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billbenson
07-27-2012, 03:22 PM
I'm kind of pointing this at Huggy as he's very methodical in his life / business plan, but when do people here plan on retiring? Realistic ages, not "I'd like to".

vangogh
07-27-2012, 05:33 PM
I don't have an age where I plan on retiring. I do what I do because I enjoy doing it and can't really imagine ever stopping. At some point I hope to have enough money to not need to deal with much of the business stuff and I'd start pulling back from those things I don't enjoy doing as much, but do because you have to if you want be in business. Assuming that's how things work I would think at some point I'd have pulled back from those things enough to call myself retired though I'm pretty sure I'll still be doing much of what I do now.

The specific age I can stop is irrelevant to me. What's more likely is as I get older I hopefully won't need the business to make as much money and I'll little by little work less on parts of the business.

Steve B
07-28-2012, 05:43 AM
Never will retire.

billbenson
07-28-2012, 12:02 PM
I have a goal of 65 for an age to "do what I want". I'm sure I will continue working at some level. I also don't know that I will meet that goal.

huggytree
07-29-2012, 10:03 AM
65 is the goal....hoping to have the business at a point where i can sell it for $100k-$500k

i havent made anything in mutual funds in like 10 years....it goes up little by little each year and over my life time (so far) ive seen 3 dramatic down turns which have brought things back to almost making nothing .......i discuss this often with my Edward Jones Lady and she argues that in the end i will see 7% a year....in the past 7 years ive worked with her its been 1% a year.....i can prove that one, its not just a gut feeling.....since 1990 when i started saving for retirement i dont feel the market has done what it should....in the early 1990's it was GREAT, but its all been given back.....i have a lot of $$ in retirement savings for my age, but it seems like its the actual dollars i put in....ive been putting in $20-30k a year the past few years....and it goes no where.....i have seriously considered buying Gold in the past and am now kicking my self for not doing it....depending on how things look after the presidential election this Nov I may stop putting $ into retirement and start putting that $20-30k into physical gold....we have family friends who are wealthy who have been doing that for a few years and they have made $$ while i sit making nothing for 7 years

my Edward Jones Lady is rated in the top 5 for the midwest...she wins awards all the time.....its not her...its the market....with this economy the way its going i feel were going to have another lost decade (like Japan).......this is going to kill all of us for retirement....

reverse mortgages====no more inheritance for children of baby boomers====retirement may be a rarer and rarer thing.....the baby boomers have saved nothing....all they have is their homes and $100,000......they will have no choice but to do reverse mortgages which will leave their children with no inheritance which will make that generation poorer....when my grand father died my father got around $150,000 from the house.....it changed his lifestyle....in 20 years that wont happen anymore....wealth wont be passed on to the next generation.....thats $75k-$300k out of everyone pockets....

if the stock market doesnt start giving me some returns over the next 23 years i may have to push my retirement back to 75, but i should be able to easily still do it.....i have enough saved to buy a Florida Condo right now and plan on Summers here in WI and Winter in Florida

I do have a plumbers union pension too...maybe $2k a month, but in 2035 $2k wont even buy groceries for the month
my wife has a pension from the teachers union, but its almost nothing ..maybe $500 a month.......enough to fill your gas tank up once or twice in 2035

my plumbers union pension is under funded (like every pension out there right now), and the union is going down hill fast, so i may end up with $0 from it...

Ive been taught in high school not to expect $1 from SS.....hopefully every generation after me has also been educated not to expect anything from it either....ive never included $1 in my retirement plans from SS....very sad....ill pay all my life to help the baby boomers and in return i will get $0

i doubt in 20 years anyone will be able to retire...it will be a rare thing.......i think my generation will live with their children when they can no longer physically work.....they will be a burden and bring down the next generations income level further.

the my generation and the generation after mine is going to suffer badly from the excesses of the baby boomers

they call me Mr.Positive....ha.....my view of the future is very dim...

Harold Mansfield
07-29-2012, 12:03 PM
It's weird to hear Huggy saying that "this" economy is weak, and yet the market continues to make gains, just closed over 13,000, corporate profits are at an all time high, oil companies are making more than anyone in the history of the world, companies are sitting on trillions in cash reserves, earnings reports are steady, and interest rates for real estate investments are at an all time low....you can buy property at 3%.

