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Spider
08-09-2008, 02:27 PM
Wow!

Already, we have 38 members and 730+ posts. All in a couple of days!

Well done, everyone!

vangogh
08-09-2008, 03:15 PM
Thanks Frederick. We've slowed down a bit as far as new members since it's the weekend, but so far I'd say our first few days have been a success.

What I think has been especially great is the level of the discussions we've been having. There aren't a lot of threads yet, but what's in those threads is really good.

I think everyone here deserves a round of applause for contributing as they have and I want to offer a very sincere thank you to all who have been participating so far. Your efforts are very much appreciated. Thanks.

cbscreative
08-09-2008, 03:30 PM
Amen, I second that. It's the community that made this happen, and the quality of posts is awesome which is far more important than numbers. This forum is definitely back on track.

KristineS
08-09-2008, 04:34 PM
We definitely have a lot of good people here with a lot of valuable knowledge to share. I'm confident this forum will become a very valuable resource quite quickly.

Paul Elliott
08-09-2008, 07:42 PM
I just Tweeted about the forum on Twitter. That may help the traffic.

Paul

vangogh
08-09-2008, 08:10 PM
Thanks Paul. Hopefully a few people will find their way over.

Leatherneck
08-09-2008, 09:36 PM
This reminds me how the old forum was when I first joined that several years ago. A lot of nice professional people trying too share there knowledge and learn from others also. :D

vangogh
08-09-2008, 10:25 PM
Too bad it wasn't kept up that way. Oh well. Their loss is our gain.

orion_joel
08-10-2008, 08:40 AM
It should be good a lot of valuable content will be ready for the search engine robots, and once they pick it up should see a boost as well, hopefully.

KristineS
08-10-2008, 09:28 AM
That would be awesome too. I know both Vangogh and I have blogged about the forum as well. And we're both mentioned it on Plurk.

Spider
08-10-2008, 10:17 AM
On this score - I don't think the search engines will find us in a hurry until we have a good page title. At the moment, our page title for the search engines is almost identical to the old forum. In fact neither have a HTML meta tag <title> only a title in style sheets. Maybe one overrides the other, not sure, but this I know - as of 10 seconds ago, Google didn't place sbf.com or sbf. net on the first page but #1 position for "small business forum" was sbf.org - and they have an html <title>

I would suggest this is a priority.

vangogh
08-10-2008, 01:44 PM
Frederick the search engines have already found us. At least Google and Yahoo both have. It'll take time before we rank well. There are a lot of small business forums out there and we're likely the newest. The best thing people can do to help is just keep posting and starting new threads and if possible link back to the forum, both the home page and individual posts.

We may never be #1 for the query small business forum. Other sites have an inherent advantage based on their domain name, but we'll be fine as the forum grows.

cbscreative
08-10-2008, 02:54 PM
We may never be #1 for the query small business forum. Other sites have an inherent advantage based on their domain name, but we'll be fine as the forum grows.
Bah! What kind of optimism is that? Seriously, I think we might in time. If the old SBF continues to let their Spam problem go out of control, it will hurt them. One thing I feel we will do for sure, maybe even soon: We will get page 1 results.

Paul Elliott
08-10-2008, 03:17 PM
The best thing people can do to help is just keep posting and starting new threads and if possible link back to the forum, both the home page and individual posts.

Steve, do you know if tweets on twitter serve the back link purpose? Twitter uses a URL abbreviation via "tiny."

Paul

vangogh
08-10-2008, 05:52 PM
I think Twitter links are nofollowed, but don't hold me to that. They end up appearing now on so many site pulling twitter info that some likely count along the way.

Just being realistic Steve. At the moment Google places heavy emphasis on domain age and trust and it'll be awhile before we earn that. Even once we get some there are a lot of other small business forums already ahead of us on the pecking order.

It's not to say we'll never get there, but more to say that we should make that our sole focus. Forums pick up most of their traffic through long tail phrases which we will get once more of our pages have been indexed. The more threads and posts we have here the more search traffic we'll eventually get.

