any small business guys offended? [Archive]

MyITGuy

08-29-2012, 09:22 PM

So you built the interstate, rail way, and trucking systems that bring plumbing supplies to your local distributor? I had no idea.

Huggy, you base your decisions on pure propaganda which is put out by both parties and every special interest in the country and probably foreign countries trying to affect the US elections. There have been some outrageous positions put out there by using pieces of articles or quotes out of context.

Agreed! I wasn't offended and just contributed again to Obama this month to hopefully offset Huggy's.

Here's a portion of the speech in the even you want to review it:

We’ve already made a trillion dollars’ worth of cuts. We can make some more cuts in programs that don’t work, and make government work more efficiently…We can make another trillion or trillion-two, and what we then do is ask for the wealthy to pay a little bit more …

There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me, because they want to give something back. They know they didn’t -look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something – there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there.

If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business. you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen.

The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don’t do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.

So we say to ourselves, ever since the founding of this country, you know what, there are some things we do better together. That’s how we funded the GI Bill. That’s how we created the middle class. That’s how we built the Golden Gate Bridge or the Hoover Dam. That’s how we invented the Internet. That’s how we sent a man to the moon. We rise or fall together as one nation and as one people, and that’s the reason I’m running for president – because I still believe in that idea. You’re not on your own, we’re in this together.”

Steve B

08-29-2012, 09:30 PM

huggytree

08-30-2012, 08:14 AM

No, I wasn't offended because I was smart enough to listen the whole thing in context. It was extremely clear (actually it was explicit) that he was refering to roads, bridges, the internet, and the word's greatest economy structure. You really need to change your TV station once in a while so you can hear a less biased view of the world. Since all stations will have a bias to some degree, I would suggest watching three or four and determining your own reality.

all stations are bias...100% of them....i listened to it 3 or 4x....even pulled it up for the wife on the internet...she said 'it couldnt be true' when i originally told her...

you think your smarter? a lot of people are smart
you think you worked harder? a lot of people work hard

what do those 2 lines of his have to do with the roads and bridges....he talked about roads/bridged...true....but that wasnt what it was about.

i actually doubled my contribution again when he picked Paul Ryan

when it comes to business I AM SMARTER and I WORK HARDER than most people

billbenson

08-30-2012, 11:55 PM

when it comes to business I AM SMARTER and I WORK HARDER than most people
I believe you are smart and work hard, just like many others today and in the past.

Why you are offended by someone stating that is beyond me.

nealrm

08-31-2012, 12:37 AM

Yes I was offended and I was smart enough to read the whole thing in context. It clearly downplayed the role of those that build businesses, those that worked hard and took risks. It was akin to tell the New York Giants they didn't win the super bowl because they didn't plant the grass in the stadium or that the Olympic gold metal winners didn't really win their event because they didn't walk to the stadium and instead took a plane. His quote was very, very clear "If you’ve got a business. you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. In his own words, he truly believes that those who made the business are not deserving of it, that others are responsible for it coming into being. Unfortunately, this fits into his reoccurring theme that those that create wealth, don't deserve it. That the wealth should be redistributed to others that didn't work as hard, didn't seek out and take advantages of opportunities, that didn't take risks, that didn't lived within their means, that chose to play today instead of working for tomorrow. He wants to take away from those that created this unbelievable American system that we have and give it to those that didn't.

Yes, we all rely on road, bridges, schools and other infrastructure to do our business. All of these are supported through taxes and fees. Taxes and fees that are paid predominantly by those that create wealth. Taxes and fees that the wealth creators pay well in excess of what they use. Taxes and fees that will disappear if the wealth is redistributed to those that don't create wealth. Taxes and fees that will disappear if the incentives to create and build are demolished because the rewards are taken away and given to others. Without these taxes and fees, the roads, bridges, schools and other infrastructure will crumble.

Obama keeps talking about the wealth creators paying their fair share. I have yet to find the dictionary that has a definition of fair that fits his usage. Currently we have 50% of the population that basically don't pay income taxes. Another 40% that pays less than 30% and the remaining 70+% is paid by only 10% of the population. Then he states that those tax payers that are paying for a majority of the public infrastructure don't really deserve the income they are being taxed on because they didn't really create it, somebody else did.

So yes I was offended, I was very offended.

Steve B

08-31-2012, 06:23 AM

There are lots of legitimate reasons to love or hate any particular candidate. I just don't see the reason why it's necessary to choose to distort the meaning of one particular speach. The entire speech was clearly about recognizing that there are other things involved in a business being successful than just being smart and working hard. The sentiment is consistent with speeches other successful people (including athletes) have given when they give credit to the many others that helped contribute to their success. Think of all the award shows and how long those speeches get because they want to thank everybody under the sun.

The other side is just as guilty with their use of the small portion of Romney's answer to a question when he said "corporations are people too". When the entire response is heard, the meaning of that particular line is significantly different. It's just a shame that politicians feel they have to boil everything down to sound bites. It's even worse when they are knowingly distorted, or taken out of context in such a way that it changes the meaning.

