knows and can explain to what they will do and how they will do it and what cannot be done or isn't reasonable. Keywords is an older strategy.. in my opinion you just need someone who is an expert at google pay per clicks ads.

[huggytree]

I just got an email from the original $15k website builder I considered going with.....basically ripping on my new website

I asked them to quote me for SEO

their price was similar and I have no doubts they know what they are doing....they are very successful...I hear their customers radio ads daily (I know who their existing customers are)...very impressive....

I still am wondering if I need 15 websites...one for each city....that strategy sure worked for a competitor who did it....he's #1 for almost every city now...and his website sucks...his designer was my 3rd bid for the website project...he was $9k and I didn't choose him because I didn't like the strategy of 15 websites.....im starting to wonder if that would have been the cheaper and better way to go originally

[huggytree]

Interesting.. they were a company that a good friend of mine used/referred me to.. It's interesting they are basing success off of keywords. Which is the wrong way of going about it for 2014.

You are not being cheap.. you just don't know what internet marketing and SEO is and expecting it to be a bandaid for more money which doesn't really work that way. SEO is like building a sandcastle close to the water, sometimes you will get lucky and the water won't wash it away.. other times you have to re-work your strategy and build new walls.

The problem is to find someone who knows and can explain to what they will do and how they will do it and what cannot be done or isn't reasonable. Keywords is an older strategy.. in my opinion you just need someone who is an expert at google pay per clicks ads.


I asked them if the keywords was their only strategy and they said its just part of it

i am starting to accept $750 a month as a normal price........i am going to have pretty high expectations for that pricing.....they are pretty much promising page 1 within 12 months or less for the 13 keywords and then were going to move onto other keywords

i asked for 3 references..

thanks for your help everyone!

[Harold Mansfield]

In all honesty, I'd have someone do a one time SEO overhaul to insure that your onsite SEO is all that it could be, make sure that your Google and Linked In profiles are dialed in, insure that you are providing people with enough information to make a decision and entice them to contact you, and that there is a clear call to action on your site that is easy to use.

Once that is done... for you and your business....I'd suggest investigating Google and other online ads. I think a well crafted and consistent ad campaign targeting the markets and demographic that you want will give you better results than spending that same money on SEO and hoping for the best.

You could blow thousands before you realize whoever you hire is not going to get you any results or are taking shortcuts that Google now frowns on. That's money that you could have spent on ads.

Ads are immediately measurable and you can make adjustments on the fly that go into effect immediately. SEO is a long term strategy and it doesn't seem like you have the time to wait. $750 a month in online ads should get you a lot of visibility in your target markets, and since you only pay per click, you can see immediately what is working or not..and with a little help can figure out why and make adjustments.

For best results you may want to build a one page landing page on your site that is designed specifically for your ad.

Yes, you'll have to learn about ads and how to spend wisely, however, I think once you get it down you will be much happier with the results and you will learn how to handle at least one very important aspect of your own web marketing that you can control yourself.

I now get 80% of my business from my website and other online avenues, but it took me 3 years to get it that way with the last year being the most significant since I had learned from my previous mistakes and implemented a new strategy. That's the thing about SEO...it's time consuming, takes a while to figure out what works for you based on competition, and results vary.

Ads are immediately measurable, have definite placement depending on how you spend and what the competition is, and go into effect as soon as you place them.

Something else to consider....no amount of SEO in the world can top Google's paid ad spots at the top of the page. Those places will ALWAYS show first.

In the meantime while your money is working for you, you can learn SEO basics to do yourself.

If I had that budget to spend for a year, that's the way I'd do it.

[CameronThomas12]

Hi, my name is Cameron Thomas, I graduated from Full Sail University for Internet Marketing, and I have been doing PPC since 2012. (I've also had SEO Internships) PPC is SEO's cousin. Let me tell you this-none of these people here telling you what to do are giving you good answers. Why? They HAVEN'T SEEN YOUR WEBSITE. SEO is very involved and the only way you could get a good solution is if someone saw your website. This situation is very close to a situation where you ask: " How much is it going to be to fix my car?", and everyone starts giving you prices and advice when they haven't even SEEN your car. How about posting your website up here. On page optimization for SEO might work,(might not) but truthfully, SEO depends on many factors at the same. First post your website here so people could get a better idea of whether SEO or PPC would be the better choice. $9000 a year? Uh..it depends on the website, and the situation. You probably might need that much.Probably. What is your website address?

[Patrysha]

Actually Cameron. Seeing as you only have three posts here you wouldn't know this but WE HAVE ALL SEEN HIS WEBSITE!!! MANY MANY TIMES over the years. Because we have all been here for much longer than the one day you have.

[CameronThomas12]

I was wrong about the people not seeing his website , but my general attitude is that he deserves more detailed advice. I know that this is important, and I'd like to give him the best advice possible-because things like this are very sensitive. There are people that overcharge for SEO, and people who don't know what they are doing when it comes to SEO, and will waste your time. I think more detailed advice is needed for his situation, such as:

What kinds of keywords does he want to rank for?
What kinds of questions to ask the SEO to see what he knows?
Does he know how to see good keywords for himself?

etc.


I might have not seen it, but I'd like to myself.

[Wozcreative]

I was wrong about the people not seeing his website , but my general attitude is that he deserves more detailed advice. I know that this is important, and I'd like to give him the best advice possible-because things like this are very sensitive. There are people that overcharge for SEO, and people who don't know what they are doing when it comes to SEO, and will waste your time. I think more detailed advice is needed for his situation, such as:

What kinds of keywords does he want to rank for?
What kinds of questions to ask the SEO to see what he knows?
Does he know how to see good keywords for himself?

etc.


I might have not seen it, but I'd like to myself.

If you don't see the information provided for him, or questions that need to be asked not being asked.. why not just do that yourself instead of dismissing everyone else's advice?

[cbscreative]

Cameron, you need a lesson in forum etiquette. Take note of the join dates of most of the people posting here. We've known huggy (virtually) for over 5 years and actually longer since this forum spun off another one a lot of us were active on before new owners trashed it (huggy, Harold, Patrysha, myself, and many others were members of the other forum for years before this one needed to be started). When we are having a discussion here like this we know what we're talking about.

All new members are gladly welcomed; that's even what we're her for; to be the best small biz forum on the web. But to barge in with presumptuous posts like yours is not going to go over well. It's not the others here who are "not giving good answers," it's you. Feel free to express your opinion even if it doesn't agree with ours but accusing us of not knowing what we're talking about on your first day here is not a good strategy.

[huggytree]

Here's the plan from the SEO guy I want to go with....I talked for 30 minutes with him last night and he's able to explain things very well....any criticisms on his plan?

he wants to move me from my old web guys server to HIS server...I most likely wont do that part.

I will most likely sign with him tomorrow night





Thanks for the phone call. As promised here is a rough outline of what we'd for you, and the costs involved. Yes, Milwaukee is a possibility, we just need to identify a few top competitors and start reverse engineering their rank basically.

$300/Per Month x 6 Months (proposed). If you want to move it onto our dedicated server for hosting then that would be an additional $247/setup cost and renewable annually at the same amount ($247). You would have your own Cpanel account and have the benefit of being with a larger service provider with a track record of reliability.

Month 1

- identify target service areas and services
- assess local competition (backlinks/citations)
- rewrite website title tags for every page.
- rewrite website links (eg /water-heaters/ --->/waukesha-water-heater-replacement-repair-installations/)
- create 301 redirect file pointing old links to new.
- thicken up content on service area pages.
- setup gravity forms plugin (contact form on every page).
- create review-us page and link with social profiles.
- weekly rank reports (4)
- monthly citation report (1)

Month 2

- make decisions based on weekly reports/citation reports
- acquire any citations competitors have that you don't ($3.00 each)
- create 3 new pages/or blog posts for target service/areas
- weekly rank reports (4)
- monthly citation report (1)

Month 3

- make decisions based on weekly reports/citation reports
- acquire any citations competitors have that you don't ($3.00 each)
- create 3 new pages/or blog posts for target service/areas
- weekly rank reports (4)
- monthly citation report (1)

Month 4

- make decisions based on weekly reports/citation reports
- acquire any citations competitors have that you don't ($3.00 each)
- create 3 new pages/or blog posts for target service/areas
- weekly rank reports (4)
- monthly citation report (1)

Month 5

- make decisions based on weekly reports/citation reports
- acquire any citations competitors have that you don't ($3.00 each)
- create 3 new pages/or blog posts for target service/areas
- weekly rank reports (4)
- monthly citation report (1)

Month 6

- make decisions based on weekly reports/citation reports
- acquire any citations competitors have that you don't ($3.00 each)
- create 3 new pages/or blog posts for target service/areas
- weekly rank reports (4)
- monthly citation report (1)
- 6 month review/consultation

[Wozcreative]

I'll wait for what others will say. I Rolled my eyes at the first month. Some of it I told you the first developer should have done (IE re-writing the links) and title tags. That's web dev 101 and super easy (you can do yourself). Heck I will even show you myself with a single screenshot.