Somewhere along the way we will earn the trust of search engines and will start ranking better for the main 'small business forum' query. But we don't need to rank #1 for the phrase in order to do very well with search traffic.

cbscreative
08-10-2008, 06:41 PM
Yeah, and once we get to the #1 spot, we get more Spam too. Except by then, we might have a subscription fee to discourage those who would otherwise Spam us.

vangogh
08-10-2008, 06:46 PM
It's inevitable we'll get spam, but it's not that hard to deal with. You just need to have moderators paying attention and deleting it.

Spider
08-10-2008, 07:29 PM
It's inevitable we'll get spam, but it's not that hard to deal with. You just need to have moderators paying attention and deleting it.And members reporting it.

I am not so dismissive of the importance of a title. I am of the opinion that a page's title is the most important aspect in SERPS positioning. Especially on Google. And we don't have an html page title!

cbscreative
08-10-2008, 08:06 PM
Spider, since we (vangogh and I) are both very well familiar with SEO, I have no argument. In fact, we will deal with issues like this as we have opportunity. But your comment about members reporting Spam is a point I wanted to make too. Big time Amen! We count on members repoting this stuff. So far, we've not had a problem with this because we're not yet highly visible to search engines. But as we are more visible, I for one want to be sure the Spammers are kept at bay.

Whether we initiate paid membership or some other means, I have no intention of seeing this new SBF being tolerant of Spam. They may try to Spam us because their existence is so miserable they have nothing better to do, but their efforts will be wasted here because none of us want their sludge, and it won't last long if it does get posted. Everyone reporting it will help us keep this place clean so we can all enjoy a forum where Spam is not tolerated at all.

Paul Elliott
08-10-2008, 09:49 PM
I think Twitter links are nofollowed, but don't hold me to that. They end up appearing now on so many site pulling twitter info that some likely count along the way.

Thank you, Steve. Do you know if the same applies to Plurk?

Paul

billbenson
08-10-2008, 10:35 PM
Steve is the report spam tested and working?

I've never installed or managed a forum, but it strikes me that it wouldn't be to hard to modify forum software so posts that are reported by say 3 know users are sent to post purgatory until reviewed by a moderator. Spam comes more frequently on the weekends and late when spammers feel that the mods aren't as likely to be around.

cbscreative
08-10-2008, 11:20 PM
Good question, bill. Right now, I can't say that is tested since we have so many other issues to address and so far, Spam has not been an issue, but we will be reviewing anything of this nature since search engine position also brings in Spam as a natural result. One thing I do know since I am deeply involved here: we will address the Spam issue and paid membership is up for consideration. As long as I am here, and since vangogh was pretty much the only Spam patrol on the old SBF I know he's also committed, the Spammers will not be allowed to take control here.

If the Report Spam feature turns out to be one of our glitches, we will resolve the issue. And we will eliminate the 60 second posting rule is it exists. Your paricipation is greatly appreciated, and if there are any barriers to that, I want them gone. Having been on the user end with no control over this stuff, I can say that one of the things we want to eliminate is that sense of helplessness.

I've not tested the Report Spam feature, but we will seek to assure that everything is working, especially those things like Report Spam that help us keep the scourge from spoiling what we have here.

I like your idea of 3 reports sending a post to Purgatory, especially if we grant priority reporting privileges to certain members. This is a great idea for future settings to consider. Anything that helps us keep this place free of Spam (especially to expedite the process) is something I am interested in considering.

vangogh
08-10-2008, 11:38 PM
@Paul - I think Plurk links may still be followed, but again don't hold me to that. I imagine if they are at some point they won't be.

@Frederick - The pages do have <titles> They just aren't in the place where you might be looking. vBulletin is putting them lower down in the head section, but they are there.

@Bill - the report spam button is on. Since we haven't had any spam no one's reported any. Hard to know if it is working, but it's there. I'll have to look into settings to see if a certain number of reports automatically cans a post. I doubt it would be a setting, but maybe it's been coded as an addon.

I know the old forum got out of control with spam, but that was mostly because I was the only one moderating for a long time and I couldn't spend all day on the forum. We already have 3 people here who can delete spam and as we grow and need more people to help we'll ask members if they want to moderate.