But, again, no I'm not offended at the concept of recognizing that others have contributed to the success of my businesses. I can't imagine starting my businesses in any other country where the infrastructure and general economic climate would have made it much more difficult, if not impossible. I can still be proud of my own contributions to my success as well.

nealrm

08-31-2012, 09:33 AM

I also would not be offended by recognizing that other have contributed to the success of my business. Should I ever be in a position to give a speech about my business, I would state things like "Thanks to _____ for their support" or "I would like to recognized ______ for their help" or other phrases that indicated recognition of others. Award winners, athletes and successful people regularly thank others for their support and state how it helped them achieve their goals. In those speeches you hear phrases like "If I have seen further it is by standing on ye sholders of Giants". Phrases that build up the work of others without minimizing the work of others.

However, Obama speech was void of recognition and building phrases, instead it was filled with phrases like "You didn't build that" and "You didn't get there on your own". This speech did not build up or recognize the work of others, it tore away at those the built businesses.

I do agree with every thing being boiled down to sounds bites. However, I tend to blame the media more than the politicians. (Have you even know a politician to not be long winded)

Harold Mansfield

09-01-2012, 02:17 PM

were you offended by Obama when he said 'you didnt build it'?
i personally doubled my contribution to Romney after i heard it....i found it s-h-o-c-k-i-n-g and had to listen to it 3x to make sure i wasnt missing something

Obama didn't say that, and YOU KNOW he didn't.

Every news agency in the country has busted the GOP for taking that one line out of context from the entire statement, and creating a lie on which to base their platform. If you watch anything other than Fox "news" there is no way you haven't seen the ENTIRE statement by now.

So if that's the kind of credibility that makes you double down on campaign donations, then you will always be disappointed in the people you vote for, because all they need to do is lie to you and you give them money. You WANT to believe what they are saying so bad, that you ignore reality.

It's that refusal to accept reality that allowed German propaganda to be so successful with their own people during WWII. By the end of the war, The German people were stunned that they'd been had and that the entire world actually hated them. Let alone the atrocities.

Watch the entire statement, and then come back here and tell me that you don't understand the real context of the point, and that the GOP isn't lying to you about what he really said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKjPI6no5ng

The fact that they can say anything at all to you and you beleive it blindly and NEVER fact check any of it, is scary.

I don't mind a difference of opinion, or a vigorous discussion on the issues, but when you start it with a lie that you are determined to believe, the conversation is over. You can't reason with people who are determined to believe a lie, even when the truth is smacking them in the face.

Harold Mansfield

09-01-2012, 02:32 PM

Not to mention EVERY single "business owner" that they've paraded around as the "by my bootstraps" entrepreneur that did it all by themselves with no help from anyone, have all been busted for taking grants, small business loans, funding factories with public bonds and so on and so on.

Every Romney himself, at Bain, didn't do it all on his own.

You could say, that every time Bain exploited a business for profit and walked away with hundreds of millions, it was the TAX PAYER that picked up the pieces he left behind with Unemployment Insurance, COBRA, Food Stamps, Education grants, Welfare and what ever that community now needs because it's out of work. But Bain walked with millions, and then hid it offshore to avoid paying taxes on it. A double "screw you" to the tax payer. "Clean this up, AND we aren't going to contribute to the system that pays for it".

What do you think happens to creditors when a company files bankrupcy? They get screwed and write the loss off. Which screws us out of taxes, and creates less revenue. Which WE have to make up for in the way of borrowing to replace the loss of revenue to keep the system going that lets them do it all over again and pocket millions.

It was the very system that allowed him to pocket 100's of millions in profit on a bankrupted company. It's that very system that allows him to have $100 million in a TAX FREE IRA ( even though the law caps contributions at $6k a year). He owes his entire fortune TO the system, and every tax dodge and protection that it affords him. Because if what he did wasn't legal and protected under the Fed, the people that he screwed, would have kicked his ass by now.

So don't even try that "I did all myself" BS. Even the people telling you this crap, didn't build it the way the claim they did. There's government help all up in it.

You're listening to people like Mitt Romney, Donald Trump and The Koch Brothers who INHERITED wealth and are now chest thumping about how they did it all themselves. And you are so impressed in that garbage that you, who make thousands, are sending your hard earned money to people who bet your salary on one hand of blackjack in Vegas or Maccau.

Harold Mansfield

09-01-2012, 02:51 PM

Even YOUR industry exists because of Government. You didn't build America's plumbing system and standards. Government engineers did that, paid for by tax payer dollars. You don't build a home's entire system from fresh water treatment and pipe it in miles from the source, to waste management and piping it out where it needs to go. Government does that.

You learned how to fix and repair it based on standards and infrastructure that is already is existence. The system was already set up for you to come in and make money on it in maintenance and repairs.

You OWE your entire existence to Government. Thank God they already did the hard work, so that now you can come in on the back end and charge people to fix it.

Even the houses that you work on, no matter the value, were purchased with a Government backed mortgage and securities. And insured based on standards set by the Federal government. Any of your homeowners make money from federal contracts or get started with grants or small business loans? Go to college with student loans? Go to public schools? And now they are paying you with the income that they make because of it.

