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View Full Version : MSIE 9 Has anyone uninstalled it and gone back to MSIE 8?



Russ in Vancouver
05-19-2011, 07:05 PM
I just installed the stupid Fupdate and boy am I ever disapointed with IE9.

It hangs, it wont display a website until I refresh it several times.

I need to go back to IE8

Does anyone know how to go about this process?

Thanks

billbenson
05-20-2011, 12:19 AM
switch to linux :)

Spider
05-20-2011, 10:46 AM
Gone are the days when companies made a new product and thoroughly tested it before releasing it to the public. Now-a-days, the public is the testbed!

I never install a new version of anything I am currently using until sufficient time has passed for the bugs to have been discovered and corrected. That is often when they have started talking about next version beyond the new version to which I haven't upgraded yet! I managed to miss the joys of Vista entirely, going from XP directly to W-7.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

As for going back to MSIE 8 - I have no idea. Sorry.

Russ in Vancouver
05-20-2011, 03:02 PM
Hi there,

Bill, if I knew what a linux was, id consider it :P

Frederick, these damn O/S are so invasive, just like spam!! My pc told me that it was a recommended update so I updated it and holy cow it wasted my whole afternoon.

Have a great weekend guys!!

nealrm
05-20-2011, 05:52 PM
I have to say I also don't like IE9. It doesn't display many sites properly and causes some to fail. I switch over to the new Chrome. It really work well.

MyITGuy
05-21-2011, 08:59 AM
Switch to Firefox =D

Mozilla Firefox Web Browser | Free Download (http://getfirefox.com)

Seriously though, this page should help you out:
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows7/how-do-i-install-or-uninstall-internet-explorer-9

Harold Mansfield
05-21-2011, 12:01 PM
Switch to Firefox =D

Mozilla Firefox Web Browser | Free Download (http://getfirefox.com)

Seriously though, this page should help you out:
How do I install or uninstall Internet Explorer 9? (http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows7/how-do-i-install-or-uninstall-internet-explorer-9)

I agree. Dump IE altogether. I haven't used it in years and never load it up unless I absolutely have to.
I have never had a problem with a FF update.

cbscreative
05-23-2011, 12:05 PM
Although I'd agree with switching to either FF or Chrome, you'll still need IE once in a while. Updates are made to only work with IE, but like Frederick said, don't install them right away. I've had many incidences of problems getting the updates too early.

I didn't see anyone really answer your original question though. Do a System Restore (Start => All Programs => Accessories => System Tools => System Restore). Choose a Restore point before the Update was made and it will reset your browser back to IE8.

This process will not delete any data. If anything has been installed after the Restore point, you will need to reinstall it because it gets rid of that too. Your data is safe, but backing up anyway is always recommended.

Spider
05-23-2011, 01:55 PM
Just for the record - and I don't want Russell to think he is the only person using IE - I use IE and like it better than FireFox and Safari (haven't tried chrome, and won't because I don't trust mama-G.) Contrary to many people on this board, I think IE is a far superior browser. I chose IE over Netscape way back and haven't found any iteration of Mozilla browsers to come up to the quality of IE browsers. Stick with it, Russell! Don't let these MS-haters push you around!!!!

seolman
05-23-2011, 05:30 PM
Frederick...Obiwon once thought as you did...

cbscreative
05-24-2011, 11:21 AM
In the interest of full disclosure, my primary browser is Opera. It's a lot lesser known, but none of the others are as well designed IMO. It has only one problem, but the problem is not Opera itself. Not all sites work with Opera. Constant Contact for example only works with IE and FF, and the same is true for Netflix, but I think the latter does work with Chrome. Other than some arrogant sites that think they're too good to support multiple browsers, Opera is a great experience. You just need to be willing to put up with an occasional "Sorry your browser isn't supported" message where you can decide if it's worth launching IE for or not.

Russ in Vancouver
05-24-2011, 01:13 PM
Hi everyone, thanks for the different perspectives, it is interesting to know that many ppl do not use msie. I always test viewed my websites during construction in msie and just started to check them in ff recently. Does anyone know if dw cs5 build the HTML for a specific browser, is there a way to choose specific browser to build for?

Spider
05-24-2011, 02:01 PM
I always thought "building for" simply meant using that browser primarily when writing and checking the code one writes. Do you mean you can designate which browser you want the code to work with?

Russ in Vancouver
05-24-2011, 02:20 PM
Hi Spider,

I like IE as well, I have tried chrome and FF and wasn't really drawn to it. I use a web based program that prefers FF so I do use FF once in a while. Still, neither FF or chrome gave me a good reason to switch to what I am used to using all these years. It is just like what you said, wait until all the bugs are worked out before you install something new.


I always thought "building for" simply meant using that browser primarily when writing and checking the code one writes. Do you mean you can designate which browser you want the code to work with?

This is my question as well, one would figure that the software could probably do this. Build sites that will function better in a certain browser as they allhave slight differences and would probably prefer things to be coded a certain way to make them run better and not show any errors on the surfing persons computer.

My understanding of web development is only simple html and wysiwyg.

Spider
05-24-2011, 05:13 PM
I think I understand. It seems you are using some form of software to write your code and create your webpages, right? I don't. I write raw html code (currently taking on css, slowly) using Notepad - a plain and simple text editor, producing .txt files.

tylerhutchinson
05-24-2011, 07:45 PM
I switched to Firefox after MSIE 8. Never regretted it. IE is out of date and much slower than Firefox.

nealrm
05-24-2011, 08:15 PM
Great now there are 2 IE users here. I though this forum had standards that were upheld.