Like it or not every site online attracts spam once it becomes visible. There are automated solutions to fighting it and any that make sense we'll add, but the best way to fight spam is simply for people to report it and the mods to delete it.

Spider
08-11-2008, 09:16 AM
I think paid membership was mentioned elsewhere but I can't find it - so I will comment here as it is in discussion here.

Although paid membership may stop spammers, it will also stop new members. No matter how low a price, there is a culture on the net that everyhing should be free, especially things like discussion boards. "There are so many other free places to go - why should I pay for this one?" (And they'll click away faster than you can answer the question.)

I think charging to be a member would have more limiting effect on the board than spam. I can understand there being a desire for income in return for all the hard work the administrators are doing but I think that can be better achieved by offering and charging for add-on services and special privileges and advertising. But these things won't stop the spammers.

Also consider the effect of price. A price that is too low will suggest the place is not worth joining and a price set too high will say much trhe same thing. Although any proce at all will limit membership. In addition, any price may even encourage spammers, thinking the membership dues entitle them to spam!

Consider this, too. If you charge for membership, you are tilting the membership towards the inexperienced and unknowledgeable end of the scale, because some experienced and knowledgeable people will say, "I'm not learning anything. The forum is full of newbies and all I am doing is educating my competition." I've already heard from an experienced and knowledgeable businessowner, when speaking of the old forum, describe it as 'lightweight' in terms of business information. Not that he thought there was no useful information to be had but that it was buried beneath too much advice for and from newbies."

Perhaps a membership fee would work if you vetted members and only accepted members who were experienced, or somehow maintained a balance of expereiced and inexperienced business owners. And I have no idea how you could do that.

KristineS
08-11-2008, 11:11 AM
There are always levels to membership. I have seen several forums where the forum itself is free to use for everyone. There are however, certain services and privileges that are offered via paid membership. If you value those services and privileges (i.e. more storage for photos etc.) you pay the fee. If not, you don't. The fee is never imposed on the exchange of information, it is placed on additional optional services that won't impact the basic user experience.

KarenB
08-11-2008, 11:40 AM
There are always levels to membership. I have seen several forums where the forum itself is free to use for everyone. There are however, certain services and privileges that are offered via paid membership. If you value those services and privileges (i.e. more storage for photos etc.) you pay the fee. If not, you don't. The fee is never imposed on the exchange of information, it is placed on additional optional services that won't impact the basic user experience.

Yes, Kristine. Several of my virtual assistant (VA) forums are free to everyone, but only those members who pay a nominal fee have access to bid on RFPs (requests for proposals) for example.

vangogh
08-11-2008, 12:08 PM
Frederick I don't want to see the forum go to a fully paid subscription either. I think we should always have a free and open place to get together and share like we have been.

I'm not opposed to adding a paid subscription level on top of the free forum though. We'd have to decide what to offer in a paid forum to make it worth paying for.

But it's important to me that the main forum remain free as it always has. We'll probably need to add some advertising before long to cover the bills, but I'd rather not charge people for coming here and contributing.

cbscreative
08-11-2008, 12:42 PM
Paid membership is a ways off if it happens at all. If it does happen, browsing the forum will always be free. The paid membership would have tangible benefits such as discounts on software (example only and I mean multiple benefits not just one). It will have to be something that directly interests and benefits a business person.

Paul Elliott
08-11-2008, 02:09 PM
Thank you for allowing me to EDIT my posts at any time.

Not in frequently I find some error, e.g, misspelling, typo, or horrible grammar, 1 or more days later. With the current freedom, I can go in and correct my foolish appearance before the entire world notices. :o

After ull, a copy righter shuld be abel to due beter!

Paul

Paul Elliott
08-11-2008, 02:18 PM
There are always levels to membership. I have seen several forums where the forum itself is free to use for everyone. There are however, certain services and privileges that are offered via paid membership. If you value those services and privileges (i.e. more storage for photos etc.) you pay the fee. If not, you don't. The fee is never imposed on the exchange of information, it is placed on additional optional services that won't impact the basic user experience.