When you start building an entire infrastructure that gives citizens clean water, and start doing the job of the EPA to insure that people aren't getting poisoned water, then come talk to me about what you've built.

All you've built is your own cash flow working in it. The system that you make money on, was there far before you were even born.
</rant>

This is why we don't do politics here.

nealrm

09-01-2012, 09:53 PM

The very simple fact is that he did say that and it is in context with the portion of the speech around it. Not only did he say it, but he said it three time. The first two were "you didn't get there on your own", and the second was the "you didn't create it". Yes Fox news is over simplifying it and the liberal media are in damage control trying to discredit anyone the publicly calls out Obama for say it, but if you read the speech it is clear he did say that. Based on the portions of the speech before and after, it is clear Obama doesn't value those that create wealth. This is further support by statement in other speeches.

No reasonable person is going to state that they created every single portion of every part of their business and no reasonable person would state that someone didn't create a business because they used a road or the internet. Both of these statements are made by extremists, are offensive and generally degrading to the person making them. People take risks to create a business, to build something that was not there before. These people deserve the credit and respect relating to what they built. Without them and others like them, America would not be where it is today. Our current standard of living, the prosperity we enjoy where made possible by those that worked to create something. They should not be insulted by someone telling them that they didn't create it. Obama insulted a lot of people with his comments.

Unfortunately many people are confused about the relationship between government and wealth creation. The government exists because it can take a portion of the wealth created by people to fund itself and provide services back to the people. The government cannot create wealth on it own, absolutely everything it does or purchases is paid for by those that create wealth. So in a true sense the only thing the government can do redistribute the wealth it collects. Without people creating wealth the government cannot exist. Many people also believe that wealth cannot be created without the government. In a strict sense this is false. People have created wealth for thousands of years without the government.

Today, people build upon that which is already in place. Still, they created that additional amount of wealth and deserve full credit for that part.

billbenson

09-02-2012, 12:46 AM

@ Neal. He said it, the republican party used it grossly out of context, and many voters believe the republican BS on this particular issue. I see it as a statement of "the government helps or has helped build small businesses" or something like that. You find it offensive because it could have been phrased in a more positive manner. OK, I can accept that and I'm sure you didn't buy off on the propaganda when you first heard it.

I certainly don't see it as a reason to select a president. I'd vote for Attila the Hun if he could balance the budget, improve the economy, and keep our country safe ie commander in chief. Also, I don't think the economy can be fixed in 4 years. All candidates promise a quick fix. The economy is a problem that takes a long time to solve IMO. If we keep changing directions mid stream, we will never get to the shore.

My mom who is 88 believes that when she dies, that half of what she gives her kids is going to taxes. The original taxation set the maximum tax at 50% (or 55%, I forget which) at the $1M level. As part of the Bush tax cuts, this was changed to a max of $35% when your estate is worth $5M or more. Obama pushed through an extension of this that expires the end of 2012.

A tax cut is a republican sort of concept. I personally believe that Obama's extension of this was possible because a democratic president pushed it through. As partisan as the congress and senate are, I doubt a republican president could have gotten the democratic votes to pass this. However that is just my opinion. From what I have read, neither party really wants to touch the Bush tax cuts for political reasons. It will probably remain in some resemblance of it's current form.

My mother receives propaganda emails some of which have led her to believe that half of her estate will be taxed at 50%. Her estate can't be worth more than $700k or so. But she believes this crap, really doesn't know how to use a computer to research the facts, and votes based on the BS emails she receives from her republican based special interest groups. Her church also tells her how to vote which I think is very wrong also.

This is not a one sided issue. The democrats and every special interest group do it as well. There was a recent interview with Anderson Cooper and the DNC chairwoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz where she was defending emails by the DNC using out of context quotes from the NY Times. She actually felt that it was the right thing to do. Lying about the facts to push your position is the right thing to do????

My argument both here and in the politics thread is that we are voting for people based on propaganda and with little research. That's not a finger pointed at you. But I think it is a fact that most are elected because of propaganda or inbred political persuasions. Also, unfortunately, people vote for self serving reasons. This helps me and screw everybody else.

So a question. Is your reaction about being offended by Obama's speech because you really lean to the right? Would you be so offended if you were in the middle or more to the left?

Steve B

09-02-2012, 07:12 AM

"if you read the speech it is clear he did say that." It all comes down to how you define "that". Anyone that passed the same reading and comprehension class that I did in elementary school would likely define "that" as the infrastructure and economic climate necessary for most businesses to be successful. So, I agree, he did say "that". If you're referring to "that" as the sentence that has been taken out of context in order to assign new meeting to it, then you're just continuing to perpetuate something that is false and hurts the credibilty of the party that made it a cornerstone of their convention.

I've heard lots of other speeches of his where he applaudes small businesses and individual ingenuity. Every politician in my lifetime has made it a point to do this and Obama is no exception. If you want to be critical, but more accurate, you could easily say that although he says he supports small businesses, his support of policy X does not seem consistent with his words because it harms businesses because of x,y, or z. I think the mistake he made was that he was trying to address the people that can't recognize there is a role for government beyond national security and roads - even when many of the same people's livelihood is postively influenced by the governement regulations that allow them to make a great living (i.e. plumbers). I think even a plumber could still be a credible member of the tea party or libertarian party, but they would have more credibility with me if they would at least recognize they are currently benefitting by programs that likely would not exist if their personal philosophy became the law of the land. You're right, every reasonable person would give credit to other's (including the role of government) to their business' success, but he wasted his time and tried to address the unreasonable.