In general I did like IE. However the latest revision doesn't appear complete. It has a rushed, copy the others feel to it. I'm hoping a minor upgrade will come out and smooth down some edges.

nealrm
05-24-2011, 08:20 PM
Frederick - You can detect browsers using Javascript and disable or enable features based on the browser. CSS also allows you to format differently based on browser, screen size, media and some other items.

Spider
05-24-2011, 09:06 PM
I switched to Firefox after MSIE 8. Never regretted it. IE is out of date and much slower than Firefox.Perhaps it is correct to say *you* find IE-8 out of date and slower than FF, but on my machines, in my town, by cable, IE is noticeably faster than FF. As for being out-of-date, I wonder what up-to-date amounts to? Browsers do what they do, they are all different and people have different preferences.

I prefer MSIE, probably for all the same reasons you prefer FF.

nealrm
05-24-2011, 10:14 PM
Browser are up to date on how they handle recent revisions to HTML, CSS, javascript, security features and other items. For example, IE8 cannot handle HTML5. So if you were to access a page written using HTML5 with IE some functionality would be lost or site might not even display.

billbenson
05-24-2011, 10:45 PM
The nature of open source allows FF to be more up to date and have more features on a regular basis than IE. People from around the world work on the FF code and plugin's. Thats something that is not possible for MS. They come out with a new version as much as they can which is about once a year. They also always release the new versions before they are completely tested which is why they always have bug fixes. FF and others have the same issue but not to the same degree.

Since IE is closed source and only ms can add features, very useful plugins for different sectors are not possible or practical for IE. FF has plugins for web designers, photographers and about every other niche you can think of.

Spider, I would speculate that you never researched plugin's that may help you for FF.

Many people feel that IE is getting more standards compliant, reliable, easy to use, and faster. That's good.

You still won't find many web designers that don't design for FF first and IE second. That is because its easier for an open source product to stay compliant not to mention all the web design plugin's.

cbscreative
05-24-2011, 10:47 PM
Hi everyone, thanks for the different perspectives, it is interesting to know that many ppl do not use msie. I always test viewed my websites during construction in msie and just started to check them in ff recently. Does anyone know if dw cs5 build the HTML for a specific browser, is there a way to choose specific browser to build for?

DW introduced its Live Preview feature in CS4. It's not specific to any browser, but attempts to render pages in a "generic" average that is "standards compliant." This pretty much covers most browsers and devices other than IE, but even IE has some level of compliance. Since MS has a nasty habit of doing whatever they want, their willingness to comply with standards has been the bane of web developers for years.

The Live Preview in DW may or may not be what shows in IE. The only way to know is to test in IE. The Live Preview is fairly reliable for testing if everything outside of IE will display correctly. If both Live Preview and IE render an acceptable result, you should be in pretty good shape.

Russ in Vancouver
05-24-2011, 11:00 PM
Thank you bill for that excellent post, I am going to give FF a shot for the next few weeks. I did not know it was open source. One thing, does anyone know why I cannot get the same bookmarks as I have in IE? I was assuming FF was accessing the bookmarks from the same folder that IE does. but my FF bookmarks are all dated and incomplete.

Thanks for that explanation cbs :)

Spider
05-24-2011, 11:26 PM
... Spider, I would speculate that you never researched plugin's that may help you for FF...That's correct, Bill. But the only plugins I might look for would be to make FF more like IE - and where's the point in that? That doesn't mean there are no plugins that I could use, if I knew what existed, but there's nothing I can think of that I want FF to do other than be more like IE. As IE does that satisfactorily, I see no need to change.

Change is great when there's something to gain but change for change sake is a little pointless, don't you think?

MyITGuy
05-25-2011, 05:34 PM
Thank you bill for that excellent post, I am going to give FF a shot for the next few weeks. I did not know it was open source. One thing, does anyone know why I cannot get the same bookmarks as I have in IE? I was assuming FF was accessing the bookmarks from the same folder that IE does. but my FF bookmarks are all dated and incomplete.

Thanks for that explanation cbs :)

IE and FF maintain their own bookmarks. You can reimport your settings from IE by opening FF --> File --> Import and follow the wizard.

billbenson
05-25-2011, 10:07 PM
That's correct, Bill. But the only plugins I might look for would be to make FF more like IE - and where's the point in that? That doesn't mean there are no plugins that I could use, if I knew what existed, but there's nothing I can think of that I want FF to do other than be more like IE. As IE does that satisfactorily, I see no need to change.

Change is great when there's something to gain but change for change sake is a little pointless, don't you think?

If you don't research what features a new product has and insist that what you are using is the best you might as well be playing ping pong in the dark. Would you suggest that someone starting a business do it exactly the way you did or do you suggest that they fully investigate the business and all options. You are making a judgment of what is best without even having a clue of what something else can do.

Spider
05-26-2011, 02:34 PM
If you don't research what features a new product has and insist that what you are using is the best you might as well be playing ping pong in the dark. Would you suggest that someone starting a business do it exactly the way you did or do you suggest that they fully investigate the business and all options. You are making a judgment of what is best without even having a clue of what something else can do.Did I say IE was best? I hope not. If I did, I apologize - I mean, best for me. - I like it best - it suits the way I work - it looks better to me - it produces better results for me.

Would I suggest that someone starting a business do it exactly the way I did or do I suggest that they fully investigate the business and all options? I would expect them to investigate their options, yes. But if they were starting an American automobile service business, I would not recommend they investigate how well alternative analyzing equipment worked with foreign cars. If they had a vehicle lift that could only lift up to two tons and they did not anticipate working on vehicles heavier than that, I wlould not recommend them to investigate another type of vehicle lift that could lift up to 10 tons.