Kristine, this is a very valuable business model. Always overdeliver. You never try to put a fence around your customers. You merely offer them a "gated community."

Then they behave like men . . . when we're ready to be fenced, we'll walk willingly to the altar . . . no shotgun needed. :eek:

It's a Texas thang, Ma'am! :D :cool:

Paul

cbscreative
08-11-2008, 02:36 PM
Thank you for allowing me to EDIT my posts at any time.
You're welcome, Paul. To be honest though, this can be easily abused which is why it's usually set on a time limit with most forums (I noticed we had it set this way). Unfortunately, I doubt we'll be able to keep it this way, so I recommend proofing. It's for the good of the community too. Imagine, if you took the time to respond to a post, and one of these culprits made you wish you hadn't by editing the post later to be very different. This has caused problems on other forums, including the old SBF.

vangogh
08-11-2008, 02:42 PM
There should be a time limit on the edits set. I think I placed it at 24 hours, which should give you enough time to correct the most egregious things. You may have to live with typos after a time.

The reason for the time limit is some people decide days, weeks, and months later to delete all their posts and if the thread has had a conversation going it usually tends to make the whole thread useless.

After a time if a post needs editing you'll have to ask a moderator, though I hope you won't ask us to fix typos. That will overwhelm us quickly.

Paul Elliott
08-11-2008, 03:38 PM
The reason for the time limit is some people decide days, weeks, and months later to delete all their posts and if the thread has had a conversation going it usually tends to make the whole thread useless.

After a time if a post needs editing you'll have to ask a moderator, though I hope you won't ask us to fix typos. That will overwhelm us quickly.

OIC. I've not done enough Forum work to see the potential for abuse. I'll just try to be more careful. :p

vangogh
08-11-2008, 04:02 PM
It doesn't happen often. There's a webmaster forum where I admin and sometimes people will start a thread and then get mad at the responses and just start deleting every one of their posts.

I've seen some people come back years later and want to delete their posting history too. It's strange. I don't expect it will happen here, but figured we should still put that 24 hour limit on things.

billbenson
08-11-2008, 05:17 PM
There is a forum where you were :) a moderator that seems to have deleted some of your posts as well.

On a serious note, I think 10 minutes to 30 min is fine. I have asked a mod to delete a link or something like that after a while, but spelling I usually catch real quick or not at all unless someone else decides to make a joke of it.

To much potential for abuse if the times are longer and I remember several instances of that on the old forum.

Spider
08-11-2008, 05:42 PM
...To be honest though, this [longterm editing] can be easily abused which is why it's usually set on a time limit with most forums (I noticed we had it set this way). Unfortunately, I doubt we'll be able to keep it this way, so I recommend proofing. It's for the good of the community too. Imagine, if you took the time to respond to a post, and one of these culprits made you wish you hadn't by editing the post later to be very different. This has caused problems on other forums, including the old SBF.Which is why it is recommended and indeed so easy to quote the person to whom you are responding. They may want to edit their own post but they cannot edit your post. In fact, all the forum in which I participate allow full-time edits and SBF was the only one that didn't. I think it is better to be able to edit one's own post at any time--

a) It's my message and I should have the right to change what I say. Especially on a medium that ostensibly lasts forever.

b) Take away that right and people may hesitate to say what they feel, thus curbing the conversation. I know I will post less if I am to be resricted in that fashion.

c) I agree that I have no right to post here, that it is a privilege which I appreciate, but I should have the right to withdraw something I said.

d) If I am referring to something specific that another person said, I should quote them exactly so their words are embodied in my post, and it is encumbent upon me to make sure that anyone quoting me, does so accurately. I encourage everyone to use the quote function more.

I see no benefit in preventing us from editing our own posts. My vote is definitely for us to be able to edit our posts at any time. I would also ask that we be allowed to delete our posts, if we want. I believe that vB has a setting that to delete the original post in a thread deletes the whole thread, and I would recommend against that.

vangogh
08-11-2008, 07:13 PM
Actually once you post your message it belongs to the forum. The issue is when people go back in and change things to alter their meaning long after other people have developed a conversation about the post. It's easy to render entire threads useless by changing your own post.