It's crazy how people try to boil things down to such simple terms. It's not as simple as the republicans are the only ones that are "pro business" and the democrats are the only ones that are "pro middle class". It seems that many people choose their party affiliation - then act like the locals around here do with their affiliation with either the Univ. of KY or Univ. of Louisville. Once they choose their side, everything the other side does is wrong and everything their side does is correct. With sports teams it's makes for fun parties and bumper stickers and most people don't take it all that seriously. With politics, that "all or nothing" thinking is just scary to me.

huggytree

09-02-2012, 01:28 PM

that= your business
it= your business

he is saying everyone works hard....your not special
he is saying everyone is smart...your not special

you owe what you have to luck....not hard work or brains.....you owe it to the road builders and teachers....and thats why he wants you to give 1/2 your profits to goverment...to pay back the people you owe for all the help

its interesting that people can hear the same speech and feel 2 different ways.....politics is all about that idea....

people hear what they want to hear........

Harold Mansfield

09-02-2012, 02:13 PM

Here's the difference in reality:

Those who are constantly looking for every minuscule change in body language to jump on, see what they want to and take the opportunity to make accusations that The President doesn't respect business people. Which is completely absurd and judging by his actions, has no basis of fact. Much like the birth certificate conspiracy. Which was also made up.

The rest of us living in reality, know full well what the point was, understood it as it was intended, and even if in doubt, can take the totality of his actions over the past 3 years to swing the benefit of that doubt to understand the actual point.

You are going to believe what you want to believe, and he is going to be wrong about everything. So trying to make you admit that you know full well that wasn't the point, is a useless conversation. Just because you keep repeating it, doesn't make it true. But you are entitled to your opinion, and personal perception. And if in your mind the President is anti business and has a socialist agenda to destroy the world, no one can talk you out of that, no matter how insane it sounds to the rest of us, along with every other conspiracy theory and piece of propaganda that is constantly coming from the right every other day for the last 3 1/2 years.

President Obama has been a Kenyan born Muslim, Socialist, Terrorist, Anti American, Foriegn, Marxist, who attacks religion, family, marriage, white people, workers, freedom and liberties, and has commited a conspiracy to defraud the American people since day one and his mother did porn. Surely after a while, even you have to be tired of it every single day. It can't ALL be true. Everyday? All of it? Every conspiracy theory of the last 3 years? They are ALL true? Does that sound sane to you?

And, if all of you guys are walking around patting yourself on the back because you learned to make money within a system that was already created for you, then go for it. It's your world.

I'm not taking away from anyone's personal accomplishment of figuring out how to make money and spend it on themselves. But you aren't special. Many have already paved that road before you started walking. Yes, kudos to us for taking a chance and going into business for ourselves. But let's not get so arrogant that we start acting like we did something that was so ground breaking that it changed the world.

I work on the web. And if the Government hadn't invested in the R&D to make it possible and let it grow, I would be doing something else. But at least I'm not so self involved with my own smell that I refuse to admit it. I make a living on something that someone esle built. You all do. So get over yourself.

nealrm

09-02-2012, 02:40 PM

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on if the phrase is being used in of out of context. I can say that I have not been influenced by the propaganda from either side. The reason is because I don't regularly listen to either Fox new or the major news sources. My opinions are based on my reading and watching videos of the speech. I have followed the story after forming my opinions, and have found both side are spitting out garbage.

So unless you know of a bar that serves a good hard cider or micro-brewed dark beers, I am going to drop the in/out of context debate.

Bill, Steve I agree on you points about the media. In general I have found most major source of news have stopped reporting trying to report on the topics and instead are try to make a sensational story. I resent local non-political new story illustrates my point. The headline with "Drought stops construction of dam". I read it because I was wondering how the heck a drought would stop the construct of a dam. Logically it would seen that less water would make it easier to build the dam. When you read the story you found that the dam was complete, they were only waiting for some rain to fill the lake and to plant some grass. On the national it get worse. Stories are being made out of nothing. If a candidate or politician (especially a GOP one) has any aspect of their lives that COULD offend someone in any manner it is reported on in the most sensational manner possible. It don't manner if the event occurred when they were a kid and had no control of the issue, or even it what they did was completely legal and justifiable. The media will report on it as if it was of the same importance as a mass murder.

As for the role of government in the economy, that should be limited. Internal and external security, copyright and patents, roads, general education, public safety, a limited safety net and environment. Steve, your point about the plumbing industry is incorrect. That industry would exists regardless of if the government distribution system. Look at electricity, telephone, natural gas, cable TV, internet, gasoline .... all of which are distributed to the public without a government distribution system. In fact, many areas have private water distribution systems. As for pipe and plumbing standards, these were from market forces. People think in terms of 1/2, 3/4 and 1" pipes because those are easy to use. A case in point is the 120, 60 amp electrical system in the US. This was strictly the results of free market forces. Any regulation were done well after the fact. Look at computer OS systems. The government does state that programs must run on Windows or that you can't have a different operating system. Should the government step in and state that all programs must run on Window platforms. That would make it easier on web designers, you would no longer need to worry about how things looked on Mac systems.