I also roll my eyes at the "dedicated server" part. You don't need that. You're not running an online store. Simple $80 account would do with a well known safe server.

I am also SUPER confused at the "contact forms on every page". What the heck? They should be re-evaluating the content and making decisions on call to actions and not spamming the site with contact forms!

What I'd do at this stage is ask them to send you a sample of what a "weekly rank report" looks like and a "monthly citation report". That way you can actually see what the heck you will be seeing and "evaluating" at the end of each month. If you can't understand it, theres no point. How will you know if it's working?


Whatever man! These "SEO" companies are still proving to be a bunch of Poo poo! I can't WAIT to see what the others would say to the above. I'm always looking to learn and if they can prove me wrong... then I'd love that too!

[huggytree]

they are also going to build me a mobile site..i assume that's something for smart phones?

and get rid of the wow slider type

my old developer wasn't very responsive...I just wanted to get things done and move on....the new guy im hiring IS responsive

he is not charging me much for SEO....and he's telling me what he's going to do....I like that....Woz the guy you recommended wanted $750 and never did really explain what im getting for that $750......

this guy is putting a heavy emphasis on me getting reviews on bing and other sites....

I also like the fact that he only goes 6 months out...that tells me in 6 months I should have proof of what he's doing....the way I see it he's giving himself 6 months to prove he's working for me.....while others are vague on how long things may take....

I like the guy too....hey Woz---he's Canadian like You!

his business is geared only for sub contractors...so he has experience with my field..i like that too...you'd think there would be an edge there

[Wozcreative]

they are also going to build me a mobile site..i assume that's something for smart phones?

and get rid of the wow slider type

my old developer wasn't very responsive...I just wanted to get things done and move on....the new guy im hiring IS responsive

he is not charging me much for SEO....and he's telling me what he's going to do....I like that....Woz the guy you recommended wanted $750 and never did really explain what im getting for that $750......

this guy is putting a heavy emphasis on me getting reviews on bing and other sites....

I also like the fact that he only goes 6 months out...that tells me in 6 months I should have proof of what he's doing....the way I see it he's giving himself 6 months to prove he's working for me.....while others are vague on how long things may take....

I like the guy too....hey Woz---he's Canadian like You!

his business is geared only for sub contractors...so he has experience with my field..i like that too...you'd think there would be an edge there

Well the way you put it that makes sense to me. Yea it's strange the developer also didn't make a mobile friendly site.
Either way, as long as he's explaining things to you and you understand it and you're happy with it then go for it.

I guess it's just basic stuff that I already include in my websites when building them and can't justify paying people to do it when it's really simple stuff, but since your developer dropped the ball on it, it makes sense to get them to fix it up and add what is missing.

[MyITGuy]

he wants to move me from my old web guys server to HIS server...I most likely wont do that part. Glad to see you keeping things seperated...however you should look at moving your website somewhere. Your site right now is slow which will impact your google ranking (Could be the server, or could use some wordpress cache/optimization)


If you want to move it onto our dedicated server for hosting then that would be an additional $247/setup cost and renewable annually at the same amount ($247). You would have your own Cpanel account and have the benefit of being with a larger service provider with a track record of reliability.

Just to be clear, you are not getting a dedicated server. You will be using a dedicated server that they rent from another provider and share among all their clients...so likely no better than where your currently at.

Additionally, as we've mentioned/questioned before...what are you getting for that $20/month that goes above and beyond the other providers who offer web hosting for $3-5/month?

As far as the actual work goes...its BS. Month 1 is what your web developer should be doing to complete the work. Months 2 through 6 basically consists of writing 3 blogs and purchasing some google Ads (Assuming this is what citations means?). Definitely not worth $1800 in my opinion...

[huggytree]

Glad to see you keeping things seperated...however you should look at moving your website somewhere. Your site right now is slow which will impact your google ranking (Could be the server, or could use some wordpress cache/optimization)



Just to be clear, you are not getting a dedicated server. You will be using a dedicated server that they rent from another provider and share among all their clients...so likely no better than where your currently at.

Additionally, as we've mentioned/questioned before...what are you getting for that $20/month that goes above and beyond the other providers who offer web hosting for $3-5/month?

As far as the actual work goes...its BS. Month 1 is what your web developer should be doing to complete the work. Months 2 through 6 basically consists of writing 3 blogs and purchasing some google Ads (Assuming this is what citations means?). Definitely not worth $1800 in my opinion...

what should he be doing?

every single guy tells me something different....I have a similar post on a contractor forum and I hear different things from different people....everyone seems to have a different way to get to be #1...I don't want to take a college course...I just want to hire someone..

[Wozcreative]

in my opinion you need:

1) Get your on-site SEO up to par (fix what the developer dropped the ball on).. it is generally about 5 hours of work.
2) Hire someone specifically for Adwords and get them to teach you how to do it yourself. You had a bad first experience but i think it is because you came in blindly (and your old site was really bad).
3) Move the site so you can control it and hire anyone you want at any time. Do not do retainers, that's a waste of $.


Theres not a lot of people who will do it though because they want to sell you a big poo poo of an SEO package. To get a site that looks good (like yours), it is a quick job. You just need to find someone who knows on-site seo and will take on a small one time job like that.

[huggytree]

Woz----the guy you referred me to is the other one im considering...I sent him the info and asked what more he will be doing for $750 vs this guys $300

he is vague, so this will make him be precise.....he also claims of a great track record and has given me references( I haven't called them yet)...I don't mind spending $750 a month if I can get double the outcome.......

I continue to play w/ adwords myself...I just blew $50 last week w/o a valid call from it....I think people click me looking for parts...its shocking how many adwords clicks I get w/o any calls from it....I ask every actual customer in detail how they found me....rarely does adwords do anything....it has worked a few times in my hometown and I noticed it DID help me move up on my normal listing in my hometown.....but otherwise I don't think it works well...its just too expensive for Plumbers...$3 a hit....adds up quick with window shoppers

[Joeyhenderson8610]

I would hire an SEO firm. I would pay about $300 a month for 50 backlinks.

[Harold Mansfield]

I already gave you my advice. Get an overhaul to insure your site is dialed in and ready to receive inquiries, and your on site SEO is as best as it could be for what you are targeting. And then spend your money on web ads. Period.

You can learn more about SEO as you go. Ads target your audience immediately and are immediately measurable. SEO alone could take a year or more for your site to start attracting the targeted traffic you are looking for right now. Or it may not happen at all.

The thing is, I see people going from SEO company to SEO company and never get the results that they are looking for. In all of that wasted time and money, they could have had ads running and working for them, while learning a little bit more about SEO along the way that they could have done themselves.

I'm not saying paying for SEO services is a rip off. SEO is neccessary. But when given the choice of where my money is going to be most effective, and not knowing anything about SEO or how to choose someone reputable and effective....Google ads now beats a 6+ month SEO gamble that costs the same or more... any way you slice it.

And do not pay for back links. If the people or service you are buying links from are ever dinged by Google ( which Google is actively searching for people who sell links), then you get dinged too. And if that happens it will take you forever to get out of the sandbox and start getting ranked again.

[MyITGuy]

I'm not saying paying for SEO services is a rip off. SEO is neccessary. But when given the choice of where my money is going to be most effective, and not knowing anything about SEO or how to choose someone reputable and effective....Google ads now beats a 6+ month SEO gamble that costs the same or more... any way you slice it.

:thumbsup:



And do not pay for back links. If the people or service you are buying links from are ever dinged by Google ( which Google is actively searching for people who sell links), then you get dinged too. And if that happens it will take you forever to get out of the sandbox and start getting ranked again.

The following is something I heard about recently and shows you the effect that bad SEO tactics can have on your site:
Google Puts Rap Genius Back Atop Searches, Favoring Smart Results Over Holding A Grudge | TechCrunch (http://techcrunch.com/2014/01/04/google-rap-genius-seo/)

[billbenson]

I would hire an SEO firm. I would pay about $300 a month for 50 backlinks.

Huggy, this is bad advice. Don't do this.