Why isn't this culminating into positive results for your portfolio? I'm asking seriously.
How are other people making money, but the average Mom and Pop investor are complaining that they aren't seeing any positive gains?

I don't get it.

Or is it that the loss was so staggering during the collapse of 2007-2009 that it will take years for average investors to recover and recoup those gains of years ago?

Steve B
07-29-2012, 01:29 PM
I think you answered your own question with the last sentence Harold.

Also, I thought HT was personally having a record year for his business. At least there is enough money going around that he is able to do well.

Steve B
07-29-2012, 01:44 PM
We probably discussed this before HT, but if you plan to sell your business, you would be wise to make sure it is more than an one man operation several years before you sell it. Potential buyers will fear that too much of the value of the business will go away when you retire. If you have a manager and 2 or 3 employees that plan to stick around after the sale, then there will be a lot more value for someone that will be interested in purchasing it. You did good by not naming the company after yourself - I think that will help your value in the long run.

billbenson
07-29-2012, 02:16 PM
Huggy, it sounds like you are investing in the same conservative stocks that your did did in a very different time. In my dad's era, over a lifetime he bought the IBM's, and AT&T's every year and the appreciated over his life span. He took a bath in the yr 2000 dot com crash but still had enough for a decent retirement. AT&T doesn't exist as the same stable company any more. The buy and hold conservative stock strategy is no longer a valid one. There are people our there that are making a lot of money in the stock market whether it goes up or down. You need to do what they do, not what your dad did.

huggytree
07-29-2012, 02:22 PM
We probably discussed this before HT, but if you plan to sell your business, you would be wise to make sure it is more than an one man operation several years before you sell it. Potential buyers will fear that too much of the value of the business will go away when you retire. If you have a manager and 2 or 3 employees that plan to stick around after the sale, then there will be a lot more value for someone that will be interested in purchasing it. You did good by not naming the company after yourself - I think that will help your value in the long run.

yes i know its worth almost nothing as a 1 man shop.....my goal has always been a 5 man shop with me managing....selling the company is NOT part of my retirement plan...thats just a sweetener

huggytree
07-29-2012, 02:30 PM
people are LEAVING the stock market right now...thats a FACT!

im sure a few individual stocks have done ok or well in this economy, but most havent...im not in conservative stocks at all!!!...im in everything...i think i have over 10 different mutual funds....from high risk to bond funds...some international.....very few have shown anything in 5-7 years

my stocks go up 10% a year many years....problem is every 10 years the stock market goes down 50%....killing everything ive made...this has happened 3x so far in the past 22 years

Mom and Pop investor are getting out of the stock market...no one is making anything...its just FLAT...up 1,000 points, down 1,000 points....blah

my company is doing great...last year was the only down year ive ever had and this year is up 73% over last year(as of 2 days ago).....im swimming in cash....business has been crap for 3 months though....but is showing signs of a comeback for the Fall.....im doing well because of ME....nothing to do with the Economy or the stock market.....i have a Niche that other companies are running away from....high quality/medium price....its rare.....everyone else is low quality/low price...they are killing themselves to get lower and cheaper.....i have raised my quality almost monthly with better products and have raised my prices

Harold Mansfield
07-29-2012, 02:47 PM
Sounds like what you are saying is ultimately the stock market is controlled and manipulated by a small number of investors, and that doesn't leave much "trickle down" room for anyone else to realize any significant gains.

In other words, not much as changed since 2007-2009, except that they aren't manipulating real estate funds anymore, but are still hedging bets against failures (credit default swaps), which ultimately screws that average investor because middle level strategist (the person in charge of your portfolio) continue to prop up these as sound investment strategies (because under normal circumstances they are), while the people at the top see the opportunity of more people buying in, and then manipulate the price in order to make billions on their loss.

Seems to me your portfolio has less to do with the economy, because money is being made and profits are up, and more to do with manipulation of the market that keeps your returns down.

So in order for you or any other retirement investor to ever realize the potential of your portfolio, you will need our law makers to rein in and regulate these loopholes that keep screwing you over, while making them money.

So maybe the people "leaving the stock market" have figured this out and are looking for other investment strategies that are a litle more regulated, and keep things a little more fair. Cause the guys at the top certainly aren't leaving. But they need you to lose money so that they can make money, so they'll come up with some way to keep you in. And this will keep going on until Congress closes these loopholes and starts regulating this BS or people like you will never have a fair shot.