The government has a small business program that provides guarantees for a portion of the loan. Many start-up business have taken advantage of these loans to start. Many have also gone out of business because of the debt occurred due to the loan or because the business concept was a bad idea. The question is did the SBA help or hurt? Did they allow a bad idea to continue by providing cheap money? Did they encourage a business to bring in more debt than it should? I believe that free market system in place for 200 years before the SBA would done a better job. Before you state all the successful businesses that started with a SBA loan, I will challenge you to prove they could not have started without the SBA.

How about student loans. I used to think this was a great idea, now I am not too sure. The government guarantees that the loans will be repaid, they are not bankruptable. This basically removed free market forces from the cost of college tuition. College and universities are free to charge $100,000 for a degree that at best will bring in $30,000 per year with zero risk that the student will not pay their bill. Pay scales in those same area are kept artificially low because of the influx of candidates. What would happen without the loans. First Universities would limit their risk, they would either lower cost so the student could pay it back or restrict/stop providing the courses. Second some student would stop going into those program because they could not pay back the loans. Either way the supply of job candidates would drop resulting in higher demanding salaries for those in the market. Over a short period of time, market forces would force tuition costs inline with salary prospects. Some would argue that this would prevent many from going to college. It would not. A reduction in college tuition would make it easier to work through college and market force would encourage more work/study programs.

These type of examples are found throughout the government. Government programs that side step market forces are causing more harm than good. The liberal idea that the government is the supplier prosperity and jobs is false.

Harold Mansfield

09-02-2012, 02:46 PM

The liberal idea that the government is the supplier prosperity and jobs is false.
I don't know any Liberals that beleive this and I really don't know where you get that from.

I think what it comes down to is, "Do you really believe that the President is anti business and has disdain for people who have created them"?
If you really believe that, then you were going to before this.

And I hope that reflects in your tax returns where you refuse to take advantage of the small business tax breaks that he has passed under his watch, for you, and that you remember that when you are voting for the people who tried to stop you from getting them.

Some people are always looking for a reason. And anything will do. It's no different from the guy that walks into the bar with an attitude. He's just hoping for someone to say "Hi" to him so that he will have a self created excuse to start a fight.

To me, this is the same thing and you can't win no matter how many facts you throw at them.
I have never felt this way about any President. Even when I disagreed with policy, I didn't disrespect the office and slummed around in the negative gossip.

If I thought Obama was "anit-business", I would have a list of actions that he's done to prove it. Not merely take one line out of context from one speech and create an entire believe structure from it. That's the part about this whole thing that makes me so angry. That after 4 years in office, a sound byte is enough to send people screaming "socialism" reguardless of his actual actions to the contrary, and without checking ALL of the information and making an informed opinion

Just because you think I said "Boo" because that's all you heard, it doesn't make me a ghost.

Steve B

09-02-2012, 03:46 PM

I wasn't wrong about the plumbing industry. I wasn't refering to a government distirubution system at all. I never mentioned it - so you can't even try to take that out of context. I only mentioned government regulations. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but not to your own facts.

The plumbers in the world make a very nice living because of the many building codes that have become law and are enforced by local governmental agencies. If we didn't have these regulations anyone could easily become a plumber without much effort since they woudln't have to worry about those pesky standards, codes, and environmental regulations. The large supply of plumbers would then bring down the price for all plumbers. That's just simple supply and demand. I'm glad for all the plumbing codes and enforcement of them. It's nice to know we have a very safe water supply and, for the most part, we responsibly handle our waste. I can't imagine our water supply and waste treatment systems being this effective without the role of government. I don't think recognizing this fact makes me a socialist or even a liberal.

huggytree

09-03-2012, 09:38 AM

when Obama is called a Socialist that is a correct statement....everything he does is to move the country towards Socialism.....name a few things he has done to improve capitalism?

now on to plumbing...One of the purposes of Govt is to keep us safe....the Military.....and setting up Standards.....the plumbing standards keep us safe and make the plumbing work correctly and efficiently.....

with out standards would my personal standard of living go down...yes.....

did the Govt. build my business----no

does the existence of the standards and their enforcement make me more money...yes

yes the govt. built the roads i drive on and the plumbing mains under the street i hook up to....so what.....i shouldnt pay higher taxes because roads exist.....i shouldnt pay higher taxes because i had teachers.....i shouldnt pay higher taxes because other people are as smart as me and work as hard as me...............his whole 'you didnt build that' speech is about letting YOU know as a business owner that you arent really special.. Socialism isnt about anyone being special....to move the country further that direction he needs to get 51% to feel like were all the same and business owners are rich because of luck

in the small business circles i am in i currently dont know of 1 democrat...all the home builder association types are hard core conservatives...some of it comes from the fact that they are all hunters and pro gun....most of the home builders have delt with environmental issues with the govt. and been soured....quite a few are religious extremists (something w/ Jesus being a carpenter seems to drive some of this).......i was in a BNI group for 3 years and knew 40+ small business owners from a wide range of business types....yea there were a couple of Democrats there....our group talked politics a lot, so i knew where most of them stood.....................im am just shocked that any small business person would vote for Obama in 2012...his anti business is in your face....since my market was the hardest hit and never recovered i blame him........i can see the internet type's being democrat i guess....the few i know personally are hard core Republicans.......