[Harold Mansfield]

I continue to play w/ adwords myself...I just blew $50 last week w/o a valid call from it....I think people click me looking for parts...its shocking how many adwords clicks I get w/o any calls from it....I ask every actual customer in detail how they found me....rarely does adwords do anything....it has worked a few times in my hometown and I noticed it DID help me move up on my normal listing in my hometown.....but otherwise I don't think it works well...its just too expensive for Plumbers...$3 a hit....adds up quick with window shoppers

Ad words isn't easy. Advertising isn't easy. It can take some time to learn the best way to write, optimize, and target your ads for maximum effectiveness.
If you are getting clicks on your ads that aren't converting that's a tell sign that either the ads aren't targeted properly, or the landing page ( the place that the ad clicks through to) isn't built well.

If you are getting window shoppers, that tells me that your ads are attracting them. There are 5 stages of buying. Ads cost money, so you want to attract people who are ready to buy, not people who are looking for information.
The Five Stages of the Consumer Buying Process | eHow (http://www.ehow.com/info_7896069_five-stages-consumer-buying-process.html)

You can't just place ads, direct them to the front page of your website and hope for the best. Your ad program is a combination of your targeting, persuasive ad copy, and complimenting destination. It's a story. The last place they end up should finish the story and be an immediate call to action with an easy way to do that action.

You don't send people who click on ads somewhere where they have to start looking around to find more information about what the ad says. If you run 5 different ads targeting people looking for 5 different services, then you need 5 different landing pages that are ready to convert them for each of those services.

It all has to work together, or you'll just keep wasting your money. But it's learn-able, and you have much more control over ads, than you do SEO. You just need to learn how to use them effectively.

SEO is the same way as far as the money is concerned. If you don't learn anything about what you are buying, you will keep wasting money.

None of this is easy and you can't just throw money at it and sit back and wait. The better informed you are, and the more you get your own hands dirty with it, the better decisions you will make with your money, and the better it will work for you.

[huggytree]

here's the response from SEO company #2 to the letter i forwarded him from SEO company #1

i dont know what to make of it

they didn't really explain what they are going to do differently





Interesting strategy these guys have, basically they'll get you ranked for branded terms on page 1 through various forms, i.e. Yelp, BBB, etc. We can do the same but where's the strategy in that.

We want to get you ranked for non-branded terms and actually put forward a "Strategy" instead of just claiming we'll do x,y,z. This is a marketing play and should be treated as such.

What differentiates us is our skills and talent pool. We are highly talented and educated individuals who adapt to the changing market. Using old insufficient methods of SEO will only get you in trouble in the long run.

[Steve B]

Sounds like smoke and mirrors to me.

[huggytree]

the guy for $300 a month is telling me what he's going to do...the guy for $750 is really telling me nothing other than his way is better

for $300 I get 3 new pages a month.....they want to have my website someday be 200+ pages from what I can figure....a page for each keyword and city.....so id have 20 pages with WATERHEATER CITYNAME

this is a similar idea to the original guy who wanted $15k+ for my website....

it all makes sense to me

for $750 all the guys says is he has a better talent pool and he has a strategy.....doesn't tell me the strategy, but he has one I guess

im most likely going to sign up for the $300 one tonight....I know what im getting for the $300 and I at least need to know I will be able to SEE what he has done for the $$

[huggytree]

Sounds like smoke and mirrors to me.

all this computer/interweb stuff has a bit of that too it.....

im seeing the results from a new website(better than expected) and now im on fire to take it to the next level

I like the physical world of plumbing....I can see it and touch it....there is no trickery or fancy words....a good job can be seen instantly...you don't rely on Google to rank your work

[Wozcreative]

here's the response from SEO company #2 to the letter i forwarded him from SEO company #1

i dont know what to make of it

they didn't really explain what they are going to do differently





Interesting strategy these guys have, basically they'll get you ranked for branded terms on page 1 through various forms, i.e. Yelp, BBB, etc. We can do the same but where's the strategy in that.

We want to get you ranked for non-branded terms and actually put forward a "Strategy" instead of just claiming we'll do x,y,z. This is a marketing play and should be treated as such.

What differentiates us is our skills and talent pool. We are highly talented and educated individuals who adapt to the changing market. Using old insufficient methods of SEO will only get you in trouble in the long run.

LOL WHAT?!?! The guy didn't even answer your question or show you how he will do it! What a bunch of trolls ;)
Al he said was talent pool and we know what we're doing. Wow I wish I could get business walking around telling people I'm awesome.


I'm understanding this is the guy I referred you to.. embarrassing.. but at least I told you that I have never worked with them.. I've only heard good things from a client of mine who I really trust. Anyway this proves my point.. SEO specialists are just poo poo. Smoke and mirrors. etc.

I feel bad, at this stage you must be SO SO SO Confused... theres just no clean cut answer though :( just use your best judgement, ask for proof, ask for explanations and review review review everything they do, say they will do. etc.

[huggytree]

LOL WHAT?!?! The guy didn't even answer your question or show you how he will do it! What a bunch of trolls ;)
Al he said was talent pool and we know what we're doing. Wow I wish I could get business walking around telling people I'm awesome.


I'm understanding this is the guy I referred you to.. embarrassing.. but at least I told you that I have never worked with them.. I've only heard good things from a client of mine who I really trust. Anyway this proves my point.. SEO specialists are just poo poo. Smoke and mirrors. etc.

I feel bad, at this stage you must be SO SO SO Confused... theres just no clean cut answer though :( just use your best judgement, ask for proof, ask for explanations and review review review everything they do, say they will do. etc.

just so you know that's the guy you referred me to.....ouch!

I know, I know...you really didn't know him

I emailed the other guy and said to write up the contract....im finally getting rid of the WOW slider!!!

also noticed the other guy forgot to put the MC/Visa logo's on my home page

soon all my flaws will be fixed and ill have the best website ever

my goal is a WOZ---- 9 out of 10

here's to a $100,000+ in website sales for 2014 for Waukesha Plumbing llc

[cbscreative]

ask for proof

I don't think it can get any simpler than this. You may be getting a list of exactly what you're getting with the $300 company but you have no way of knowing what good it will do you. The only thing I would add to getting proof of ranking other sites is that it be sustained ranking. There are ton of SEO tactics out there and some of them work for a season. The ones who can show a sustained success are the ones using real strategies instead of tricks.

[Fulcrum]

Wow I wish I could get business walking around telling people I'm awesome.

I do this all the time. Maybe it's just my go get em attitude that make the sale.

In all seriousness though, there's a difference between confidence and cockiness.

[billbenson]

Huggy, I would strongly recommend two things. First spend half an hour or an hour a week studying SEO and AdWords. Or whatever time you decide to devote to it. Over time you will get a much better understanding of this stuff and be more able to manage these people you are thinking about hiring.

The other thing I would suggest is making a WordPress hobby site. And try to get it ranked high in Google. Maybe even play with some adwords on this. The first two weeks or so, you may find you need a couple of hours a day learning. After that you will probably need 1 hour a month.

These suggestions are for your education, not to become a web designer. It'll take some time, but in a year or so you will be better able to manage people working on your web site. Just like other marketing you do that you have researched heavily, you need to understand online marketing as it is the future. Stay a step ahead of your competitors.

[billbenson]

Harold had a really good response in post 26 / 27.

[huggytree]

I don't think it can get any simpler than this. You may be getting a list of exactly what you're getting with the $300 company but you have no way of knowing what good it will do you. The only thing I would add to getting proof of ranking other sites is that it be sustained ranking. There are ton of SEO tactics out there and some of them work for a season. The ones who can show a sustained success are the ones using real strategies instead of tricks.

ive been shown his success....I have no idea if its a week or 10 years, but I know he can get amazing ranking....one plumber had #1,#2,#3,#4,#5,#6,#7,#8....he completely owned page 1 on a google search

I find that amazing

[Harold Mansfield]

What differentiates us is our skills and talent pool. We are highly talented and educated individuals who adapt to the changing market. .

I do beleive this is the boilerplate tag line/bio of every "marketer" and SEO person on Twitter and Linked In. Just general nonsense that says absolutely nothing.

[huggytree]

I asked him in detail to explain what he is going to do and he still answered with vague responses....I don't get how people hire someone without knowing what they are going to do for them....its just an odd business where you can just tell people that 'were more talented than the other guy'

[Wozcreative]

I asked him in detail to explain what he is going to do and he still answered with vague responses....I don't get how people hire someone without knowing what they are going to do for them....its just an odd business where you can just tell people that 'were more talented than the other guy'

Yea thats total BS. This is what 90% of SEO specialists are. It's very hard to find someone who is honest with this stuff. Why? Because it is very complex and not cut dry so they can smoke and mirror all day long.
Very disappointed this guy turned out to be a dud since it was a referral from a good client of mine who actually KNOWS his stuff in terms of web development.