24 hours is ample time to edit things. That shouldn't inhibit you from posting. It should make you choose your words more carefully. True the medium essentially lasts forever, which is why you shouldn't just post without knowing what you're saying.

Now having said all the above there are certainly cases where you want to change something you said with good reason. In those cases just ask a mod who'll likely then make the change for you.

As for someone quoting you before you edit your own post it's irrelevant since the quote wouldn't change. Your original words would still be there and you wouldn't be able to change them.

I've seen people going back into their posts months later and delete them all rendering many threads entirely useless. I've seen people attack other people and then remove the evidence after they've been reported. I've seen people create legit links in posts and later go back and add an affiliate id that breaks the rules at a time when it would likely get less notice.

You might not see the benefits, but there are a lot of good reasons to put limits on how long you can edit your own posts.

Most of the forums I belong to have limits on how long you can change edit your own posts and this one is going to as well.

billbenson
08-11-2008, 07:19 PM
Spider, take a situation which happened on the prior forum. Poster plagiarized information from other copyrighted sources and posted it as his own. He was discovered weeks later and went back and altered his original post.

Also, when you post here, or anywhere, you should be aware that the post is the copyrighted property of the site, not yours.

As far as quoting goes, I could easily wrap you prior post in quote tags and alter it. Maybe you would notice it, maybe you don't.

That being said, most quality forum monitors will edit your post for you as an established member.

hmmm. This is an edit. VG beat me to the punch.

cbscreative
08-11-2008, 07:22 PM
For everyone who uses the forum honestly, they should have the right to edit, but since I have seen the privilege get abused, I thnk the time limit is prudent. Once the time limit expires, then clarifying in another post is always an option. Also, keep in mind that not only can you be quoted in another post (I do this myself to guarantee the integrity), other forums, sites, or blogs may have the post republished (sometimes very quickly). Editing later won't necessarily serve any useful purpose. The bottom line is, proof it right away and move on from there. Once you post, a permanent record likely exists somewhere.

cbscreative
08-11-2008, 07:28 PM
Bill, the situation you described is one example I had in mind, and it makes a good case for why we have the time limit. When caught in the act, the plagiarizer tried to edit his post claiming that he gave proper credit to the source. That was an edit and not a part of the original post.

I should also mention that this particular offender was busted on other forums for doing the same thing.

vangogh
08-11-2008, 07:53 PM
I recently received a PM at another forum where I admin by a member who hadn't been around in awhile. He was in court for one reason or another and asked we delete all of his posts. I don't know why he was in court, but that kind of stuff shouldn't be allowed to be deleted after the fact.

Truth is other than not being able to fix up typos you noticed a few weeks later there isn't any reason you need to be editing old posts.

Paul Elliott
08-11-2008, 08:14 PM
It doesn't happen often. There's a webmaster forum where I admin and sometimes people will start a thread and then get mad at the responses and just start deleting every one of their posts.

Well . . . what if a person gets an answer he doesn't like???!! :mad: :rolleyes:


I've seen some people come back years later and want to delete their posting history too. It's strange. I don't expect it will happen here, but figured we should still put that 24 hour limit on things.

. . . What if a person shoots off his mouth and later repents???!! :p

. . . Ah, but such is life on or off the Fora. :D

Paul <extracting tongue from cheek>

vangogh
08-11-2008, 08:38 PM
Funny Paul. It's amazing what some people do and some think is ok for them to do.

To me I like leaving the history of my posts as they are. Sometimes I look back on something I said a couple of years ago and wonder what I was thinking, but I said it and don't mind it being there. I want people get to know me based on the totality of the things I say and not any single message.

Paul Elliott
08-11-2008, 09:33 PM
Steve, thank you for the privilege of your experience and wisdom.

BTW, if you have a last name, what is it?

Paul

vangogh
08-11-2008, 09:37 PM
You can call me Steven Bradley, though Steve by itself is fine.