i originally asked the question here because i knew the answer, but was curious anyways

in the end we all see things through our own filter.....one of us may be right, or maybe neither

Harold Mansfield

09-03-2012, 02:36 PM

Huggy, you are a walking contradiction of yourself.

On any given day you are posting about how great things are, how much you make, that you have regained your losses from Great Recession, and how well you are doing by your family.

But bring up Obama, and all of a sudden, everything is horrible, he's ruining your business, and is making it harder on you to make a buck.

Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

If you just want to hate Obama, you don't need to make up reasons to justify it, but a year of reading your forum posts tell me that the garbage you are trying to sell about how horrible he is right now, is in direct conflict with how great you've been saying things are for over a year now.

So if he's a socialist, then socialism must be very good for you.

I can't wait to see you look at your growing bank account and all that you've accomplished, and accumulated recently, and vote to repeal every single policy that helped it happen and reverse course.

billbenson

09-03-2012, 02:46 PM

when Obama is called a Socialist that is a correct statement....everything he does is to move the country towards Socialism.....name a few things he has done to improve capitalism?
Obama extended the Bush tax cuts. Pretty damn socialistic huh.

Insurance is a socialistic concept. All the money goes into one pot and those that need it get it. It shouldn't be a privately held profit center for wall street investors. I don't want to go back to the days of if I get sick, my insurance company drops me.

On other issues, Romney is an investment banker. They maximize return by eliminating jobs, not a good strategy in this economy.

Obama has gotten us out of Iraq, had excellent international diplomacy via Hillary Clinton, killed pirates in Somalia, killed Bin Ladin, and kept us from getting involved in more wars which gives him a pretty good record as commander in chief. Romney has no experience in this area, never served in the military (neither did Obama). I'll take someone with 4 years of success in this area than someone who knows nothing in this area.

In short, Obama is very much in the center. Your statement "everything he does is to move the country towards Socialism" is a lie. The only thing I can think of is Obamacare and that's a socialized concept even in the private sector. You obviously couldn't think of anything socialistic he had done as you didn't list anything.

By the way, I'm republican. It doesn't mean I have to vote republican when this time around the democrats have a better solution.

Angelina86

09-04-2012, 02:37 AM

I guess I get why it's kind of offending he could have said it in a different way.

I get what he's trying to say but I don't like that he said "you didnt build it"

Harold Mansfield

09-04-2012, 09:13 AM

I guess I get why it's kind of offending he could have said it in a different way.

I get what he's trying to say but I don't like that he said "you didnt build it"

You just admitted that you know he didn't say it or mean it that way. So why are you offended? Because you keep taking the same 4 words out of context to make yourself mad imagining that he meant it that way?

MyITGuy

09-04-2012, 02:56 PM

everything he does is to move the country towards Socialism.....name a few things he has done to improve capitalism?
....
im am just shocked that any small business person would vote for Obama in 2012...his anti business is in your face....since my market was the hardest hit and never recovered i blame him

You say the your market was the hardest hit and you never recovered, but yet I recall threads you posted saying this will be your best year yet...
You blame the president and his democratic views for your lack of business, but then you post that your republican customer base dried up in late 09 with Democrats providing a significant portion of your income since then...

Seems like you have your views a bit backwards there.

As a small business owner, why shouldn't I vote for Obama again? You ask me to name a few things that have improved capitalism, I challenge you to name a few things he has done to stifle small business (Or business in general).

Harold Mansfield

09-04-2012, 03:17 PM

Huggy, just a few of your statements since Barack Obama has been President:

i renewed....they matched last years price....and all of the Ads that were same size and before mine dropped out
so i should be in the same position i was in 2 years ago [2010] when a $850 ad brought me $8-10k in business
http://www.small-business-forum.net/traditional-marketing/6553-phone-book-renewal-coming-up-what-do-post65013.html#post65013

i have been remodeling my house yearly and have bought 3 new cars...
http://www.small-business-forum.net/water-cooler/6832-politics-post64891.html#post64891

my company is doing great...last year was the only down year ive ever had and this year is up 73% over last year(as of 2 days ago).....im swimming in cash....
http://www.small-business-forum.net/water-cooler/6936-retirement-age-2.html

.i have a lot of $$ in retirement savings for my age, but it seems like its the actual dollars i put in....ive been putting in $20-30k a year the past few years

if the stock market doesnt start giving me some returns over the next 23 years i may have to push my retirement back to 75, but i should be able to easily still do it.....i have enough saved to buy a Florida Condo right now and plan on Summers here in WI and Winter in Florida
http://www.small-business-forum.net/water-cooler/6936-retirement-age.html

