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billbenson
04-06-2012, 10:09 PM
Someone my wife knows worked at a Goodwill Thrift Store making $8 per hour. She stole a half empty bottle of perfume that was selling for $25 dollars. I don't know her, but my wife says she's a good person, she just did something stupid. Police came and issued her a citation for a court appearance. They have her on video, so there isn't much denying it. My first advice to her was to beg the store manager not to press charges.

I spent 3 years during college looking for shoplifters for Sears. During that time I caught over 300 shoplifters. So I'm somewhat familiar with the law, but that was 35 years ago in a different state.

In my day, what she committed was a misdemeanor. With an attorney, is it likely she could get this reduced to an infraction?

Is there anything she can do in court so she doesn't have to check the "have you ever been arrested" box on a job application?

I know some of you might think screw her, she's a thief; the way we looked at it working at Sears was "are they likely to do it again". At least for low dollar amounts such as this. I agree with that sort of a policy. If they aren't likely to do it again, why ruin their lives. About all this girl is qualified for is working in a retail store. If she has to check the "arrested" box on a job application, she is pretty much unemployable. I'd hate to see that happen in this case.

Business Attorney
04-06-2012, 11:27 PM
You are asking two different questions. As far as negotiating a plea, most prosecutors are pretty reasonable and can find something in their bag of tricks to turn this into something akin to a jaywalking ticket or a ticket for spitting on the sidewalk if she presents an appealing case. You never know, though. She may get someone who hates shoplifters or who simply got up on the wrong side of the bed that day. She should certainly try to get it reduced. She obviously doesn't have a lot of money to spend on an attorney on her $8/hour salary but I do think her odds of getting off are better if she can get an attorney.

Your main question is does she have to check yes on the "have you ever been arrested?" box on a job application. Whether she gets off or not doesn't really change the answer to that question. Either she was arrested or she was not. It my city, they recently changed the city ordinance so that kids caught with a small amount of marijuana get a ticket (like a traffic citation) so that they are not arrested. The fine may be the same and the community service may be the same, but the idea is that they no longer have to check the dreaded box.

If the police didn't take her to the station, book her and take mug shots, it is possible that she was not arrested. If that is the case, it seems that she can answer the specific question "have you ever been arrested?" with a "no."

Of course, there are many different ways that the question can be asked: Have you ever been charged with a crime? Have you ever been convicted of a crime other than a traffic violation? Have you ever been convicted of or pled guilty to a crime other than a traffic offense? Have you ever been convicted in a court for anything other than a traffic misdemeanor? Have you ever been convicted of a felony or misdemeanor other than a traffic violation? Have you ever been convicted for anything other than a traffic violation? Have you ever been charged (plead guilty, nolo contrendere) with any crime other than a traffic violation?

Each one of those is very subtly different from every other one. Depending on how it is asked, she will always need to read and answer the question carefully. She also needs to know that many employers who will hire someone even if they answer yes to the question on the employment application have a policy of immediately terminating anyone who is discovered to have been untruthful on the application,

Steve B
04-07-2012, 06:35 AM
It's all but illegal to ask "have you ever been arrested" on a job application. The question is usually posed as "have you ever been convicted of a felony?" The reason for the distinction is that minorities are arrested in disproportionate numbers and also that being "arrested" does not mean that you were guilty. For clarification, the question is NOT illegal, but it creates evidence that might be used against the employer in a failure to hire lawsuit (they would be accused of using a criteria that has disparate impact), so, they usually won't ask it (assuming they have a decent HR person or if they got their application approved by an attorney familiar with labor laws). Disparate impact means they may not have had illegal intentions, but that they were systematically using a criteria that had a negative impact on a protected class of people.

Hopefully, she won't be convicted and, if she is, it won't be in the category of a felony. I'm guessing since the value is so low it may not be considered a felony. They might ask about non-felony convictions, but on the applications I've seen it seems to be limited to only felonies.

So, her future employment options may not be as limited as you think.

I hope this helps.

billbenson
04-07-2012, 01:53 PM
Thanks guys. That does help.

huggytree
04-07-2012, 03:39 PM
how old is she?

if she's young (20's) id cut her some slack....if she's 30+ id show her no mercy.....older people should know better.....the older i get the more i always do everything the right way.....maybe its because i have young kids, but i live pretty close to a 100% moral life....in my 20's that wasnt the case....i was still good, but not as good as i am now.....

shop lifting is something i did at age 12(i think i took a pack of gum)......its nothing id ever consider now.

billbenson
04-07-2012, 04:35 PM
I'd expect that reaction from you Huggy, but I don't agree. Like I said, I have caught over 300 shoplifters. Drug addicts, career criminals, kids, cashier line was to long, thrill seekers, etc. I've been punched, had my foot run over a car with someone trying to get away. A friend of mine caught a mayors wife stealing once.

Every situation is unique and needs to be looked at that way. This girl is in her 20's. While IMO all kids steal something at some point, this really should not be treated as an age issue. You need to look at each issue individually. In my job at sears we were call "loss prevention". That didn't imply arresting everyone that shoplifted.