At least that's how I see it.
I could be wrong. I'm just thinking out loud.

Steve B
07-30-2012, 05:59 AM
Whether or not the stock market has done well is not something that needs to be debated. All you have to do is look at the usual performance history indicators. You just have to pick two different points in time and you will have your answer. You can do it for every individual stock listed also - so, of course, many stocks have done well and many have done terrible over any period in time.

From what I understand, if you had invested in the general market (i.e. an Index fund) and made regular monthly contributions over any period for 15 years or more, there is no period in which you wouldn't have made a nice return on your money. I guess you could bet on the concept that the market is going to do worse over the next ten or twenty years than ever in history, but that doesn't seem like a wise bet to me.

If you only had that time machine and could go back and buy that gold :)

huggytree
08-03-2012, 10:16 PM
a guy i was working with today just went to a funeral for his mother in law....he's a 45 year old lazy type of guy...no clue...doing hard manual labor....

he asks me about gold....says his Mother In Law has BARS!!! of it....i told him he may be able to retire TODAY....and why are you shoveling dirt when you may be a millionaire

getting back to the stock market....there have been 20-30 year windows where people made crap.....if you time it right you got screwed.....im saying from 1990 until 2012 the market hasnt done the typical 7% a year....and i know 2008 to 2012 hasnt done squat(1% is what ive gotten...some accounts are -5% and some are +5%)

companies are having record profits???? who told you that????....yea Oil is...Apple is.... GM/Ford are doing OK...but i dont think anyone else it....(my company is!)

if they had record profits the economy would be doing well....people arent buying, so people are still going under

Steve B
08-03-2012, 10:30 PM
You would have to define "crap". According to any variation of an index fund ANY 20 - 30 year period people have done relatively well (relatively well compared to most other investment options). All you have to do is look it up - it's not an opinion thing. 2008 to 2012 is a very short window when talking about retirement investing so I'm not sure what the relevance is other than that you want the stock market to always do well in each and every period of time. That's just not the way it works - it's a gamble which is why the potential returns are higher than the more stable investing options. If you're investing equally every month, then you're taking advantage of the low prices during these last few years and you will, hopefully, reap rewards later.

Harold Mansfield
08-04-2012, 01:11 AM
The more you have to invest, the better you can do. Obviously someone like a Mitt Romney has done well with his investments over the last 20 years. But even when funds are under preforming...3% of $10,000,000 is still a pretty good pull.

I've been following funds for a few years, and quite a few have had consistent returns of 6%-8%. But you'll never get that just holding on to individual stocks, or investing in traditional 401k's. Staying safe with low returns only makes sense if you have a lot of money invested. Other than that, you have to take some carefully, crafted risks and stay away from the hot new thing.

The people that know the most about hedging bets are the ones that make the money. And that is usually when they control the outcome.
For instance, if I know someone looking for a certain kind of app, or domain and I know where each is available...I can get them for a low price because the owners have no buyer. And then sell them to them to my buyer for twice as much.

This is how Bain Capitol made money. They already knew the outcome before they made the investment, because they were controlling the end result. They'd look at a company with good credit and already knew how much they could take loans out for, and who would give them to them... and what the inevitable laibility was on a bankrupcy. When you know that going in, it's worth buying a company for $30 mill, if you can take $100mil worth of loans out against it and take your salary out of the loan.
They didn't do anything special, they just knew more than the people that they were buying out and exploited it.
How did they know so much? Some was education, and some was actually lobbying for the laws that they were able to later explot.

Thousandaires can't do that.

KristineS
08-06-2012, 11:29 AM
I don't think I'll ever retire. I'd like to get to the point where I write from home and write columns or blogs or books or something, but I imagine I'll always be writing.

Business Attorney
08-06-2012, 12:25 PM
Or is it that the loss was so staggering during the collapse of 2007-2009 that it will take years for average investors to recover and recoup those gains of years ago?

That is the problem. Yes people have made money over the last few years, but if you look at people who saved in the 1980s and 1990s, they have been treated badly by the market over the last 12 years.