Firefox may have a plugin that allows a visitor to change the colors on a website, but I have no use for that. Maybe FF has a plugin that can deliver a webpage sideways - I have no need for that, either. Truly, I cannot think of anything I would like to do on the WWW that I cannot already do in IE. If you have some ideas, Bill, that you could suggest to me, I would happily consider them, but if I don't have a problem, what solution should I be looking for?

vangogh
05-27-2011, 02:49 AM
Truly, I cannot think of anything I would like to do on the WWW that I cannot already do in IE.

There are several thousand Firefox extensions, a growing number of Chrome extensions, and extensions for both Opera and Safari. I find it hard to believe you wouldn't find some of them useful and offer something IE doesn't give you. Have you ever looked through the available extensions? It's not just about trying to solve an existing problem. Some extensions don't necessarily solve a problem, but they can make your browsing easier or more enjoyable in ways you haven't thought of.

It's up to you. If you're happy with IE then keep using it. Have you ever tried another browser for any length of time? If you prefer IE great, but the only way to know that you really prefer IE is to try browsers that aren't IE too.

Since you work developing your own site you really should have as many browsers as possible installed so you can test how your site looks. Whether or not you use them for anything other than testing is up to you, but you should at least see how your site looks across browsers. Also the browsers not named IE have much better development tools both built in and available as extensions that if you genuinely want to learn more about css and web development in general it only makes sense to use some of those tools.

One thing you might also want to consider is that best practice for web development now is based on the idea of progressive enhancement where you develop a site in a way that works on all browsers and then add extras to create a better experience for the browsers than can support more of the standards. In practice what that means is that people viewing a site in IE will get a site that works, but those viewing in another browser will get an enhanced experience.

Again it's up to you which browser you use, but why not at least try some of the others.

MyITGuy
05-27-2011, 06:07 AM
Truly, I cannot think of anything I would like to do on the WWW that I cannot already do in IE. If you have some ideas, Bill, that you could suggest to me, I would happily consider them, but if I don't have a problem, what solution should I be looking for?

Below are a couple of my favorite/recommended add-ons
AdBlock Plus - https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/adblock-plus/ - Does what it says and more. This plugin uses a centrally maintained list to block ads as well as some of the bad anti-virus/spyware sites
Firefox Sync - https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/firefox-sync/ - Have multiple web browsing devices (I.E. Computers and smartphones), or just want a backup of your browser history/passwords, then utilize this add-on to sync your passwords to their service and back to your multiple computers.

There are plenty more available as well that can be tailored to your specific habits. I.E. I see that you maintain your own blog, there is an add-on that can review your post and provide SEO keywords and etc for you to utilize without having to leave your post.

Do you commonly share links that may be a bit on the long side? If so there's an app that utilizes the bit.ly service to shorten the link So you don't have to visit the site), then places the shorter link in your clipboard.

Overall, you can find several extensions that can either save you time or make your experience more pleasant.

Spider
05-27-2011, 11:20 AM
Below are a couple of my favorite/recommended add-ons ....

... Overall, you can find several extensions that can either save you time or make your experience more pleasant.Good. Thank you.

AdBlock - If I understood that video correctly, that add-on is for viewers to install, not website developers. So, you are recommending it for me personally, not to improve the websites I develop. It's a neat trick, but on-site ads don't bother me overmuch, not so much that I would want to switch from MSIE to FF. But thanks for the suggestion.

Firefox Sync - I don't use multiple devices. I use my cellphone as a telephone and my computer as a computer. I have nothing to sync.


I went looking for other add-ons and the only titles that peaked my interest were -

FireFox Tweak - Seems I can change some defaults. Again, it is for the user, not developer. I wasn't clear how this could benefit me.

Disconnect - Stop major third parties from tracking the webpages I go to. That would be interesting.

Restyle - Might be fun, but I could see no real purpose to it.

Noscript - Allows active content to run only from sites you trust, and protects you against XSS and Clickjacking attacks. The first part is automatically provided in MSIE, the last part I don't understand.


Sorry to say, I didn't find anything that would lead me to want to switch. But I am ready to check out any add-ons that anyone thinks might be useful to me. I will check them out and you may hit on something that I *must* have and cause me to ditch Explorer and take on Firefox.

Thank you all for your concern.

vangogh
05-27-2011, 11:47 AM
To provide a little browser and an explanation why most of us who know what we're doing when it comes to web development don't like IE all that much.

Somewhere in the late 1990s we had what's called the browser wars. Everyone wanted you to use their browsers and they all started adding feature x and feature y to entice you. Unfortunately when a web developer coded something to take advantage of feature x in browser 1 it often meant breaking the site in browser 2. As great as some of the features might have been, you had 2 options. Build a site for browser 1 or browser 2 knowing that users of the other wouldn't be able to use your site (remember all the messages about a site requiring a certain browser?) or ignore all the cool features and develop to a least common denominator.

The situation was making it very difficult to build sites. Some people with stakes in all this (browser makers, developers, etc) got together and began developing standards. They formed the world wide web consortium (W3C). The standards are then a guide to browser makers that say when someone places this code on a web page the browser should display it this way.

Standards are a great thing in any industry and web development is no exception.

As browsers started adopting the standards someone like me could come in and learn how to build a web page and website and know what I was learning would or at least should work in all browsers. Unfortunately around the time the standards were being created IE pretty much owned the market for browsers. They owned the market because for a time IE was a better browser, but owning so much market share made them lazy. They didn't bother to follow the standards. They figured they were the standards because of the market share.

As more years went by developers would pick up books on html and css and they'd read tutorials online. As they built web pages they discovered that the code they wrote worked like it should in most browsers with one major exception. Some people instead developed specifically to make their pages work in IE only to find it wouldn't work in any other browser.

A few more years go by and Windows no longer has the same dominant market share. When developing a page you had a choice. Write code according to the rules of the language (html and css) and have it work everywhere except IE and then tweak for IE. Or write the code according to the rules of IE and have the code work in IE and nowhere else and have it be much more difficult to try and tweak. Most developers chose the former.