..selling the company is NOT part of my retirement plan...thats just a sweetener

65 is the goal....hoping to have the business at a point where i can sell it for $100k-$500k
http://www.small-business-forum.net/water-cooler/6936-retirement-age.html#post64210

by me only accepting cash im building my business with a higher end client base.....my customers have cash to pay me....they dont live paycheck to paycheck....i DO use my credit card for gas/groceries though just to get the 3% cash back....
http://www.small-business-forum.net/managing-your-business/6847-do-you-do-payment-plans-w-customers-3.html#post63912

i made so much this Winter/early Spring that im still 75% over last year.......
http://www.small-business-forum.net/water-cooler/6898-lately-work-busy-one-week-dead-next-its-been-pattern-few-months-now.html#post63903

I'm having a hard time seeing where he has screwed you, and where you haven't been doing well since 2009.

huggytree

09-04-2012, 04:31 PM

ive done well under Obama.....as far as company growth.....i may hit $600,000 in sales this year....$150,000 over last year

my stocks havent moved since he took office

im paying $1.50 more for gas since he took office

im paying $300 more a month in groceries than i did 1 year ago

i dont work on new homes anymore...they really dont exist anymore

there are still people w/ money and who are spending....most of my customers live in liberal 'rich' area's

i dont do large projects for direct homeowner anymore....3-4 years ago i did.....but now only wealthy people seem to be doing it....the average customer is mostly repairs and replacements....things that have to be done....the market for doing a bath redo for a homeowner doesnt exist

im doing well because i have a niche.....bath redo's and additions for people making $150,000-$1,000,000 a year....people on the high end of middle class and above

my success is rare these days....i dont know anyone who's even close in my circles....most make less and less each year....im successful because im an annoying workaholic......and i can see a niche others cant .......

if housing would return and the stock market would improve for more than a couple months at a time(i know its good right now for a bit) i could most likely expand instantly and get out of the field.....when new homes comes back and middle class people start spending on bath remodels again i should be able to grow my company into the millions in a couple of years.....

Harold Mansfield

09-04-2012, 04:47 PM

ive done well under Obama.....as far as company growth.....i may hit $600,000 in sales this year....$150,000 over last year
Hooray Socialism!

my stocks havent moved since he took office
And yet the market is pushing 13k, from the 6k when he took over. And the S&P 500 has grown by 74% over the same time. Sounds like you need a better adviser.

im paying $1.50 more for gas since he took office
Obama doesn't own the gas. The U.S. doesn't produce oil. Blame the people who you are buying the product from. Their profits are the highest in the history of the world.

im paying $300 more a month in groceries than i did 1 year ago
Good. Your kids are growing. Congratulations.

i dont work on new homes anymore...they really dont exist anymore
That bubble busted long before 2009.

there are still people w/ money and who are spending....most of my customers live in liberal 'rich' area's
Of course there are. Or else you wouldn't be making a dime. None of us would.

i dont do large projects for direct homeowner anymore....3-4 years ago i did.....but now only wealthy people seem to be doing it....the average customer is mostly repairs and replacements....things that have to be done....the market for doing a bath redo for a homeowner doesnt exist
And most of my money these days is the same. Repairs, troubleshooting, and upgrades. It's true, there aren't that many new business start ups these days.

im doing well because i have a niche.....bath redo's and additions for people making $150,000-$1,000,000 a year....people on the high end of middle class and above

I'm not saying things are great. But we knew it wasn't going to be all better in 3 years. Didn't we?

If I have to answer the question, "Am I better off today than I was 4 years ago"....let's see...

4 years ago we were loosing jobs by the 100's of thousands ( including mine) per month. Banks were failing. The stock market was nose diving. Global markets were tanking. 401k's became 201k's. Foreclosures where skyrocketing into the MILLIONS. Business credit was gone. We were in 2 wars. Worried about the next Bin Laden attack. GM and Chrysler were going under. Lehman Brothers had just collapsed after over 80 years on Wall Street. Remember Meryl Lynch? GONE! I watched 30 major mortgage companies ( including Countrywide) close in ONE MONTH. There were no jobs. 10's of Millions of people were just put out on the street. People were panicking. No one was spending. Vegas was a ghost town. Newspaper headlines were actually using the word "Depression" to question the uncertainty. It was one more catastrophe away from people doing headers from the top of tall buildings.

Thank God I didn't have a dog or a woman that year, cause the dog would have probably died and the woman would have left, right after someone stole my truck.

Personally, I didn't see any way that it would get better for at least 10 years. The situation was hopeless ( no pun intended) . I thought the U.S. was done for a while. Is there anyone out there that thought, "No problem. This will all go back to normal in 4 years and we'll be able to get everyone back thier homes and pull 30 million jobs out of our a** pretty easily."?

Of course if Barbara Eden popped out of a bottle and was handing out 3 wishes for 2012, I certainly wouldn't settle for what we have. But compared to where we were, and where we were going? This is better. MUCH better.

MyITGuy

09-04-2012, 05:54 PM

Obama doesn't own the gas. The U.S. doesn't produce oil. Blame the people who you are buying the product from. Their profits are the highest in the history of the world.