[Harold Mansfield]

I asked him in detail to explain what he is going to do and he still answered with vague responses....I don't get how people hire someone without knowing what they are going to do for them....its just an odd business where you can just tell people that 'were more talented than the other guy'

Because SEO is not an exact science. Google only tells you so much about how they do things, Bing doesn't tell you anything, and the rest you learn by trial and error or by reading other people who have learned by trial and error.

What you did for successfully for one client, may not (probably won't) get the same results for another.

There are some things that are universal that do work, but after that its pretty much a crap shoot in that you won't know for sure if everything you are doing is working, until it works.

That's why SEO's are so vague. Because they can't make any promises and be absolutely sure of any results. All they can do is tell you what should work, or what has worked in the past for others before Google changed things again.

Every SEO knows what you want. You want to rank higher in the SERPs vs your competitors, more traffic to your website, and you want that traffic to convert into sales. I'm here to tell you that SEO alone won't do all of that for you no matter how much money you spend on it.

You need a complete marketing strategy. Not merely focus on the position of your website in the SERP's. That alone WILL NOT increase sales.

[johnkaster]

Well , making sales through SEO practice depends on lots of factors. Generally a correct practice is to start with Google AD Words, because unless, you bid, with lesser bidding price also, you will see impressions on your terminal, that clearly explains user’s search behavior.
So unless, you hire some one who really understands your product details and above it, you must show interest in actual marketing plan. Remember no SEO Company can get your over night ranking. All you have to do is, place Ads always, and start organic SEO work simultaneously.
And in regard to sales, you should do some ground work with your competitors sales statistics.

[Wozcreative]

A client of mine recently proved my point about SEO. He asked me about it and I told him straight up it is all smoke and mirrors and I told him the site has to be BUILT on the basis of good on-site SEO standards. His response was that over the 8 years he had a website, he's hired 2 - 3 different SEO experts. He also simultaneously ran ADS. He seemed to do pretty well, but was curious about how SEO was working.. after some months he turned off the Ads and calls stopped coming in. He got rid of the "SEO monthly fee experts" and just ran ads successfully.

Now he is starting another business and I plan to get him off the ground from the get go with a web marketing strategy and with the promise that he will never have to hire outside SEO experts unless it is someone who deals with social media, a content writer or maintenance to the website with respect to updates. I'll also be implementing IP Cursor recording which will help in further development of the site, knowing which buttons, call to actions etc are working and which need to be revised. (Example, some of the icons on my site are currently not a link.. but everyone is clicking on them! This gives me the opportunity to turn those into links and take them to a relevant page).

[huggytree]

A client of mine recently proved my point about SEO. He asked me about it and I told him straight up it is all smoke and mirrors and I told him the site has to be BUILT on the basis of good on-site SEO standards. His response was that over the 8 years he had a website, he's hired 2 - 3 different SEO experts. He also simultaneously ran ADS. He seemed to do pretty well, but was curious about how SEO was working.. after some months he turned off the Ads and calls stopped coming in. He got rid of the "SEO monthly fee experts" and just ran ads successfully.

Now he is starting another business and I plan to get him off the ground from the get go with a web marketing strategy and with the promise that he will never have to hire outside SEO experts unless it is someone who deals with social media, a content writer or maintenance to the website with respect to updates. I'll also be implementing IP Cursor recording which will help in further development of the site, knowing which buttons, call to actions etc are working and which need to be revised. (Example, some of the icons on my site are currently not a link.. but everyone is clicking on them! This gives me the opportunity to turn those into links and take them to a relevant page).

that makes me feel better about my choice.....I will know what they are doing...there's no smoke/mirrors......ill have a website with 200+ pages someday....I will know fairly quickly if that idea is working....they pretty much said these pages should be close to #1 within 6 months of making them....im also seeing the existing pages I have rise every week....my original web designer couldn't have done such a bad job since most of what he did is working..

[huggytree]

I guess my old web designer is either causing problems for my new seo guy or doesn't have enough knowledge...my new web guy had to piece my website back together and work around my old website guy.....the old guy couldn't transfer it for some reason.....since my email is with the old designer too he suggested using GoDaddy for my email....

what a mess....

any thoughts on godaddy email?

looks like my website will be down for a couple of days until the new guy can piece if back together

[Wozcreative]

Generally transferring data from one server to another server with a basic wordpress site such as yours should not be an issue. It can take a few hours just downloading and uploading the files to the new site with it's plugins etc but all settings and data are in a database that is a single file when downloaded. It's then uploaded and replacing the old data.

Switching a domain from one server to another, or email address can take anywhere from a few hours to 72 hours due to propagation, depending on how you're setting it up.

For some reason I have a feeling your old web guy hired someone else to do the website and he's reliant on someone else to do the work (which is why it took so long every time to do anything).


Regarding godaddy.. I've never used them, but I trust everyone's comments when they say not to think about godaddy.

[Harold Mansfield]

I guess my old web designer is either causing problems for my new seo guy or doesn't have enough knowledge...my new web guy had to piece my website back together and work around my old website guy.....the old guy couldn't transfer it for some reason.....since my email is with the old designer too he suggested using GoDaddy for my email....

what a mess....

any thoughts on godaddy email?

looks like my website will be down for a couple of days until the new guy can piece if back together

I'm still trying to figure out why you are hosting with web designers and SEO's. We were all pretty emphatic on more than one occasion that this is a nightmare scenario waiting to happen. DO NOT make yourself vulnerable to your webmaster of the day.

YOU should be in charge of ALL of your accounts (hosting and domain). It should all be in your name. Anyone you hire should be able to work with you within your own hosting account. They don't need to host it, to perform work on it.

Setting up a hosting account is not that hard. I've walked 70 year old ladies through it. Once it's set up any web master can help you do whatever you need done on it or your website.

As far as Go Daddy is concerned, I'm not a fan, but email is the one thing that I haven't had or heard many complaints about.

With all due respect Huggy, you seem to be doing the exact opposite of what some of the more experienced members of the forum keep trying to help you with. The people who've been through it before. Or do it for a living. People who've been hosting and running their own websites for years.

Here's how this more times than not, turns out:



At first, everything seems fine. But soon you realize that he's not as responsive as he used to be.
After some time, you figure out that you aren't happy with the service or the results that you are getting.
You contact the web person that you are hosting with and tell him you want to make a change.
He tells you that you are under contract with him, or says that you need to pay some kind of penalty to gain access to move your site
You have no access to your hosting account or website files because it's all in his name... so you have no choice but to pay.
Now you are pissed and think that every webmaster is an unscrupulous thief.


I see this story at least once a week and have seen it at least once a week for over 4 years now. I'm certainly not wishing it on you and I hope everything works out well. But why even take the risk when it's so easy (and cheap) to avoid?

You don't seem like the type of guy who doesn't think things through, but in this instance I think your exuberance to catch up with your competitors has you walking with your eyes closed, and hand out full of money waiting for someone to tell you what you want to hear.

I for one, have not been confident in anything that you've heard from service providers yet, and see you about waste a lot of money doing the dance where you jump from one guy to the next until you figure it out.

Actually, you've already begun.

[huggytree]

my new seo/web guy seems to be great so far...tons of communications....I have no contract beyond 1 month with him (I had the choice of paying monthly or paying for 6 months at once...I did pay for 6 months)....he says after 6 months were going to have a review and see if what he's doing is working.....its him who suggested a email account not connected to anyone......he has been exact in what he's going to do for me....he has just sent me a copy of my website (something he promised)....

I have 0 complaints about him at this point.....he's doing everything he said he would and seems to be looking out for me

my ex-designer? he's been a disappointment since the 2nd week.....and Woz! I wonder if your right...someone is designing my website...that explains the lag in response..its always, always 5-7 days later.....he may be waiting for someone else to respond...maybe from India

here's one of the latest emails from him:

Hi David,

Sorry this took so long... Paul, was uh... not so easy to deal with. We were asking for pretty standard industry stuff and he was not working with us. As a result we spent several hours trying to manually piece the site back together for you and we were successful moving the site, not your stored emails however. You might have to save those locally on your computer.



trust me I have listened to every ones advice....problem is many have contradicted each other(I have posted this issue on another business forum too)....I don't think any 2 people agree on anything...whether its SEO or website design.....I see my new website working and moving up weekly on various Google searches, so I know my original web designer must have knew something and done a decent job.....and my new SEO guy can prove his method of creating hundreds of pages for each specific keyword also works...ive seen his examples and they work for his other customers....

im less frustrated than I was a few weeks ago....and im hoping to be riding high in a few months

[huggytree]

You don't seem like the type of guy who doesn't think things through, but in this instance I think your exuberance to catch up with your competitors has you walking with your eyes closed, and hand out full of money waiting for someone to tell you what you want to hear.