For years now we've all been building pages and sites, but having to hold back on some of the technology simply because it wouldn't work in IE. It's frustrating to want to use something you know will be beneficial to a site, but can't because of one browser. It's even more frustrating to build a website in a few hours and then have to spend a week to get it working in one browser because that browser won't do what the code says it's supposed to do.

IE has improved a lot from a standards point of view over the years. I'm looking forward to IE9, because it catches up with other browsers in a number of ways where standards are concerned. It still lags in plenty of ways, but at least Microsoft is upgrading it and adhering to more standards. Keep in mind that IE9 is still in beta right now, which could explain any problems people are having with it.

On the non-development side use whatever browser you want. At a basic level all a browser needs to do is display web pages in a time that doesn't seem too long. Most browsers do that well enough. However everything I said about on the development side has some application on the non-development side as well. IE had such a huge market share for a time that Microsoft failed to continue improving it. The other browsers didn't fail. They did improve the browser and while IE is catching up it still lags behind what most other browsers can do.

That doesn't mean you can't use IE. It does the basics. It can open and display a web page in a reasonable amount of time, which is all a browser really needs to do.

vangogh
05-27-2011, 11:52 AM
Frederick none of us are going to spend hours looking through Firefox extensions that you might find useful. There are thousands of them and there are more for other browsers. With that many it's unlikely you would't find any useful and IE does not offer all the functionality of all those extensions. If it tried to it would be a completely bloated browser.

It's clear you have no interest in switching or even in exploring what other browsers might offer. Continue to use IE. You seem to be happy with it, which is fine.

cbscreative
05-27-2011, 11:53 AM
Since you work developing your own site you really should have as many browsers as possible installed so you can test how your site looks. Whether or not you use them for anything other than testing is up to you, but you should at least see how your site looks across browsers. Also the browsers not named IE have much better development tools both built in and available as extensions that if you genuinely want to learn more about css and web development in general it only makes sense to use some of those tools.

One thing you might also want to consider is that best practice for web development now is based on the idea of progressive enhancement where you develop a site in a way that works on all browsers and then add extras to create a better experience for the browsers than can support more of the standards. In practice what that means is that people viewing a site in IE will get a site that works, but those viewing in another browser will get an enhanced experience.

Excellent points. As a web guy, I use multiple computers, operating systems, and browsers to test sites. Sometimes, it's surprising what you find out this way.

One thing my experience has revealed is if a site looks good in IE and Opera, I rarely encounter problems in other browsers that don't show up in one or both of those two. If you're not willing to create a good testing farm, there are web sites out there that will show you your pages in as many different computer/device configurations as you want. If you invest in Dreamweaver, it has built in testing tools.

vangogh
05-27-2011, 12:25 PM
Steve I think a better practice is to develop to the standards and then tweak for any browser not supporting the standards. Your point about testing on multiple browsers and operating systems is right on though. Until you've tested on different browsers you really don't know what your site is going to look like in those browsers.

However, once you've been developing sites for any length of time and testing your code in multiple browsers you start to learn what is and isn't going to work cross browser. I'm sure after so many sites you kind of know without even checking another browser whether your code will work in that browser. You figured out years ago that a snippet of code doesn't work so you don't use it anymore. You've also learned that another snippet of code or some development pattern does work so you know to start with that code or pattern. I'm guessing that's been your experience. You've probably solved the problems that tripped you up years ago and now have less cross browser problems with each new site. Nice what a little experience can do. Wouldn't you agree?

cbscreative
05-27-2011, 01:10 PM
Agreed, vangogh. Yes, I have solved problems this way and I do use tried and true code snippets. Although my troubleshooting time now is much less than several years ago, I still quite often venture into unfamiliar territory. It not only sharpens my skills, I have an aversion to having all my work become routine or looking the same. I would get bored if I didn't keep exploring.

I should probably clarify by stating that I rarely use WordPress or pre-built CMS. I'm not against that method when it suits the need, but I often find CMS frustrating and restrictive. I suppose I could seek solutions to the things I find frustrating and restrictive, but since "everybody" is using WP these days, not using it most of the time is a good way to be different. I have a resource pool of "code" for various structures I usually start out with, but I still on occasion start totally from scratch to break free of my routine and see where the discovery process takes me.

I'm sure I could be more productive in a rut, but I do what I do to avoid the rut. If I suffer a little loss of productivity, at least I'm enjoying it. OK, back on topic now.

vangogh
05-27-2011, 01:26 PM
Oh yeah you have to keep trying new things and learning and running into new problems to solve. That's how we grow and get better at what we do.

I don't find CMS' restrictive at all. They can be when you first start using them and you're unfamiliar with how they work, but once you have experience working with them they can do a lot. When I develop a WordPress theme it still starts with the same html, css, javascript, etc as if WordPress wasn't there. I never have to sacrifice anything in the design in order to put the design on WordPress.

billbenson
05-27-2011, 02:04 PM
cb steve, do you find that have a different type of client because of this approach. What types of sites do you typically do? Do you use databases?

Spider
05-27-2011, 02:10 PM
To provide a little browser and an explanation why most of us who know what we're doing when it comes to web development don't like IE all that much...I read the rest of your post but this opening paragraph tells me we are on a divergent tack. While it is interesting to know your thoughts and dislikes, it doesn't really help me. I like IE for the reasons I like it. We/You are trying to find reasons why I might like Firefox better. Not liking IE doesn't come into it.

