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Thread: White hat and Black hat SEO??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold Mansfield View Post
    Smartest blackhat scheme in the history of the internet, Shawn Hogan, EBAY and cookie stuffing. Now facing federal prison and restitution of $28 million in affiliate payouts. At the time that was seen as "real blackhat" stuff.

    It's not worth it.
    That wasn't blackhat, that was affilate scams and hacking. Blackhat is an SEO thing, and he didn't get that due to blackhat. He was misleading people on products, and lying about services, hacking into people's sites, tracking people, and selling the info... Oh also taking down people's site's. I knew him back in the day via a forum, I didn't agree with him, but it wasn't blackhat that did anything to him. Hacking isn't SEO, you can use hacks to get SEO things done sure. Although, that was like 4-6 years ago. Today blackhat isn't anything like that.

    Also, what the media says is blackhat most likely isn't. He was loading cookies up with longer lasting power for affiliate sales. Affiliate cookies mostly last for a 30 or 60 days. SEO blackhat isn't hacking. Two different things, two different aspects of the game.

    Also, blackhat is not illegal. It's about putting links on places like purevolume.com(cough profiles cough), and getting link juice from a authority site like that. It's about gaming the system in a way that is not natural.

    However, I wouldn't suggest it to anyone if you don't know what your doing. I also, wouldn't hire someone that doesn't know what these things are, or won't tell you where they place their links.
    Last edited by HeadStartSEO; 07-04-2013 at 10:58 PM.

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  3. #12
    Rockin' the Casbah Array Harold Mansfield's Avatar
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    If it's not illegal, against the rules or trickery in any way, then there is no problem.
    I'm just against shortcuts and gaming the system in any way. I'd rather do it the right way and just put in the work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold Mansfield View Post
    If it's not illegal, against the rules or trickery in any way, then there is no problem.
    I'm just against shortcuts and gaming the system in any way. I'd rather do it the right way and just put in the work.

    I agree, I'm simply saying any work is likely to be gray or blackhat. White hat is mostly natural, or creating hype about a company. Today, I don't know of any SEO company that can truly do all white hat in Google's eyes. Today it seems like even guest posting isn't a good idea to them. Look at Distilled SEO, they recently got caught doing some blackhat and gray hat stuff. That's a huge company, some say the number one company out there.

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    One thing I'd add is that some "blackhat" techniques actually target competitor sites in an attempt to sabatoge their rankings. So blackhat SEO is not victimless, and can cause real damage to legitimate businesses. So I'll just reiterate that you should be very careful about who you hire to handle your SEO efforts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimr451 View Post
    One thing I'd add is that some "blackhat" techniques actually target competitor sites in an attempt to sabatoge their rankings. So blackhat SEO is not victimless, and can cause real damage to legitimate businesses. So I'll just reiterate that you should be very careful about who you hire to handle your SEO efforts.

    -Jim
    I think we're all using the term blackhat very loose here. Sabatoge SEO isn't completely different than using blackhat SEO. Sabatoge is more about spamming things Google already noted can cause problems for a site. Blackhat is about getting away with things, and if you search your payday loan stuff it still works at times. Most people just don't know about the real blackhat stuff. I'm talking about 30+ tiered networks costing $200,000 plus, kind like how Disney has for their publishing sites. Do some research on their links for "casserole", on their media sites. (not Disney world, but their media sites they own).

    I think the problem I'm having here the most, is there marketing, and real deal stuff. Most of the views here seem defined through an marketing view point than in reality. I don't mean to sound hash, but I think this is why most people are so confused with SEO these days. Techie people like ourselves read a bit about SEO, and say hey I know a bit about that, and give advice.

    I've seen sites still using the old blackhat stuff and still ranking, ie look at the car donation niche, or even payday loans. I've seen sites ranking for years with this stuff. I don't teach this kind of stuff, nor do I do this for clients. However, SEO and search in general is a risk game. It all is depending on how much risk you want to take on, and not take. Even natural sites get hit, and some spammy ones don't. Blog networks still work, and so does comments on good sites. These still work if you're smart, but maybe not spammy like Sabotage SEO needs to be to work.