.

this 'may' be a true statement....because I don't know who to trust....im only spending $300 a month right now....so its not exuberant...its petty cash for an experiment......when I hear other contractors talk about SEO they always seem to be moving from one to another.....that's why I didn't go with the guy who couldn't explain what he was going to do for me for $750...I chose a guy who could actually tell me what he's going to do

I still think I may end up having 20 websites ...1 for each city....I see this as a new trend and I see that it works....and works well......

[Harold Mansfield]

my new seo/web guy seems to be great so far...tons of communications....I have no contract beyond 1 month with him (I had the choice of paying monthly or paying for 6 months at once...I did pay for 6 months)....he says after 6 months were going to have a review and see if what he's doing is working.

What happens if you decide to stop working with him after 6 months? Can you move your website to a new host? Will he give you access to the hosting account, or just relay a bunch of zip files to you and that's it?

And how many times do you want to keep moving your site every time you hire a new web person? That's not how savvy people do it.


....he has been exact in what he's going to do for me....he has just sent me a copy of my website (something he promised)....


All files AND a backup of the database? See this is what we are talking about when we tell you NOT to host with a webmaster. You should be able back up your own site, whenever you want. You shouldn't be at the mercy of someone else. This is your website that you paid for. Why let someone else be in complete control of it's existence as long as your relationship with them is OK?

I know you feel good about him and things are going well now. But what if they don't always? What if he turns out to be a jerk? How will you get your website off of his hosting account?

Get your own hosting with 24/7 tech support. You pay the bill, your site stays up and you have complete control and access to everything that makes it run. Period. It's too important. And this is why....


my ex-designer? he's been a disappointment since the 2nd week.....and Woz! I wonder if your right...someone is designing my website...that explains the lag in response..its always, always 5-7 days later.....he may be waiting for someone else to respond...maybe from India


If you weren't hosted with him, you could have easily pulled the plug as soon as things started going south, and had someone pick up where he left off and finish the job.

Anyone who won't work with you unless you also host with them, should raise a red flag. If they get you to agree to hosting with them, they have you by the balls. No, not everyone is unscrupulous. But why risk it?

[Wozcreative]

Hi David,

Sorry this took so long... Paul, was uh... not so easy to deal with. We were asking for pretty standard industry stuff and he was not working with us. As a result we spent several hours trying to manually piece the site back together for you and we were successful moving the site, not your stored emails however. You might have to save those locally on your computer.



What does this even mean? This guy hasn't communicated with you properly in my opinion. Instead of telling you your web developer is an a-hole to him he should actually tell you how he is being hard to deal with and what he isn't providing him properly.

What does "piece the site together" even mean? There's no piecing it together. You GET THE FILES off FTP then GET DATABASE FILE AND UPLOAD! THERE IS NO PIECING!

The NEXT step they are going to tell you is that they are CHARGING YOU EXTRA, because your developer is being unreasonable and not providing "pretty standard stuff".

Contact paul and figure out what he's being unreasonable about and DEMAND answers as to what is not being provided. None of this smoke and mirrors crap. Where are the DETAILS of what is going on? You should be CC'd ON ALL EMAILS. This is a load of BS.

BTW I sound like an angry troll.. not to you but to the dudes that are "doing the dance" with you! I have sympathy for plumbers otherwise, they are great people.

[huggytree]

I had 3 emails before this asking for things and showing Pauls response....I have no exact idea what it means......

this was the last email...ill try to find the others

[MyITGuy]

I guess my old web designer is either causing problems for my new seo guy or doesn't have enough knowledge...my new web guy had to piece my website back together and work around my old website guy.....the old guy couldn't transfer it for some reason.....since my email is with the old designer too he suggested using GoDaddy for my email....

what a mess....

any thoughts on godaddy email?

looks like my website will be down for a couple of days until the new guy can piece if back together


:Sigh: We've all said it before - Avoid GoDaddy and 1and1 like the plauge...I would also add hostgator to that list.

If your looking for a reputable hosting company that has 24/7 support (I don't do 24/7 support so my name isn't going to be there lol), then I would recommend the following from this list (Hosting Providers | cPanel, Inc. (http://cpanel.net/hosting-providers/))
BurstNet
HostDime
LiquidWeb
WiredTree

In all reality, your site should not be down for more than a few hours, let alone days to perform a site transfer. If you want some assistance, then PM me and I'll provide my contact information.

Regarding e-mail - If anything, I would suggest using a GMail Business Account for $50/user per year. This keeps your e-mail separate from your webhost, and if you end up transferring your site to different hosts over the next few years, your e-mail will stay in the same place with very little issues.

[Harold Mansfield]

Huggy, you said that you get conflicting advice from different people on different forums. Well, that's pretty normal. If you ask a question 5 times, you'll get responses from people with varying experiences, knowledge and motives.

Somewhere along with that varied advice, should be your own due diligence, and education on what you are buying.

[billbenson]

Huggy, you said that you get conflicting advice from different people on different forums. Well, that's pretty normal. If you ask a question 5 times, you'll get responses from people with varying experiences, knowledge and motives.

Somewhere along with that varied advice, should be your own due diligence, and education on what you are buying.

I didn't go back and review all of the posts on this thread, but if you look at the posts from all the 'competent' people on this thread I don't recall many contradictions. There may have been different ways to approach the problem, but that's not saying the post above you is wrong.

[Wozcreative]

By the way, just so you don't get conflicting advice.. the reason why MyITGuy is saying to stay away from hostgator (while for the most part I supported it along with a few others), is because they have recently dropped the ball on their customers and have been down 3 times last year.. and went down on new years. Do your own research while listening to advice.

But there are quite a bit of unanimous things we do say here on the board which you did go against (and it bit you in the butt). As professionals who do this day in and day out, we know the warning signs. One thing that is a tell tale sign about Paul, was that he was no longer really running his business due to the fact that his website says.... 2009. His client websites are even OLDER than that. The site came out nice and 10x better than any of his portfolio pieces. This tells me he hired someone else.

Freelancers never have time to update their website. But to not update it for 4 (going on 5) years just means he's not practicing anymore. But of course that's not something anyone would know who doesn't do this on a regular basis. Just sending it home that we do know phoney balonies when we see them.

@harold - by the way I sent you an email to your support email listed on your site.. I haven't gotten a response unless it got lost in my email.

[Harold Mansfield]

@harold - by the way I sent you an email to your support email listed on your site.. I haven't gotten a response unless it got lost in my email.

I see it now. Went to the junk folder for some reason. Sorry about that.

[Robert Stafford]

It often depends on the type of SEO. Be sure that the methods are not blackhat, as this may damage your site's rankings in the future. The last thing you want is a detrimental drop due to a change in google's algorithm. Another factor is the saturation of your keyword(s) and niche.

[huggytree]

It often depends on the type of SEO. Be sure that the methods are not blackhat, as this may damage your site's rankings in the future. The last thing you want is a detrimental drop due to a change in google's algorithm. Another factor is the saturation of your keyword(s) and niche.

the company I hired does White Hat only

their changes are supposed to go live in a couple of days

they are going to bench mark all my pages and then keep track of them moving up/down

with all the extreme cold weather I didn't get 1 call from my website for frozen pipes/burst pipe repairs.....so I know my website still isn't working for me the way it should at the moment

by this time next year I expect more phone calls than I can handle when these emergency things happen....there has to be thousands of people with issues locally....not to get 1 call is sad.....I should have gotten 5-10+ a day...maybe 50 a day

[Harold Mansfield]

by this time next year I expect more phone calls than I can handle when these emergency things happen....there has to be thousands of people with issues locally....not to get 1 call is sad.....I should have gotten 5-10+ a day...maybe 50 a day

Your expectations are a little unrealistic. SEO alone is NOT going to do that for you. SEO is only one part of your overall marketing and promotion plan. If your goal is 5-10 or even 50 calls a day, you will have to have a solid online AND offline marketing strategy going. It all works together.