I am not asking anyone to go searching for add-ons for me. Presumably you all are using some add-ons (otherwise why would you recommend me to use them?) Perhaps I might find useful what you are already using. But I'm sure you can see the difficulty. If I have never heard of hamburgers and live in a world where hamburgers don't exist, how and why would I try to find hamburgers? What would I be looking for?

billbenson
05-27-2011, 02:50 PM
A better analogy is you have a wine you like and say it tastes the best to you without sampling other wines. Thats fine and you will be happy with your wine. But how do you know you would not be happier with other wines without trying them or educating your pallet?

vangogh
05-27-2011, 03:13 PM
Frederick my post wasn't written for you. It wasn't meant to help you decide what browser to use. I think you've made your decision and aren't open to changing that decision. There were a few comments previously in this thread about developing for browsers and I wanted to offer some history about where those thoughts come from.

As far as the comment about searching for you, I realize you didn't specifically ask anyone to do that, but you did ask for people to give you suggestions about extensions. With several thousand extensions out there that's not easy to do. All I'm saying is before deciding there aren't any out there that you would find useful, you should spend some time looking at what's available. It's hard to believe you couldn't find one extension that would make your browsing easier.

Also as someone who develops his own site to not at least check how that site looks in browsers other than IE makes little sense. And as someone who always says you're interesting in learning more about how to build websites and build them better I would think you'd be interested in tools that could help you in that learning. IE lags far behind all other browsers in the development tools in offers.

It seems to me you've made your decision without exploring any other possibilities. Bill's analogy above is apt. You're free to use IE and if you're happy with it that's great, though why not see what else is out there. You don't have to of course, but if you don't then your opinion about browsers is an uniformed opinion.

One of your posts early in this thread said this:


I think IE is a far superior browser. I chose IE over Netscape way back and haven't found any iteration of Mozilla browsers to come up to the quality of IE browsers. Stick with it, Russell! Don't let these MS-haters push you around!!!!

So your opinion is IE is a superior browser (yes I realize you later amended to that best for you, though in that case you shouldn't be recommending to others as being superior), but that comes without giving other browsers a chance. Comparing to Netscape is meaningless as that browser hasn't been relevant in years. You haven't tried any webkit based browsers and while you mention Mozilla browsers I doubt you've given them a fair chance (My opinion of course. Maybe you have tested them more than I think.)

MyITGuy
05-27-2011, 03:21 PM
Perhaps it is correct to say *you* find IE-8 out of date and slower than FF, but on my machines, in my town, by cable, IE is noticeably faster than FF.


AdBlock - If I understood that video correctly, that add-on is for viewers to install, not website developers. So, you are recommending it for me personally, not to improve the websites I develop. It's a neat trick, but on-site ads don't bother me overmuch, not so much that I would want to switch from MSIE to FF. But thanks for the suggestion.


You are correct, AdBlock is client side and can improve your browsing speed by not downloading images that can consume your bandwidth (Which can address the first item I quoted), and can provide an additional layer of security by not downloading images/cookies/viruses/spyware.


As for being out-of-date, I wonder what up-to-date amounts to? Browsers do what they do, they are all different and people have different preferences.

It is well known that Microsoft only updates their products once a month, and the end user would have to either check for the update or configured Automatic Updates to ensure their browser were up to date. If an exploit were to be identified the day after MS releases their updates, your SOL until the following month.

Other browsers on the other hand have automatic updating enabled by default and check for these updates very frequently (Not sure if it's every time you launch the browser...haven't dived into it too much). Additionally, the turn around time from the developers is deployed quickly, and adopted by users at a higher rate due to the active update notifications.


Overall, its your choice in the end...but to claim that IE is a far superior browser than any other is just ludicrous

Spider
05-27-2011, 05:03 PM
A better analogy is you have a wine you like and say it tastes the best to you without sampling other wines. Thats fine and you will be happy with your wine. But how do you know you would not be happier with other wines without trying them or educating your pallet?That is a better analogy than you probably realize, Bill, because I have sampled other wines - as I have sampled Firefox and Safari (and use them for testing every time I make major changes to my website.) I happen to prefer Riesling wines (German and many California wines) and find French wines too dry. Would you have me constantly drinking French wine when I have already discovered that every French wine I try is sharp to my palate. This has nothing to do with the grape or the vineyard but is entirely due to the legal requirements of the French wine industry. Just as Firefox is stuck with the physical contraints of the old Mosaic/Netscape/Mozilla character from which it derived. It does not suit my palate.

I will take a Chardonney with a little 7-Up (for sweetness) - possible analogy: Firefox with an add-on of some sort - but that doesn't make the Chardonnay + 7-Up better than an equivalent Piesporter, it only makes it better than straight Chardonnay. For me.

But I am prepared to persevere, if someone can suggest a few other Firefox add-ons I might try. (Just as I am prepared to try your favorite French wine if it is sweeter than normal.)

Spider
05-27-2011, 05:18 PM
...It is well known that Microsoft only updates their products once a month, and the end user would have to either check for the update or configured Automatic Updates to ensure their browser were up to date. If an exploit were to be identified the day after MS releases their updates, your SOL until the following month.
.. Other browsers on the other hand have automatic updating enabled by default and check for these updates very frequently (Not sure if it's every time you launch the browser...haven't dived into it too much). Additionally, the turn around time from the developers is deployed quickly, and adopted by users at a higher rate due to the active update notifications. I didn't know that MS only update their products once per month. I have a Toshiba with W-7, and a HP with XP, and both of those update automatically and neither required me to configure anything - it happened straight out of the box in both cases. (And I believe so on my wifes HP with XP.) And certainly more than once per month - I remarked to myself just the other day, "I wonder why these guys at Microsoft have to keep updating this stuff every two days or so! Can't they get it right first time?!)

vangogh
05-27-2011, 05:39 PM
I recommend some of these addons (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/?browse=featured).