You point out that the market is at 13,000. Well that is great for people who were able to buy in at 9,000 or 10,000 over the last few years, but prior to its recent run-up, the market previously peaked at 11,750.28 on January 14, 2000. While that is a small net positive return of almost 11% over the 12-year period, inflation has been running at 2-3% in most years. To stay even, the market would need to be at 15,658. And that ignores the fact that even if the money were invested through a retirement account and compounded tax-free, ultimately the recipient is going to have to pay taxes on the distributions even though the "gains" are not even enough to offset real inflation (since gains are not indexed for inflation). In addition, to be in the market in mutual funds, as most individual investors wisely are, you have an annual expense. Even an annual expense of one half of 1% would knock out half of the gain over the last 12 years.

As a result, even though I have invested in a reasonable mix of mutual funds which have generally performed as well as the market and have a relatively low annual expense ratio, my retirement funds over the last dozen years, through my late 40s and all my 50s, have shrunk significantly in buying power. What looked very comfortable in 1999 is now painfully inadequate. If the market had grown at 8% from January 2000, it would be at nearly 30,000. Basically that means that my retirement funds are less than half of what a reasonable financial model would have predicted.

I don't have any plans to retire and probably wouldn't even if my nest egg were double its size, as I would have expected. I know several lawyers who are happily practicing even as they approach and pass age 80, and I am well short of that. I do plan to gradually cut back and spend more time traveling and visiting scattered family and friends, and the badly shrunken retirement assets are likely to curtail that to some extent.

socialme82
08-09-2012, 03:21 PM
I work on a computer so my semi-retirement age would be more of a valid question. I figure somewhere in my mid 60s or around 70 I will semi retire and maybe fully retire when I just get tired of doing anything work related altogether and want to drive about in an RV or something. Of course then I will probably blog about my adventures and use something like adsense of other banners, sell ebooks, and by the time I am done I will still have a good income stream/job.

vangogh
08-10-2012, 07:27 PM
Of course then I will probably blog about my adventures

Funny. That's kind of how I see myself in semi-retirement too. I can't imagine I'll ever stop everything. I'll just get choosier about what I do.

jamesray50
08-10-2012, 08:32 PM
I plan on retiring as soon as I am eligible for social security. I have been counting down the years for years now. I am really looking forward to having time to spend with my grandchildren, go on trips, doing things I haven't been able to do because of work.

huggytree
08-12-2012, 04:24 PM
I plan on retiring as soon as I am eligible for social security. I have been counting down the years for years now.

my generation will never be able to say that

its not even in my retirement equation...something your planning on 100% is something im planning on 0%(im 41)

billbenson
08-12-2012, 09:01 PM
my generation will never be able to say that

its not even in my retirement equation...something your planning on 100% is something im planning on 0%(im 41)

Huggy, I tend to doubt that Social Security would ever had given you enough for a retirement lifestyle you want. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it has always only provided a subsistence level of economic support.

Steve B
08-13-2012, 05:29 AM
SS is clearly not more than a subsistence level of support - but HT's point is that he's not counting on it at all. If he wanted to live on $4,000 per month and he thought SS was going to account for $1,000 of that - then he would only have to plan for $3,000. For HT - he's planning on saving enough to cover the $4,000 all by himself. If SS is available to him, then it's a bonus.

I personally think some version of SS will be available for me and even the following generations, it's just that we're going to have to wait much longer to get it and the amount will not keep up with inflation. It's just too sensitive of a political topic for it to be completely eliminated.

Harold Mansfield
08-13-2012, 12:31 PM
Just think. It they had been successfulin privatizing Social Security in 2005, it would have tanked with the rest of the market in 2008 and we wouldn't even be having a conversation about it right now, except in rememberance.

huggytree
08-13-2012, 01:00 PM
Just think. It they had been successfulin privatizing Social Security in 2005, it would have tanked with the rest of the market in 2008 and we wouldn't even be having a conversation about it right now, except in rememberance.

it would have lost 1/2 its value and then made a come back

everyone has most/all of their retirement in the stock market....why not all or some of SS?

it was announced last week that for the first time a person retiring will not get the $ that he has put into SS....so from this point forward you might as well just stuff the SS money in your mattress. its not going to make you anything....its a complete loss of interest from this point forward....

im age 41....was anyone else my age or younger taught in high school not to expect anything from SS? ...just wondering how wide spread this teaching was???

maybe i had the only social studies teacher that was honest and realistic?

most people who are retiring say the same thing 'i will retire when SS kicks in'...regardless of how much $$ they have saved in their own IRA...my comment was that no one will wait for SS in 20 years...because SS will not exist....i will have paid for 45 years into SS and receive nothing........but i will have a warm heart thinking of all those i helped,not....i will be thinking about how the baby boomers screwed their kids and grand kids...