I know you are going to respond with how someone else gets [insert arbitrary number] of business from their website. I'm here to tell you there's more to it. I get 80% of my business from my website. But it's not all just from SEO. It's a lot of factors. My website is just where most end up before they take the final action to contact me, but not necessarily the first place they saw or heard about me.

[huggytree]

Your expectations are a little unrealistic. SEO alone is NOT going to do that for you. SEO is only one part of your overall marketing and promotion plan. If your goal is 5-10 or even 50 calls a day, you will have to have a solid online AND offline marketing strategy going. It all works together.

I know you are going to respond with how someone else gets [insert arbitrary number] of business from their website.I'm here to tell you there's more to it. I get 80% of my business from my website. But it's not all just from SEO. It's a lot of factors. My website is just were most end up before they take the final action to contact me.


the city my company is named after is very large.....there must have been hundred of burst pipes

when they do a search for a plumber why wouldn't my name come up? for some reason they didn't pick me or they used different search words

if 500 people had burst pipes why couldn't 50 of them call me? I need to get my website in front of them or figure out why they are clicking on me and not choosing me

[Harold Mansfield]

the city my company is named after is very large.....there must have been hundred of burst pipes

when they do a search for a plumber why wouldn't my name come up? for some reason they didn't pick me or they used different search words

if 500 people had burst pipes why couldn't 50 of them call me? I need to get my website in front of them or figure out why they are clicking on me and not choosing me
Yes, you have a nice domain. But you aren't doing anything with it. You are completely and easily beatable in the SERPs. You can't sit back and just rely on your URL to do all of the work. Google could care less how many people live in your city.

Search engines don't work on emotion or what you think is common sense. They work by matching 0's and 1's to other simular or exact 0's and 1's that they deem credible or important information based on other recommendations, design, coding, age, fresh content and a wealth of other factors.

You are assuming that 500 people are all using the web to find a plumber and none of them already know of plumbers to call on through local advertising, referrals, Angie's List, or are past clients.

You are also assuming that in comparison with every other plumber in the area that they can find in the SERP's that your company, and your website has the best presentation, the most complete information, and the clearest call to action.

If you are saying to yourself, "Why aren't they choosing me over them", then it's obvious that you don't have the best overall presentation between yourself and your immediate competitors...or you would be winning the battle.

You are looking at this all wrong. Instead of asking "Why wouldn't they call me?" you should be looking at the entire experience of finding and contacting you from the customers eyes. Not your own.
Promotion on the web is not one good thing, and leave the others by the wayside. You can't dump all of your time and money on just SEO, and not complete the experience.

People start making the decision to or not to contact you long before they get to your website. If it's a true search for services, it starts with your headline, description, placement, URL, and then finally the sale should happen on your website. They should know that you offer the services that they are looking for from the SERPS. If they have to click on your website to find out, you've already lost them to someone else.

By the time they call you, all you should be doing is closing them.

You need to ask yourself these questions:



Is my website designed well. Not just good enough, but is it truly as good or better than my competition?
Does it provide enough information for people to make a decision for all of the services that I offer?
Is that information presented clearly, or do they have to search around for it?
Is there a clear call to action?
If you didn't know you, and you landed on your website, and your best competitors website, would you call you over them?


Also, you said that you didn't get one call for burst pipes.

That's because there is no way that your site will ever come up for that term or phrase. Actually, it probably won't come up for any phrase specific to any plumbing services. The only thing your website will probably ever come up in the SERPS for is your city and "Plumbers" or "Plumbing". Because that is the only thing that it is optimized to match against search requests.

It is not built to come up for any of the plumbing services that you offer, and the areas that you service in the SERPS, so you have zero chance of actually capturing any traffic for them.

Even your home page title and description does nothing to attract people to click through. You have a 70 character limit for your page headline, and 156 character limit for you description, and you are wasting them. Even looking at your competition for the same search terms, they aren't doing that well either. They are also wasting space. So it shouldn't be that hard to at least beat them in that area.

When I search for your city and plumbing, you should have all 10 spots. At least 3-4 out of the first 5.

So hopefully whoever these new people are that you have hired for SEO will rectify this, but it really should have been built to capture specific search terms and phrases from the ground up. And it wasn't.

[billbenson]

Your expectations are a little unrealistic. SEO alone is NOT going to do that for you. SEO is only one part of your overall marketing and promotion plan. If your goal is 5-10 or even 50 calls a day, you will have to have a solid online AND offline marketing strategy going. It all works together.

I know you are going to respond with how someone else gets [insert arbitrary number] of business from their website. I'm here to tell you there's more to it. I get 80% of my business from my website. But it's not all just from SEO. It's a lot of factors. My website is just where most end up before they take the final action to contact me, but not necessarily the first place they saw or heard about me.

I think you are accurate in huggy's case. In my case all my traffic comes directly or indirectly (referrals). Just a little bit of clarification for others reading this thread.

[Harold Mansfield]

I think you are accurate in huggy's case. In my case all my traffic comes directly or indirectly (referrals). Just a little bit of clarification for others reading this thread.

Perfect example of how different things work for different businesses. Like I always say, "You have to get in where you fit in". It's not one size fits all.

[tallen]

Huggy, I'm just wondering how realistic your estimate of 500 frozen pipes in your service area really is. Your namesake city isn't really huge (there is much larger city further east, outside your service area), and being that you are in Wisconsin, cold temperatures would be expected, so the houses there should generally be well insulated and heated. Sure, it's been colder this winter than in recent years, but do you have evidence (anecdotal or otherwise) that there has been an unusual plethora of frozen/burst pipes this year?

Secondly, I would agree with Harold that somebody searching for "frozen pipe repair" (or anything related) is never going to find your website, because you make absolutely no mention of this service.

[billbenson]

Perfect example of how different things work for different businesses. Like I always say, "You have to get in where you fit in". It's not one size fits all.

I don't think I phrased this very well. I meant to say " In my case all my traffic comes directly or indirectly (referrals) from seo.


Huggy, I'm just wondering how realistic your estimate of 500 frozen pipes in your service area really is. Your namesake city isn't really huge (there is much larger city further east, outside your service area), and being that you are in Wisconsin, cold temperatures would be expected, so the houses there should generally be well insulated and heated. Sure, it's been colder this winter than in recent years, but do you have evidence (anecdotal or otherwise) that there has been an unusual plethora of frozen/burst pipes this year?

Secondly, I would agree with Harold that somebody searching for "frozen pipe repair" (or anything related) is never going to find your website, because you make absolutely no mention of this service.

Huggy, correct me if I'm wrong, but I would think most cold weather pipe problems come from above the current frost level. That would imply that places like Atlanta or the places in the Panhandle of FL that were hit by frost would have a much higher than a place like northern Wisconsin.

This is also a good example of why you need to take a more active role in your SEO. As mentioned above, nobody is going to find your site in a search for frozen water pipe repair. If they search for plumber in your city, you are fine.

You have taken such great efforts in other types of marketing that many of us don't understand why you won't dig into internet marketing. If your assumption that there are a lot of failures in your area are from frozen water pipes. At a minimum you should be putting up a page on frozen water pipe repair. This is one of the beauties of WordPress. You can put up a page on this just like you would write a page in Word. It'll take a week or two to figure it out, but it's not rocket science. A professional will do a much better job, but you can still do it. Because of all the intricacies in plumbing you can do a better job of actually writing the first draft. You can then go in and have a professional go in and tweak it.

[huggytree]

I agree with everything Harold said

im just guessing 500 people...maybe its less....other plumbers had more than they could handle.....so im missing out on something big

I know I need more pages....specific pages....my original web designer for $16k wanted to build me a 100-150 page website(I don't remember anymore).....now that's the direction im heading with the new guy....3 pages a month until I get hundreds

I 1/2 way regret not going with the high end guy from day 1....the more I learn the more they had the right approach and now in the end I will pay monthly to get what they could have gotten me from day 1....

my new revised website is supposed to go live this weekend.....maybe tonight.......hoping to see some changes for the better...and get rid of the WOW slider you all hate

I have already discussed with the SEO guy about having a page for burst pipes

[Harold Mansfield]

I know I need more pages....specific pages....
Yes. That's the name of the game.


my original web designer for $16k wanted to build me a 100-150 page website(I don't remember anymore).....now that's the direction im heading with the new guy....3 pages a month until I get hundreds
It's not about the number of pages. Don't get caught up thinking you need to spam the internet with arbitrary pages that do nothing but repeat your keywords over and over again. Google does not reward that.

But yes, you should have a well written, optimized page for each of your core services that gives people enough information to make a decision and do some kind of call to action.

As time goes on, you may add other services...then add pages telling people about those services. And keep your old pages up to date.