Seriously none of us can make recommendations for you since we don't know what you might like. It's pointless for us to recommend the addons we like. It's just throwing out random things. If you can give us some idea of what you'd find useful do so and then maybe we can make recommendations. Otherwise go to the link above. There are categories of addons you can browse and there's s search box in the upper right if you want to see if something specific is there.

And just to be clear I think you should use whatever browser you like the most. I don't have problem with you using IE. Just don't go around saying it's a superior browser, when by every measure of a browser it isn't. The only measure you've suggested where it's better is your own personal liking. However that measure isn't an objective one.

Here's a page I found that ran through a variety of tests to benchmark browsers (http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1610/). It looks like it covers many of the common tests for measuring browser performance.

You'll notice the only test IE performs well on is the one test Microsoft created to specifically test frame rates and even there it's hardly much better than other stable browsers. In general IE comes out last on most of these tests. On the bright side you'll notice IE9 does show significant improvements over IE8 in most of these tests. In fact IE9 catches up significantly to the other browser. I'm actually excited to see IE9 and I hope it gains widespread adoption for IE users quickly.

Again if you prefer IE that's great. I think you should use it if it works for you. But please stop saying it's a superior browser. It's not by any objective measure. It's catching up in many ways, but it still falls behind other browsers.

cbscreative
05-27-2011, 05:54 PM
cb steve, do you find that have a different type of client because of this approach. What types of sites do you typically do? Do you use databases?

I service a fairly wide range of clients, but there is one characteristic that most share; they prefer full service with minimal management on their end. That doesn't mean a database isn't required, but most of sites I work on don't need one except for some functions like form handling. The majority of my clients are service based rather than product based, and their sites are "small" and easy to manage. When and if that changes, I'd lean more toward CMS and dynamic content, but so far, the need is minimal.

In a sense, I really do use a CMS since I set things up very well organized and it even forms something of a database, it just doesn't technically fall under CMS. Since I could implement a design change across 20 or 30+ pages in a matter of seconds, that offers the same advantage a CMS has.

I've also found that the appeal of CMS is not always the good idea it appears to be. Many times when clients want to manage their own content or have a staff person do it, they can be their own worst enemy. Content that is written from the insider perspective does not automatically appeal to the audience they are trying to reach. I've also found that when clients want to add images, they very often require work the person posting them would not know how to do. There are zillions of sites that are unnecessarily bogged down because CMS allowed the owners to put in unoptimized images with huge file sizes.

IOW, the great thing about WP is it allows almost anyone to build a web site; and the worst thing about WP is it allows almost anyone to build a web site.

cbscreative
05-27-2011, 05:59 PM
I'm actually excited to see IE9 and I hope it gains widespread adoption for IE users quickly.

That's not likely to happen. IE9 is also the first browser to drop compatibility for XP. You need to be on Vista or W7 to run IE9.

vangogh
05-27-2011, 06:24 PM
True, but Microsoft has dropped support for XP so sooner or later it'll fall out of use.

Spider
05-27-2011, 06:39 PM
Frederick my post wasn't written for you. It wasn't meant to help you decide what browser to use. I think you've made your decision and aren't open to changing that decision. There were a few comments previously in this thread about developing for browsers and I wanted to offer some history about where those thoughts come from...I am quite open to changing my browser if I can find a good reason for doing so. I stand corrected on your purpose and did find the history you outlined to be as understand it, too.



... As far as the comment about searching for you, I realize you didn't specifically ask anyone to do that, but you did ask for people to give you suggestions about extensions. With several thousand extensions out there that's not easy to do. All I'm saying is before deciding there aren't any out there that you would find useful, you should spend some time looking at what's available. It's hard to believe you couldn't find one extension that would make your browsing easier...An indication of the add-ons they find useful themselves would be a start. As for me looking through those thousands of add-ons - as I keep saying, I don't know what to look for because I don't have a problem to solve or a need to satisfy. Not to mention the cryptic nature of the titles that don't jump out as "something I might find userful."



... Also as someone who develops his own site to not at least check how that site looks in browsers other than IE makes little sense. And as someone who always says you're interesting in learning more about how to build websites and build them better I would think you'd be interested in tools that could help you in that learning. IE lags far behind all other browsers in the development tools in offers...(1) As noted here and elsewhere, I do use other browsers for testing. (2) As noted above, all the add-ons I looked at happened to be for the end-user, not developer use. As I write my code in Notepad, I'm not sure what other "tools" might be useful, especially as I wasn't lucky enough to hit on any developer-side add-ons when I went looking. (3) I'm not even aware of development tools that MS offers, as behind as they may be. The only development tool I use is Notepad. What development tools are you referring to?



... It seems to me you've made your decision without exploring any other possibilities...On the contrary, I have explored the other browsers - and found them lacking. I have stated repeatedly on these forum that I have tried these other browsers and don't like them, and that I use them for testing and modify my code to take into account the anomalies that I find in them. These remarks are common enough in these forum, but I am always being depicted as refusing to consider anything other than what I like. That is just not true. With the exception of Chrome, of course, and you know I am not going to try that, no matter how good it is.

It seems to me that whenever we all get into this discussion, it centers around everyone trying to convince me and other MSIE users that we should not be using IE and should be using Firefox, because "people who know what they are doing" (like we don't know what we are doing, I suppose!) all use FireFox. You all see me as being stubborn no less than I see you all as being stubborn. We each like what we like and we each find the browser we like as superior to the others. Of course we find it superior otherwise we wouldn't be using it as a base application. I don't see that as a problem, although many do.