Spider
08-11-2008, 11:21 PM
...Also, when you post here, or anywhere, you should be aware that the post is the copyrighted property of the site, not yours....
Is that correct? Not being snippy, but can you point me to where it says that officially? I didn't notice it in the forum rules just formulated so maybe it says that somewhere else. If it is not yet stated, I take it that it will be eventually. Fine, but I wonder how that plays with the rule that says, "There is an exception though [to no posting of articles]. If you are a member in good standing and you are looking for honest advice or help with something to fine tune it before publication, no problem." Would one then lose one's copyright in the article by posting it here for 'honest advice'?

This concerns me because, besides being a business coach, I am an author and may want to take one or some or all of my posts here and compile them into an article or even include them in a book. Would I be in breach of *your* copyright (or SBF.net's copyright) if I was to do that with what I would have otherwise called "my material"?

vangogh
08-11-2008, 11:54 PM
When content first appears on any site that site owns the copyright unless otherwise stated. I think you're trying too hard to find fault with things over the copyright stuff. No one here is going to take you to court if you posted an article asking us to review it and then published it. The point Bill was making is that your typical posts belong to the forum once you post. That's how it works on every forum where you post unless it's been specified otherwise.

When Steve wrote the rules he was being informal and saying we'd rather people don't post articles as threads. Most of the time when people do that it's an article they copied from another source which isn't something we want to see. However we also don't want people thinking they can't post something if they want us to look at it.

If you're concerned don't post an article for review. Post a link to the article on your own site.

Spider
08-12-2008, 12:04 AM
When content first appears on any site that site owns the copyright unless otherwise stated. I think you're trying too hard to find fault with things over the copyright stuff....Not trying to find fault, VG - not even suggesting there is any fault to be found. I'm simply trying to clarify.

My concern is not the article posted but taking writing that I might post here and subsequently compile it into the chapter of a book. Or, if I post a lot over many months or years making a book out of my posts. Would I be in breach of your (SBF's) copyright by doing that?

Not whether you would sue me or not, only would I be in breach, in your opinion?

vangogh
08-12-2008, 12:16 AM
I'm not a lawyer and I'm not going to attempt to define copyright law here.

My understanding is that if you post something here the forum owns the copyright on the content. My guess (and it is a guess) is the forum would have more legal right to turn your posts into a book than you would.

But again I'm not a lawyer. Nothing I say should be taken as legal gospel. I'm just offering my opinion based on what I've read online.

If you need legal clarification I'd suggest consulting with an attorney. I can't provide that kind of clarification.

Spider
08-12-2008, 12:46 AM
My understanding is that the copyright would always rest with the writer unless there was something agreed to the contrary - like a purchase of the written piece, or written terms of service which would include forum rules, I believe. So, as you would be instrumental in the writing of TOS and rules for this site, your opinion is extremely important at this juncture.

Thank you for stating it clearly.

billbenson
08-12-2008, 11:06 AM
Spider, why not simply put it on a page on your own website before posting it here. I don't think you would even need to link to it but you might want to. I'm not a lawyer either but I think where it was posted first would supersede the post here.

This is a subject that comes up on webmaster forums from time to time. I have definitely seen responses by copyright attorneys stating that what something is placed on a website it is copyrighted at that time.

Say you did a blog about your travels through Africa. If you put it on blogger.com, they own it. If you put it on a blog site you own, its yours. Take a different example. Say a woman posts bikini photo on a dating site. They own that photo unless she had posted it on her site prior to that or had otherwise copyrighted it.

Like I said, I'm not an attorney, and for true legal advice you should talk to one, but I have seen a number of posts by attorneys on this subject.

cbscreative
08-12-2008, 11:49 AM
My new book containing all of Spider's posts is almost complete. If all goes well, I may be doing a national tour with book signing later this year. I will announce the details as soon as I have them. :D

Spider
08-12-2008, 12:25 PM
My new book containing all of Spider's posts is almost complete. If all goes well, I may be doing a national tour with book signing later this year. I will announce the details as soon as I have them. :DThen it must be a very thin book, indeed! Wait 'til next year and we'll do a joint tour.