I have already discussed with the SEO guy about having a page for burst pipes
Good man.

[huggytree]

Yes. That's the name of the game.


It's not about the number of pages. Don't get caught up thinking you need to spam the internet with arbitrary pages that do nothing but repeat your keywords over and over again. Google does not reward that.

But yes, you should have a well written, optimized page for each of your core services that gives people enough information to make a decision and do some kind of call to action.

As time goes on, you may add other services...then add pages telling people about those services. And keep your old pages up to date.


Good man.

that is exactly the plan with the new SEO guy....he has been very exact on what he plans to do.

a page for every city with every task

[huggytree]

my new SEO'd website should appear tomorrow 2-11-13

im told SEO is 10x better

I still have some changes I want to make and will be adding a few pages a month for 2014

[Business Attorney]

I'm no SEO expert but I always understood that Google would treat pages as duplicate content if they were basically the same. I looked at several of your city pages and they seemed to be virtually identical except for the name of the city. I would think that if your goal is to get the pages indexed for particular cities, you may need to have unique content for each page.

[huggytree]

that is also my understanding of it too

but I have noticed all of those city pages moving up weekly since the initial launch

my revised website is now live....he didn't change much yet, but I agree with the things he did so far.... there's supposed to be a bunch of SEO stuff done that I cant see

[MyITGuy]

Looking at the source, your SEO Guy is linking to most of your pages and images by IP Address...
First - If you decide to move to a new host this is going to break allot of things
Second - I would think this would have a negative impact on your SEO Ranking since you are not referencing the domain name anymore.

Other than that, I'm not seeing many "under the hood" changes at the moment.

[Wozcreative]

Looking at the source, your SEO Guy is linking to most of your pages and images by IP Address...
First - If you decide to move to a new host this is going to break allot of things
Second - I would think this would have a negative impact on your SEO Ranking since you are not referencing the domain name anymore.

Other than that, I'm not seeing many "under the hood" changes at the moment.

Because he's linking directly off the site he is missing already 4 basic SEO rules:

1) Host images in your own server with as little folders to get to it as possible
2) Rename all the photos to proper terms describing the photos
3) Creating accessible content descriptions, alt descriptions and captions for photos directly in wordpress (though I am not sure they are even using wordpress for this new site)
4) Create a xml sitemap of just images and submit it to search engines

Basic stuff.

[huggytree]

im officially giving up!

[billbenson]

No Huggy, do what you should do and educate yourself on this stuff. You have on everything else!

[MyITGuy]

No Huggy, do what you should do and educate yourself on this stuff. You have on everything else!

And follow some of the great advice that has provided via this forum for the last few months, free of charge.

I still don't understand why you would choose to work with two unknown people (First designer, and now the new 'SEO' guy) that you just met over several people who who are providing advise for free on a forum, want to see you be successful and have warned you about the guys you were planning on working with.

If I were in your shoes, I would hired someone from this forum on Day 1...unless there were special circumstances that I needed to take into consideration.

[huggytree]

No Huggy, do what you should do and educate yourself on this stuff. You have on everything else!

id rather not spend my time educating myself....I want to hire someone and get it done

I am regretting not spending the $15k for the original web designer I wanted.....and the $800 a month for seo....they were crazy expensive, but I hear and see their stuff all day long..they are heavy into radio marketing along with websites....

im now on my 3rd day with no email...my new seo guy cant get it figured out......im going to end up hiring someone just to get my email working again....he doesn't seem to be able to figure it out.

I could hire any plumber out of the phone book and have decent results.....id have to dig into craigs list and search for someone for 1/2 price to get the kind of service/quality im getting from the 2 web guys I chose

maybe I jumped into the new seo guy too quickly...but my original designer I took months to decide...got references...asked tons of questions and still got very poor results..



maybe by next week I will have dumped everything and will hire the $15k guy and completely start over with the whole process

[MyITGuy]

im now on my 3rd day with no email...my new seo guy cant get it figured out......im going to end up hiring someone just to get my email working again....he doesn't seem to be able to figure it out.

Looks like he messed up your MX Records (DNS Server). Your domain is telling servers to send e-mail to waukeshaplumbing-com.mail.protection.outlook.com, but this domain/host does not exist. If you have an account with Office365 which that domain would indicate, then he needs to work with them as they are the only ones who can fix this issue. In the meantime, have him point the MX Record back to where it was so you get e-mail back.

Took me 30 seconds to figure this out...if you want some assistance...let me know....

[Harold Mansfield]

id rather not spend my time educating myself....I want to hire someone and get it done

So then you'll keep wasting money.

The more you learn about your own web presence FOR YOUR BUSINESS and how the web works, the better equipped you will be to hire the correct person. Right now you are just throwing good money after bad because you keep trying to apply hiring a plumber, to hiring a web person.It is not anywhere near the same thing.

We've all given you at least 3 years of solid advice. And you've done the opposite every single time.
And it that 3 years, many of us have grown the amount of business we get online using the principles that we share freely with you. I'm at about 80% now. And in that same 3 years you've ignored us, have had no improvement and keep throwing money away on exactly the things we tell you NOT to throw it away on.

If anyone needs to officially give up, I think it's us.

[Harold Mansfield]

Best advice I'll ever give you.

Stop hiring people who keep telling you want they can do for you, if they aren't doing it for themselves.
Stop hiring people with crappy websites just because they are local. The locals are robbing you blind.
Stop hiring SEO's that don't rank for anything or that you can't find online.
Stop hiring SEO's until you know what SEO is.
Stop hiring people to write copy who can't spell.
Stop hiring people who merely look the part and talk a good game, and hire people who have it and do it.

I'm a web guy and I'm telling you to stop hiring web guys until you know what you are doing and are willing to learn something about your own business marketing.

That is all.

[billbenson]

So then you'll keep wasting money.

The more you learn about your own web presence FOR YOUR BUSINESS and how the web works, the better equipped you will be to hire the correct person. Right now you are just throwing good money after bad because you keep trying to apply hiring a plumber, to hiring a web person.It is not anywhere near the same thing.

We've all given you at least 3 years of solid advice. And you've done the opposite every single time.
And it that 3 years, many of us have grown the amount of business we get online using the principles that we share freely with you. I'm at about 80% now. And in that same 3 years you've ignored us, have had no improvement and keep throwing money away on exactly the things we tell you NOT to throw it away on.

If anyone needs to officially give up, I think it's us.

Ya, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

[Wozcreative]

maybe by next week I will have dumped everything and will hire the $15k guy and completely start over with the whole process

So you think spending more = better results? Are you serious?

Why are you starting OVER! All you have to do is ADD WHAT THE OTHER GUY DIDNT ADD and that's on-site SEO! That's it! you are 75% there. You just hired a dude that promised you SEO because that's what you wanted to hear.. but he had no idea what he was doing.

Likewise we told you not to hire the SEO guys that you did because it all sounded like smoke and mirrors.. and it was!

[huggytree]

in my hometown my website just moved ahead of my main competitor......granted I have 2 websites to hit him with.......but it shows something the new guy is doing is working.....my 2 websites dropped off the face of the earth for a week and have been slowly rising....today they rose to the top

[DarrenDeMatas]

I just got an email from the original $15k website builder I considered going with.....basically ripping on my new website

I asked them to quote me for SEO

their price was similar and I have no doubts they know what they are doing....they are very successful...I hear their customers radio ads daily (I know who their existing customers are)...very impressive....

I still am wondering if I need 15 websites...one for each city....that strategy sure worked for a competitor who did it....he's #1 for almost every city now...and his website sucks...his designer was my 3rd bid for the website project...he was $9k and I didn't choose him because I didn't like the strategy of 15 websites.....im starting to wonder if that would have been the cheaper and better way to go originally


No, you do not need one website for each city. You will run into duplicate content issues and it will be a NIGHTMARE to maintain in the long term. You really need to build links and authority to a single website. Otherwise your time and money will be spread too thin.

The thing you have to understand with SEO is that it takes time, 60-90 days for small local sites. 3-9 months for national. If I were you, I would use ppc to get some fast results, while doing SEO to build up some rank.

I would also recommend setting up your Google+Local page and Google Places, this way you can get more listings on the search engine results page.

You can also use a service called Yext, for $199/year that will help you rank locally. If you want to do it yourself, that is what I would do: PPC, Yext and Local Listings, you can also learn about Local SEO as Wozcreative pointed out.

For hyperlocal sites, like services focused in suburbs (not the main city) you should be fine with a $750/month budget ($250 for PPC and $500 for SEO)

Just don't make the mistake of optimizing a website domain that you do not own.