    Sabotage SEO is ordering like 100,000 links all in one day on a site, blackhats would never do that less they are mindless people. People doing Sabotage SEO are doing mindless spamming for the sack of doing it mindlessly, so they can get hit a trigger with Google.

    It all depends on the site too, if you have like 100 amazing useful links, you can get away with 10 bad links maybe. If you try to Sabotage a site that has a amazing link profile, and has around 100,000 links already. Your Sabotage SEO is going to have to in the millions of links to affect them.

    If you were to listen to Moz, or Google Web Spam team, every guy with a plumbing company would be making videos on how to do things you pay them to handle. Writing post about bathroom things you wouldn't wanna read in the first place.( Gross I know).

    SEO natural, or not is a game about risk.

    I hope that helps everyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HeadStartSEO View Post
    I've seen sites still using the old blackhat stuff and still ranking, ie look at the car donation niche, or even payday loans. I've seen sites ranking for years with this stuff. I don't teach this kind of stuff, nor do I do this for clients. However, SEO and search in general is a risk game. It all is depending on how much risk you want to take on, and not take. Even natural sites get hit, and some spammy ones don't. Blog networks still work, and so does comments on good sites. These still work if you're smart, but maybe not spammy like Sabotage SEO needs to be to work.
    That's interesting. I suppose it takes time to catch up with all the black hat SEOs? I feel like even if they've devalued the current black hat tactics, those SEOs would find something new to game the system.

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    Ever since I interviewed Aaron Wall a few years ago, search engine optimization has seemed much less mystical to me.

    When you break it down to it's most simplistic forms, all this conversation about black hat and white hat, is just smoke and diversion for the average small business owner serving a local marketplace - such as the plumber, hairdresser, retail store or restaurant.

    Concentrate on providing your web designer good content to work with (or hiring writers who can deliver that content) and delivering the best service/products to your customers and the marketing will start taking care of itself through word of mouth if you are good at what you do and augment it with offline efforts...

    They don't need to game the system or play around with more than the very basics to drive the appropriate type of eyeballs to their pages.

    Come to think of it, many of the people I know who serve an international market and are making money at it don't put much beyond a token effort into SEO - preferring to utilize networks and list building/marketing to bring eyeballs to their pages - much less effort (if you're doing your own) and much cheaper (if you're hiring it out)...

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    Member With Stressed Keyboard Array OlegLola's Avatar
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    Have you heard about gray hat SEO?
    This technique is more hazardous than white hat SEO, but unlike black hat it has less chances to be banned by search engines. Still gray hat SEO is questionable, but I think you can try it without running so great risk while using black.
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    White Hat: Building links the old traditional way, placing links manually in blog comments, guest posts, forum signatures, social networking pages, bookmarking websites, etc. Using unique, helpful and rich content that add value to users.

    Black Hat: Using tools to place these links on websites, like auto blog commenters, forum spam, etc.

    However, Black Hat isn't just about automation. There are also blog networks, paid links, etc. Good Black Hat is actually HARD to be spotted by search engines, when there are no footprints left. For instance, posting on different websites with different IPs, C blocks, nameservers, etc.

    And yeah, always go for White Hat because the risk is minimal compared to Black Hat. You never know when Google is going to penalize you, even if you get some Google Love for some time.

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    There's also Grey-Hat SEO, Black-hat is not illegal, manipulating the search engines and hacking into corporate data centers to get peoples social security numbers are two very different things (as with black-hat hacking). Black-hat SEO is something that Google frowns upon, they don't want spammy sites showing up in there results, which makes perfect sense because people would just not use Google if everytime someone looked up "alice in wonderland" and they clicked on a porn site called "alice in wonderland", lol.

    On a more serious note, big companies do use black hat techniques sometimes and they caught too and Google demotes their sites, search for "JC penny search manipulation". So there will always be companies and people who try to manipulate the SE's and whenever Google combats this type of thing, the Black-hatters change tactics and figure something else out, its a cat-n-mouse game - same as with hackers and code. Unless you really know what you are doing, I would stick to the white-hat methods - sometimes the line can be blurry, this blur is grey-hat.
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