So, from your way of thinking, you would rather take away her ability to get a job. What's that going to do. She may be forced to steal to survive. Is that in societies best interest?

Adults do stupid thing too!

huggytree
04-08-2012, 09:17 AM
my reaction agree's with YOU.....she's in her 20's and did something stupid...cut her some slack

if she was 40 id assume she has had a lifetime of doing it.....id show her no mercy

i doubt anything you'd do would take away her ability to get a job...and i doubt she'd have to steal to survive

society's best interest is to identify the trash and punish it..........and reward the person who does things correctly

in my world i dont see too many shades of grey......most situations are black and white......Bill dont become one of those people who only see grey w/ no right and wrong

billbenson
04-08-2012, 02:38 PM
most situations are black and white

A lot of situations are black and white but not most regarding shoplifters.


if she was 40 id assume she has had a lifetime of doing it.....id show her no mercy

That's a really bad assumption. Things happen in peoples lives that cause them to do stupid things. A guy palms a 3 dollar socket in hardware because there is a long line at the cashier. It completely depends on how he reacts, what his background is, if he's been arrested before as to what I would do. Maybe arrest him, maybe not.

Harold Mansfield
04-08-2012, 07:40 PM
She didn't just shoplift, she stole from a charity. And even worse it was something trivial. Perfume.
I'm almost sure they won't throw her in the slammer, but stealing from a charity is kind of the disgust double whammy.

As for your other question:


Is there anything she can do in court so she doesn't have to check the "have you ever been arrested" box on a job application?
She has to answer it truthfully. These days they can find the answer out pretty easily, and will probably already know the answer if you get called for an interview. Even if you get arrested by mistake, or for protesting with Greenpeace. It's still an arrest. That's why the question is BS.

No since in blowing the job for lying on the application. Getting arrested and charged for shoplifting from a charity is going to be a tough one to live down in a job interview.

Probably best to just face that one head on, rather than trying to come up with a bunch of excuses about why. At least that's how I would play it.

But merely getting arrested doesn't mean anything. It's the "Have you ever been convicted of a crime ( or felony)", that's the big question.

billbenson
04-08-2012, 09:25 PM
I think David and Steve B covered what the realities are pretty well at the beginning of this thread.

As far a s a "charity", Goodwill may legally qualify but they don't act like one. My wife does her deal shopping tour once or more a week hitting discount stores, thrift stores etc. There are about 6 goodwill stores within the tour zone.

Goodwill operates very much like a for profit company. To the point we don't donate to them. We do give stuff we don't use to thrift stores, but not goodwill. They are not getting the donations they need so they are reselling Walmart products mixed in with used products. As my wife is a "super shopper" she looks up the prices of goods online when she is shopping. The Walmart products are priced equal or greater than the Walmart price in most cases. Many donated used items are priced above retail. Of course the junk items are priced cheap in most cases.

A few weeks ago my wife found a designer handbag priced at $75. She sent me a picture and asked me to see if it was real or a knock off. There are sites online to see if they are knock offs. It was a very obvious made in china copy.

This varies from goodwill to goodwill and deals can still be found. It is however so common that I don't want my donated stuff sold there!

</ goodwill rant >

lucas.bowser
04-09-2012, 09:27 AM
Goodwill is not a classic charity. The mission of Goodwill is not to provide people with bargains. It's primary mission is to take people who have little to no employment skills, train them and integrate them back into the for-profit retail sector of our economy. You can't do this by operating like a traditional charity. It simply wouldn't work with their mission. This is the reason Wal-mart and other retailers donate their unsold goods to to Goodwill. Because they are educating the next group of Walmart checkers and workers on a continuous basis at a scale needed to sustain their low-cost models. In that regards, it's a synergistic charity for chain retailers. BTW... Most Goodwills receive more than enough items to keep their stores stocked without needing the Wal-mart surplus. It just happens that the Wal-mart surplus is often in better shape than what they receive in donations and so it takes the place of those donations out on the floor.

Pricing policies between Goodwill stores vary, and they definitely vary by region as they are organized with a decentralized leadership structure, split into different zones to best meet the needs of the areas they are serving. Other thrift stores operate on different principles. Some want to make sure that reasonable quality, gently used items go to the public that can't afford them new. Some operate as for-profit ventures, purchasing their wares and re-selling them. Some operate as a giant upscale garage sale, with the proceeds going to meet basic human needs in the community. They all have their place, you just have to decide which of those you want to support with your donations. Personally I give to the last one, but don't fault anyone who chooses to give to Goodwill instead.

billbenson
04-09-2012, 10:48 AM
It's primary mission is to take people who have little to no employment skills, train them and integrate them back into the for-profit retail sector of our economy.

The Goodwill stores in our area have plenty of employees that have been there for 10 years or more. The economy doesn't help, but many people seem to consider it a career.

Interesting post though, Lucas. I didn't know that was Goodwills Mission.