Harold Mansfield
08-13-2012, 01:04 PM
I'm not a big fan of taking tax money and playing it on the stock market. This is how the economy collapsed in the first place. Banks using FDIC backed deposits, writing bad paper on Gov backed mortgages and when it all feel out, the tax payer had to cover it.

I'm not doing that again. I'm too old. I don't have another decase to waste getting back to even.

billbenson
08-13-2012, 02:09 PM
Privatizing SS would just make it a profit center for large companies just like insurance. They are both socialistic concepts, just like the name says (social). Insurance companies try their hardest to cancel you or not pay when you get sick. Privatized SS would do the same. Both belong in government control, rather than trying to make money for wall street investors.

Harold Mansfield
08-13-2012, 02:59 PM
Privatizing SS would just make it a profit center for large companies just like insurance. They are both socialistic concepts, just like the name says (social). Insurance companies try their hardest to cancel you or not pay when you get sick. Privatized SS would do the same. Both belong in government control, rather than trying to make money for wall street investors.

I couldn't agree more. The Government should be in charge of everything that it owns. How the people who are elected to run the Government, sell this BS that we should let other people run things, that they are supposed to be running is the biggest con job that I have ever seen.

Where else in the world can you hire someone, and then they tell you that you should pay someone else to do their job, while you still pay them a salary?

If I could get hired as a bartender, while telling club owners that all of the bartenders suck and you should keep us on, but outsource all of your bartenders to a staffing agency ( that my buddy owns) that would be the best scam in the business.

huggytree
08-13-2012, 03:36 PM
how about letting me choose whether to be in SS or not?

who here would choose to keep paying into it?

how about options for people to choose? if you want to stay safe then have the gov. give you an option for it

how did we survive w/o SS from 1776 until 1940 without it? somehow we did....some how we can do it again and be better off for it....all that wealth taken out of the economy my whole life....all gone....i could have bought a couple of new cars with that money and employed a few workers for a few weeks.....

any time you give gov. money to save for YOU they wont SAVE IT....they will SPEND IT....its how gov. works..

huggytree
08-13-2012, 03:42 PM
I couldn't agree more. The Government should be in charge of everything that it owns. How the people who are elected to run the Government, sell this BS that we should let other people run things, that they are supposed to be running is the biggest con job that I have ever seen.




Govt. is necessary....we need it for the military.....to build roads and bridges....but we dont need it to do much else...

do you think the smartest people are in govt. or business?

do you think the people who run for office are smarter than anyone else? or mostly not so smart?

i think the original founders were the smartest people around at the time...well educated and deep thinkers....but that was the only time in our history...i think everyone since has been average or below......i dont want them to handle anything of mine.....id rather they sub it out.

how about i keep my SS money and do what i want with it....i dont need anyones help

Harold Mansfield
08-13-2012, 03:49 PM
how did we survive w/o SS from 1776 until 1940 without it?
We didn't. You got old, you died. Life expectancy in the 1800's was 50, if you were lucky.

Poor elderly is still a problem, but it was a worse problem up through the 60's.



any time you give gov. money to save for YOU they wont SAVE IT....they will SPEND IT....its how gov. works..

And that doesn't bother me as long as they are spending it wisely to provide the support system that I need to get ahead. Education, Infrastructure, Research and Development, and keeping a certain amount of rules in place so that you don't risk your life plugging in the coffee maker, or risk driving 80 MPH (cause there is no speed limit) next to a 60 ton truck riding on tires made for a 2 ton truck.

I agree with you about waste and it's been a problem for generations. The Government is an easy target for fraud too. But the government provides a lot of safety and security that many of us take for granted, and make it possible for most of us to even be in business, let alone alive.

Take my electrical appliance example. Most of us don't even think about it anymore. We just trust that anything sold is mandated a certain safety level. Well who do you think does that?

I'm from Detroit. I remember when the air quality was so bad that cities like Detroit, Cleavland and Pittsburgh had a constant yellow, toxic haze over them. Who do you think cleaned that up? GM? No, the government.

Please spend my money doing more of that.