To build on that comment, I call BS on Huggy paying $1.50 more for gas now than Obama took office:
248

The chart above shows the average cost of gas in 2008 (7 measurements) was 3.25, hitting a peak of $4.12 under President Bush. This same chart, using the last 7 measurements shows that the average cost of gas is 3.54, hitting a peak of 3.90 or so under President Obama.

How are you paying $1.50 more for Gas?

On the flip side, if the President did have the power to control the Gas Prices, wouldn't that be viewed as a form of socialism and hindering Capitalism? You can't have it both ways!

MyITGuy

09-04-2012, 06:04 PM

i dont work on new homes anymore...they really dont exist anymore

2007 - 13,326 permits (http://www.wisbuild.org/site/publisher/files/Housing%20Starts/2008%20all%20Housing%20Starts.pdf)
2008 - 8,496 permits (http://www.wisbuild.org/site/publisher/files/Housing%20Starts/2008%20all%20Housing%20Starts.pdf)
2009 - 6,395 permits (http://www.wisbuild.org/site/publisher/files/Housing%20Starts/2009%20HousingPermits%20Jan_Dec.pdf)
2010 - 6,356 permits (http://www.wisbuild.org/site/publisher/files/Housing%20Starts/2010%20HousingPermits_Jan-Dec.pdf)
2011 - 5,362 permits (http://www.wisbuild.org/site/publisher/files/2012%20HousingPermits%20Jan-May(3).pdf)
2012 - 2,292 permits through May (http://www.wisbuild.org/site/publisher/files/2012%20HousingPermits%20Jan-May(3).pdf)

Seems Bush had more of an impact on new home builds than Obama, cutting the number of permits by almost half...and the new builds are there but your just not getting the business (207 new homes permitted in your county through May compared to 599 in 2008).

MyITGuy

09-04-2012, 06:07 PM

If I have to answer the question, "Am I better off today than I was 4 years ago"....let's see...

This is better. MUCH better.

Funny you should ask that question, I just read an article over lunch that confirms things are better by analyzing multiple points of data:
Are You Better Off Than You Were At The End Of The Bush Administration? A Data-Based Assessment - Business Insider (http://pulse.me/s/cY8oY)

jbechtold

09-04-2012, 07:56 PM

Oh boy, I thought talking politics as a business owner was bad form?

Anyway I guess to answer the original post I did find it a bit insulting. It goes along with his world view though, so it shouldn't be surprising.

I do find it amusing how Obama is the reason things are good, but when they're bad its not in his control (and vice versa).

The reality is the president has very little control over much of any individuals lives.

Harold Mansfield

09-04-2012, 09:30 PM

From what I've seen, Obama shoulders the good and the bad pretty well. Just because we recognize that this is his economy now, good or bad, doesn't mean that the reason that we are rebuilding magically goes away. We almost went into a depression. The moves made to keep banks from failing alone, were pretty savvy if you ask me. But everyone seems to forget that now.

(Keating 5 ) McCain never would have done that. He would have given the banks MORE rope to hang us.

billbenson

09-04-2012, 09:34 PM

Funny, that gas prices were at their highest under Bush and everyone wants to blame Obama. The truth is the the president has nothing to do with gas prices. Seasonal demand, fires on oil platforms, hurricanes, and market speculation particularly with the instability in the Arab countries are the primary factors. According to Wiki, the US provides 70% of its energy resources. The link below will show the historical gas prices. Select 5 years to see that prices were at an all time high under Bush peaking in July 2008. I don't blame Bush for that, it wasn't under his control. Why is everybody blaming Obama when it was worse under Bush?

Huggy, it's becoming increasingly obvious that you do zero research when it comes to your political positions. That's a sad thing.

Historical Gas Price Charts - GasBuddy.com (http://gasbuddy.com/gb_retail_price_chart.aspx)

Oh boy, I thought talking politics as a business owner was bad form?

Anyway I guess to answer the original post I did find it a bit insulting. It goes along with his world view though, so it shouldn't be surprising.

I do find it amusing how Obama is the reason things are good, but when they're bad its not in his control (and vice versa).

The reality is the president has very little control over much of any individuals lives.

jbechtold, I agree with you for the most part. I just don't get the part where people are offended by a factual statement. Yes it could have been stated in a more positive manner, but the meaning is the same.

I started a politics thread and now there is this one which is far more partisan. I would hope to steer this one away from the partisan politics.

The reason I started the politics thread is it is important to vote. But if all you do is vote for what your drinking buddies do, pastor recommends, or propaganda you get in the media, it's a pretty sad situation. I'm hoping this and the other thread will make people at least research the facts on the candidates. You can make a checklist with who's good at this, who's better at that and make an informed decision.

So hopefully we can transform or keep these threads educational and non partisan. Huggy, the OP in this thread said that everything Obama does brings us closer to socialism or is socialistic. I mentioned that he extended the Bush tax cuts. But he defended his position with opinions, not facts. He's obviously not going to start doing research as his bias is so great to the right, but if a couple of people reading these threads can say "is that really true?" and do the research, the thread is worthwhile.