[DarrenDeMatas]

I am also SUPER confused at the "contact forms on every page". What the heck? They should be re-evaluating the content and making decisions on call to actions and not spamming the site with contact forms!



This is a legit tactic. Works very well. With small service companies, people need to be able to convert on an entry page.

[Harold Mansfield]

This is a legit tactic. Works very well. With small service companies, people need to be able to convert on an entry page.
It's overkill. Call to action on every page? Sure. But a form on every page? Looks very spammy and design wise it's amateurish. You'd be better off with a tabbed form that sticks out on the side of the page that is accessible from everywhere on the site.

[huggytree]

My new seo guy says he cant work with my old website now....its all falling apart....why didn't you guys warn me? (haha)

Harold and Elwira I sent you both emails...you have both been hammering me.......I need some final advice on where to go from here.....I need to start over and find someone else new to finally solve my issues...I emailed my original web designer...I assume he will still have an original copy that I can work from....ive asked him for a copy

We've talked back and forth for years now...hopefully you will feel sorry enough for me to help me....Harold you were spot on with whats happening

thanks

[Wozcreative]

My new seo guy says he cant work with my old website now....its all falling apart....why didn't you guys warn me? (haha)

Harold and Elwira I sent you both emails...you have both been hammering me.......I need some final advice on where to go from here.....I need to start over and find someone else new to finally solve my issues...I emailed my original web designer...I assume he will still have an original copy that I can work from....ive asked him for a copy

We've talked back and forth for years now...hopefully you will feel sorry enough for me to help me....Harold you were spot on with whats happening

thanks

You mean you didn't get a copy of your site after you switched from Paul to Carl when we told you that you needed one? :mad:

[billbenson]

not to mention the user / password to get into the site?

[huggytree]

You mean you didn't get a copy of your site after you switched from Paul to Carl when we told you that you needed one? :mad:

I believe I have a copy.....(I believe)....I have a file....just checked.....2 folders..one appears to be my website and the other is called the BACKUP CREATOR

Carl has offered to put my website on another server for me....he is being nice about it...but he's saying he cant work with my current website.

[huggytree]

not to mention the user / password to get into the site?

I had it for the old version....not sure about the new one

Carl is offering to move it onto another server.....he offered w/o me asking

[MyITGuy]

Carl is offering to move it onto another server.....he offered w/o me asking

Just be forewarned that the way the website is currently configured will break the design (He is linking to the images by IP Address/Account Name instead of using your actual domain name). If he were to perform the move, and did not tell you about this issue then expect another e-mail saying he will charge you to fix these issues.

Do you have your cPanel account information?

[huggytree]

Just be forewarned that the way the website is currently configured will break the design (He is linking to the images by IP Address/Account Name instead of using your actual domain name). If he were to perform the move, and did not tell you about this issue then expect another e-mail saying he will charge you to fix these issues.

Do you have your cPanel account information?

I have all the info on how to modify the website originally....add pictures, add text.....I have nothing from the new designer.....I may switch back to the old designer's version and start over from that point...ive contacted my original guy to discuss it.....it may be easier to start from the original designer than the 2nd one(I don't know)


I may or may not have the cpanel account info...not sure what it is

from what he is telling me I will need to scrap my existing website and start over....so it may not matter what I have right now

I want to double the city pages, add a bunch more pages for other services I offer and try to have separate city pages w/ specific services....im probably interested in 100 more pages.......im being told with the current design that's not possible.......if that's true looks like ill be starting over...at least I have all the photo's and text ready to go....hopefully it wont be another 7 month wait...hopefully 30 days this time...........im strongly considering switching the company to a new theme ''the high performance plumber' ....I already put racing stripes on the hood of my van....and have been thinking about incorporating a racing type theme angled towards plumbing...trying to advertising my plumbing as a high performance version of the norm. (which with the better parts I use it is)

I believe Harold said I needed to differentiate myself from the competition and not just do what everyone else does......I agree and its how ive always tried to run my business...just not as much with its website.....my current website is now getting me 8x-10x the phone calls....im already over last years total internet sales in just 8 weeks.....its showing me that a better website = more calls.........I don't want to stop with the website I have..i want to go further with it

[Harold Mansfield]

My new seo guy says he cant work with my old website now....its all falling apart....why didn't you guys warn me? (haha)

Harold and Elwira I sent you both emails...you have both been hammering me.......I need some final advice on where to go from here.....I need to start over and find someone else new to finally solve my issues...I emailed my original web designer...I assume he will still have an original copy that I can work from....ive asked him for a copy

We've talked back and forth for years now...hopefully you will feel sorry enough for me to help me....Harold you were spot on with whats happening

thanks

Got your message.
Sorry to hear things aren't working out.
I dropped you a replay to schedule a phone call.

[MyITGuy]

I have all the info on how to modify the website originally....add pictures, add text.....I have nothing from the new designer.....I may switch back to the old designer's version and start over from that point...ive contacted my original guy to discuss it.....it may be easier to start from the original designer than the 2nd one(I don't know)


I may or may not have the cpanel account info...not sure what it is

from what he is telling me I will need to scrap my existing website and start over....so it may not matter what I have right now

I would suggest that right now you do not make any changes. Work on obtaining all login information necessary and then work with Harold and Elwira (Is this a Forum Member?) and let them review where you are at and make the appropriate changes. Working with your current SEO person who has pretty much already proved incompetent, and re-involving your old designer who had timing issues will only make things that much worse and cost you more money/time in both the short/long term plan.

I would recommend you spend your time trying to get your cPanel Login information for Harold or Elwira to work with. Your designer may have included a link to this by using yourdomainname.com/cpanel or yourdomainname.com:2083 or they may have also mentioned it is your FTP Credentials which would normally be the first 8 characters of your domain name.

[Wozcreative]

I would suggest that right now you do not make any changes. Work on obtaining all login information necessary and then work with Harold and Elwira (Is this a Forum Member?)

Hahah yes it is! ;) Nice to meet you! (It's ok, i take it you have not been to my site)

Anyway I was right in not taking the project on earlier for SEO as I have experience knowing that sites that are built by most other developers are a mess... I was right.

I do believe though that if Harold takes the project on to correct all the issues that you are in good hands! I don't know how he plans to tackle it, but I would suggest to just re-create the existing site in a new wordpress install and then add all the missing SEO standards and modifying call to actions. But that's up to Harold to decide on what he thinks is best as I haven't seen what Paul did to the back end.

[huggytree]

I may want to make some changes at this point....if its got to be rebuilt it may as well have an even more improved design.......the design I have now is really working well for customers, but I want to add more of a unique brand to it

Harold has agreed to help me.

my original designer emailed me a link and I have all the log in info from him(originally)....its probably easiest to skip the latest guy and Start over with the original version.....im on a good speaking basis with both designers....no bridges are burned

[MyITGuy]

Hahah yes it is! ;) Nice to meet you! (It's ok, i take it you have not been to my site)
I could've sworn I visited your site awhile back...but I guess I missed the name in the title and footer sections :(

[snooder]

I would stay away from SEO firms at first. you might want to join an affiliate network. It might be 6,000 just to register with them but you get some of the best marketers out there. you might want to give a high commission at first and then when you have enough business and buzz, lower it. The other option is to rent out a websites that has the rankings already. virtual real estate is GREAT!!! because it's like moving into a furnished apartment. When you rent a website with rankings all you have to do is make sure they change the phone number and other stuff like photos, some minimal content. No more waiting for false promises from SEO firms. The only company i know doing this is Rent My Rankings. Oh and for affiliate network I would go with Commission junction





Now that the website is finally done im moving into the next phase and hiring someone for SEO

the designer is giving me 1 month free and admits to not knowing enough(even though when I hired him for the website he said he knew) he is asking for free advice from a friend of his who is a SEO expert

So it looks like it may be better to hire someone who specializes in it

Woz gave me a lead on one and im in the process of vetting him

how much should I expect to pay for SEO?

when I was deciding on which web designer to go with I was given estimates of $300-800 a month

right now im getting a measly 1-2% of my sales from my website...my goal is 20% (my 2013 gross is $525,000 and internet sales for 2013 are a whopping $8,500(in 2012 they were $16,000 with the exact same website)

if I can make $100,000 a year extra I have no issues with paying $800 a month for SEO......id rather pay more to get more

what do I need to know to make my decision on who to hire?

[Brian Altenhofel]

I could've sworn I visited your site awhile back...but I guess I missed the name in the title and footer sections :(

Same here. I think I've become blind to headers and footers.