StefanT
08-13-2012, 03:51 PM
I do not think I would really retire, just hope to get to a point where i have developed my business in such a way that it allows me to enjoy the fun part of it more and have the stressful, boring parts successfully "managed-away" :)

billbenson
08-13-2012, 05:39 PM
how about letting me choose whether to be in SS or not?

who here would choose to keep paying into it?

how about options for people to choose? if you want to stay safe then have the gov. give you an option for it


Because SS is a socialized concept. Everybody pays in and those that really need it get the most out of it. It may not be in your retirement plan, but some little old lady who has made $25K all her life and worked hard needs it badly. Same thing if some kid is born with an incurable desiese. I bet they can't get insurance. But they should. Any you, because you are in good health never need insurance. That's life.

To be blunt quit thinking about yourself and think about others. Nothing personal and I know you have thick skin, but think about it!

Steve B
08-13-2012, 10:40 PM
It's ironic that HT wouldn't even have a business if it wasn't for all the government influence in our construction industry. There would be no need for a licensed plumber because there wouldn't be any regulations to learn and follow. Anybody could be a plumber that could connect PVC and understood gravity. Just get the crap out of the house and into the street or local stream.

huggytree
08-18-2012, 07:54 AM
It's ironic that HT wouldn't even have a business if it wasn't for all the government influence in our construction industry. There would be no need for a licensed plumber because there wouldn't be any regulations to learn and follow. Anybody could be a plumber that could connect PVC and understood gravity. Just get the crap out of the house and into the street or local stream.

actually its the union that made it possible....the union pressuring govt. for a license to do plumbing.....when anyone does plumbing things go wrong and people die

that little old lady who made $25k all her life and now has nothing for retirement made poor life decisions and will have to live with her children when she can no longer work...her children will suffer and they will learn the lesson of saving for retirement

i do agree that the govt. should take care of handicap people. Anyone can be born Handicapped and anyone can become Handicapped...they didnt choose it....give them govt. handouts...............but no hand outs to people who are able bodied....no hand outs for poor decisions

huggytree
08-18-2012, 07:59 AM
To be blunt quit thinking about yourself and think about others. Nothing personal and I know you have thick skin, but think about it!

typically in these situations im thinking of my kids, not myself....ill do just fine..........

i am also thinking of all the people who UNLIKE me havent saved enough for retirement.....they are 60 and have $100k saved....and now expect ME to support them....they over indulged in life instead of saving 20% of their income for retirement.

Ive already paid into SS 1/2 my adult life.......id love to kill it before my kids have to start paying into it....before another generation pays into something that they will get nothing from.

Harold Mansfield
08-18-2012, 10:48 AM
typically in these situations im thinking of my kids, not myself....ill do just fine.........

i am also thinking of all the people who UNLIKE me havent saved enough for retirement.....they are 60 and have $100k saved....and now expect ME to support them....they over indulged in life instead of saving 20% of their income for retirement.

I'd like to say I'm just stunned at your attitude, but I'm not. You are no more special than everyone else who's paid into the system their entire working life. There is no "me". YOU aren't supporting anyone and the taxes that you pay in SSI a paycheck or a month, isn't enough for you to claim superiority that your money alone is doing anything for anyone.

That horse is far to high.

I could make the same argument. Why should I have to pay for someone else's kids to get an education? I don't have kids, I didn't make the
decision to have them, so why is my money going for schools that I don't use?



Ive already paid into SS 1/2 my adult life.......id love to kill it before my kids have to start paying into it....before another generation pays into something that they will get nothing from.

Social Security was working just fine before Congress borrowed from it in the 80's and never paid it back. The same goes for Medicare, the way it was set up, it was fine to be solvent forever.

But we have this political tactic in Washington where if you don't like something, you systematically take money from it, until it starts sputtering and then you run around saying how it doesn't work. And that's what has been done to BOTH programs.


<br>actually its the union that made it possible....the union pressuring
govt. for a license to do plumbing.....when anyone does plumbing things
go wrong and people die

Actually, the Government came first, going back to the 1800's. It's because of City planners, engineers, tax dollars, investment in infrastructure and government workers that any municipality even has water and waste treatment, plumbing and regulations regarding construction. The union came along after the infrastructure was already built and merely bid on the contract to keep it maintained or work the area.




that little old lady who made $25k all her life and now has nothing for retirement made poor life decisions and will have to live with her children when she can no longer work...her children will suffer and they will learn the lesson of saving for retirement

I love that attitude, "Make people suffer and they'll learn".