... So your opinion is IE is a superior browser (yes I realize you later amended to that best for you, though in that case you shouldn't be recommending to others as being superior), but that comes without giving other browsers a chance. Comparing to Netscape is meaningless as that browser hasn't been relevant in years. You haven't tried any webkit based browsers and while you mention Mozilla browsers I doubt you've given them a fair chance (My opinion of course. Maybe you have tested them more than I think.)As long as you and others can call Firefox superior because you think it is, I reserve the right to call MSIE superior because I think it is. And that is not an uninfomed opinion, that is having used and still using (for testing) these other browsers that you all like so well. Comparing to Netscape is not meaningless, when considering the history and development of graphical browsers. Firefox is derived from Mosaic - Netscape - Mozilla - Firefox, just as IE is derived and developed from Mosaic and the first Internet Explorer.

I don't know what a webkit browser is, so you are probably right that I have not tried one. My first computer had Spry on it but I didn't use it much. I have used Navigator, MSIE in its various versions, Communicator, Netscape, Safari, Opera (briefly), and Firefox. Of them all, I find Internet Explorer 8 to be superior.

Nevertheless, if someone can tell me what Firefox add-ons or extensions they find useful, I wouold like to check them out to see if I might find them useful, too.


ADDED: Ah! I see some add-on suggestions - thank you, VG - I will check them out and report back. (Or not, if you don't want me to.)

vangogh
05-27-2011, 07:22 PM
I am quite open to changing my browser if I can find a good reason for doing so.

Fair enough. It's never come across that way to me, but I will take you at your word.


As noted here and elsewhere, I do use other browsers for testing.

Again it wasn't coming across to me that way, but I will again take you at your word.


As noted above, all the add-ons I looked at happened to be for the end-user, not developer use.

There are plenty of both. Developer tools are a whole section of addons. In years past a Firefox extension called the Web Developer Toolbar was the best. I still use it a lot. Today though the tool most people use is Firebug, which is an addon that has it's own addons. Webkit browsers (Safari and Chrome) have similar tools to Firebug. I actually prefer the tools in Webkit, but they're basically the same thing. The Webkit tools are built in to the browser. Opera recently add something called Dragonfly (again built in) which is similar. I haven't had a chance to try it yet.

IE has some developer tools you can add, but they definitely aren't as robust as the ones you can get in the other browsers.

The browser tools aren't things you use to write code. They exist more to test code you've written. They can be a great aid for helping you figure out why something isn't working and to help you deconstruct other sites to understand how they were put together.

Here's the Firebug site (http://getfirebug.com/). There's a video showing how it works, though I'm not sure the video is all that great. It skews toward the techie developer.

As an aside move beyond Notepad. There are free code editors for windows that will make editing much easier. Syntax highlighting alone is worth the download. Here's a page with links to some free code editors (http://www.thefreecountry.com/webmaster/htmleditors.shtml). There's even one called Notepad++


I don't know what to look for because I don't have a problem to solve or a need to satisfy

Think of it more like walking through a bookstore and deciding you want to read a book about art. You might walk to the art section and start browsing. On the Addons page there are several categories (one being web development) Many of the extensions I found were ones I came across browsing through the different categories, thought it looked interesting and tried it. Some I later uninstalled and some I use often.


It seems to me that whenever we all get into this discussion, it centers around everyone trying to convince me and other MSIE users that we should not be using IE and should be using Firefox

I don't think that all and if I've ever come across that way I apologize. I do think the other major browsers are all better than IE, but I've often said here that IE is better than most people give it credit for. I also don't think Firefox is the best browser. My main browser for surfing is Safari. I keep Firefox open too, though mainly because I want to quickly compare how web pages look in two different rendering engines. Based on the tests I've seen Chrome is probably the best performing browser overall, though I don't use it for the same reasons you don't use it.


As long as you and others can call Firefox superior because you think it is

The difference is there's actual proof on our side. Most every test I see puts Chrome as the fastest browser. Safari and Firefox seem to switch between 2 and 3 depending on the test and which was most recently updated. I believe Chrome is also the one browser that's yet to be proven hackable. There's a hacker convention that tests this every year. Safari usually comes out on top when it comes to Acid Tests which measure how much support a browser has for html, css, and other standards. IE is usually last on every one of these tests.

I can't speak to why others say browser x is better, but I'm basing what I say on the tests I've seen. Depending on what we're specifically discussing I'll also base it on how well I know browsers are at rendering web pages. I have enough experience there that I don't need to see test.

I don't say browser x is best because it's my opinion. In fact I don't think I've ever said which browser I think is best. When I say IE isn't the best it's based on measurable facts though. By every performance metric that's tested, IE always comes out at the bottom. It always tests as the slowest, the least capable of displaying standard html and css, etc.

If you prefer it that's fine. I think you should use whatever browser you like best. Last time I checked they all worked and display web pages. Just understand that IE consistently tests the poorest in performance and it's generally less capable than the other major browsers when it comes to rendering web pages. That's not opinion. It's verifiable fact.

Spider
05-27-2011, 07:25 PM
Add-on suggestions. That's the same site to which I already went. According to the onsite blurb, there are over 5,000 add-ons there. Are you using them all, VG? It's not very helpful giving me a list of 5,000 items when I have already made it clear that I don't know what I am looking for and have no way of narrowing down that list.

If you are not using all 5,000, which ones are you using?

vangogh
05-27-2011, 07:54 PM
Yes there are thousands of addons and no I don't use them all. You don't have to know what you're looking for. I assume you're capable of walking through a bookstore without wanting anything specific and yet still finding something to take home that you enjoy reading. It's the same thing. It's hard to recommend something since I don't know how you surf. For example there are addons specifically to help with gmail. I'm guessing you don't use gmail, but I really don't know. There are addons for specific sites and for different types of surfing.

I'd recommend searching for web development. When I do that 117 results come back. That's 6 pages of results. It'll take about 10 minutes to scroll through and see if any are of interest. Firebug is first on the list.