Why are there so many people out there that think they can wrap up everyone elses life as poor decisions without the benefit of ANY facts about the situation? What if that old lady was the teacher who taught your kids? Or the EMT that saved your life in an auto accident? There are a lot of people out there that we depend on and take for granted and they don't get paid much.

What if she made $100k her whole life, did save 30%, and had a great portfolio and at age 50 her husband died, her investments tanked because she was with a major firm that went belly up, and one of her kids got sick and she spent her savings trying to save his life? That's your attitude? She made poor decisions?

These things happen to people. And it just recently happened to millions of Americans who did the right thing, got an education, save for retirement and they lost it all. It JUST happened. They had no control over other people committing fraud and exploting the market out of greed.

You have no idea what people's story is. And honestly, it's not even your call to make.

It's our money together that makes it work. And everyone is entitled to what they invested in. You don't get to make the "my money" argument, because thier investment is NOT "your money". It's their money.


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i do agree that the govt. should take care of handicap people. Anyone can be born Handicapped and anyone can become Handicapped...they didnt
choose it....give them govt. handouts...............but no hand outs to people who are able bodied....no hand outs for poor decisions


Again, you can't wrap everyone's life that you don't agree with into a convenient "poor decisions" argument, that absolves you from caring or understanding what the real issues are.

Most of us want to fix the problem. Not point the finger at the people who've been exploited by it.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying lazy people don't exist. But I'm not talking about them. We don't have a system that rewards lazy people. An abled bodied person can't just sit back and collect a "hand out". Thanks to Bill Clinton, help is temporary and there is a work or job traning requirement.

I don't support anything that punishes people with real problems by cherrypicking a few people out that may be exploiting the system, as the excuse to wash our hands from caring about other human beings. I can't sit in church every Sunday with that attitude.

If we can support an entire society of billionaire miliitary contractors and farmers that get paid NOT to grow food, and more and more tax breaks, but only for certain people with the most....we can certainly put support systems in place and keep them strong to help our fellow man and fellow Americans when they get screwed.

That person that gets a hand up and becomes a product buying, tax paying memeber of society, will rent from the management company that hires me to build thier webpage. Thier wife may hire me to help set up her home based business, now that they have a home to run it form. Thier kids may be the next software engineer that creates a product that helps my company grow.

We are all connected. People aren't throw aways just because they weren't afforded the same path that you took and weren't lucky enough not to ever have a life changing tragedy, or have to get over PTSD from fighting in OUR wars.

Business Attorney
08-18-2012, 11:14 PM
[Standing up clapping for Harold]

Steve B
08-18-2012, 11:57 PM
Even if your last response about the union is correct - you still helped make my point! Who was it again that the union pressured to require licensing? According to your statement above, the union pressured the gov't. to require licensing. And, apparently, the government responded in a favorable manor and along with the licensing set up lots of rules and regulations AND government enforcment agencies to prevent "anyone" from doing plumbing and, therefore, saves us from loss of life. I'm O.K. with you giving your union brothers partial credit, but without the governement your profession would not exist in anything close to the same safe, effective, and professional manner.

Pack-Secure
08-19-2012, 10:37 PM
At this point I don't plan on ever retiring. I am having too much fun working. I would assume when it stops being fun and there is enough money in the retirement fund, then perhaps I will give it more thought.

Steve B
08-20-2012, 05:25 AM
For anyone intersted, I found what appears to be the origin of the history of plumbing codes and standards. It started in 1926 by a group of Los Angeles city plumbing inspectors. No indication if they were union members or not. They formed an association which accepted input from many sources " “We solicit cooperation of non-member inspectors,public officials, master and journeymen plumbers, manufacturers, supply firms, sanitarians and any others interested in the control of plumbing as a prevention to disease.” So, union members were certainly involved in the development of the code in conjunction with others. The first plumbing code came out in 1931.

Our safe and effective plumbing in the United States seems to be a great example of a role for government (at a minimum for enforcement) and any plumber should at least recognize they wouldn't have the same type of job security and pay without the government's involvement in this industry. Similarly, any citizen or visitor to the U.S. should appreciate the hygeine and safety they are afforded in this country due to the government's involvement in plumbing.

Elabusiness
08-24-2012, 01:47 PM
I am a person who likes to be busy and work, who likes to have responsibilities etc. And, I believe that is the powerful thing keeps your body up and strong. There will a time that I will decide to retire and that will be the time if only my body cant afford to walk, carry stuff etc.