The whole point of Firefox is it's a stripped down browser that you then customize by adding extensions. It's not hard to browse through what's there or just search online for Firefox extensions. I don't expect you're going to look through all 5,000+ You spend a half hour looking through a category and see if anything interests you. Next week you pick a different category.

I have about 40 extensions installed at the moment. Most are mainly for web development or seo. I've already mentioned 2, Firebug and the web developer toolbar (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/web-developer/). I'm assuming if I list things like FirePHP, which is a php addon for Firebug it's not going to be of interest to you.

Just go to the site. Look through the categories or see what the most popular extensions are. Most of them probably won't interest you. Most don't interest me either.

billbenson
05-27-2011, 08:08 PM
Look at it slightly differently as well Spider. While IE is your preferred browser, its certainly not the best at everything. Lets make a different analogy. A SUV may be the best thing for hauling kids and groceries around, but is it the best thing for driving across country? Me for the cross country drive I'd pick a Porsche. I'd still want the SUV (or in my case a pickup) for other tasks. In fact, all my adult life, I've had a nice car and a pickup for the home depot run. That includes today as well as my single days.

If you are surfing, checking your bank account, whatever, its a very different thing than working on your web site. Firebug, as VG mentioned above, is a great web development tool including CSS which you have been trying to learn recently. Look at CSS Development : Firebug (http://getfirebug.com/css)

You don't need to use one browser for everything.

Spider
05-28-2011, 09:20 AM
I am beginning to realize (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) that Firefox is highly customizeable. That, if fact, is what this whole discussion is about, right? Whatever I don't like about FF, I can find an add-on to change it, I can find add-ons to make FF more suitable for the way I use the web, and so on. Now, we have often remarked that most web users just take whatever comes with their computer at purchase. Few people (well, many people considering the total numbers, but a small percentage) actually change the settings of their computer once it is plugged in and running in their office or home. Have you any idea (guess or researched statistic) as to the percentage of FF users that modify their FF browser with add-ons, extensions, and the like?

I'm going to guess that less than 10% of IE users modify their browser even allowing for the minimal options available. I would like to know, or get an informed guess, of the percentage of FF users that modify their browsers and the percentage that are using it straight and unadulterated. Any ideas?

vangogh
05-28-2011, 11:01 AM
That's exactly it. So much software gets filled with feature and feature that most people never use so by default Firefox is simply a basic browser and users go about adding in extensions to get the features they want. I've mostly added developer and seo tools. Someone else might configure it work exactly how they want when viewing gmail and other Google products. A 3rd person comes in and adds a lot of social networking extensions.

WordPress is built along similar lines. I have no idea about the % of users who customize, but I would think Firefox users generally understand this is what you do. There are menu options to show your addons and find new ones so it's easily discoverable. Early on I'm sure people knew to do this, especially as the early adopters would have been the more tech savvy. How many people know today I can't say, but other than IE most browsers now have mechanisms for adding extensions. At the same time my mom now uses Firefox at times and I doubt she goes around adding extensions, though I did set her up with one or two when I installed FF for her. She knows they exist, but probably doesn't add any herself.

I did find some numbers

Firefox downloads (http://glow.mozilla.org/): 185,810,200 and climbing rapidly
FF Addons downloaded: 2,490,991,081

which would mean that on average for every FF download 13.5 addons are downloaded.

I also found this article (http://blog.mozilla.com/addons/2009/08/11/how-many-firefox-users-use-add-ons/) from 2009 in which Mozilla estimated it was at least 33% and possibly as high as 53%

Spider
05-28-2011, 12:19 PM
Firefox downloads (http://glow.mozilla.org/): 185,810,200 and climbing rapidly
FF Addons downloaded: 2,490,991,081
which would mean that on average for every FF download 13.5 addons are downloaded.
I also found this article (http://blog.mozilla.com/addons/2009/08/11/how-many-firefox-users-use-add-ons/) from 2009 in which Mozilla estimated it was at least 33% and possibly as high as 53%So, if your 40 add-ons is typical, 1 in 3 FF users have downloaded add-ons. Which jives with the 33% Mozilla estimated.

Very interesting.

vangogh
05-28-2011, 02:31 PM
I doubt my 40 are typical. In fact I just guessed at how many I have since I was too lazy to count. Did the count now and it looks like I have 30 addons installed and enabled. Guessing here, but I would think a small percentage of the tech savviest Firefox users do have similar numbers of addons installed, but the typical user probably has less.

The % is probably somewhere in between the 2 numbers Mozilla mentioned. Maybe it's more like 40%. Keep in mind that article is about 2 years old. The % could easily be more or less today. I looked, but didn't see a more recent set of stats, though it's probably out there.

One thing with addons is the more you add the more you end up adding bloat back into the software. So while addons are a great thing, too many just ends up slowing down the browser. You don't want to add every one you come across. And you have to remember it's not Mozilla developing these. It's anyone. Some addons are great and others are not coded well. I find a lot by reading the usual blogs I read. Someone will mention a new addon and it sounds interesting so I install it. Periodically I go through all the ones I've installed and decide which I really use and want to keep.

It is relatively easy to create them too. If you know html, css, and javascript you can develop an addon.

Of the 30 I have enabled right now I use about half of them regularly. Of those remaining another half I probably use sometimes. The remaining few I only use occasionally, but they're useful enough that I keep them. You can also have addons installed, but not enabled. I have another dozen or so currently installed but disabled. A few I use, but use rarely so don't need them on all the time. The rest are addons that didn't make my last cut. I tend to disable them first and see if I miss them at all. Then the next time I cull the list I uninstall those I didn't miss at all.

Not every developer maintains their addons. It's possible when you update Firefox some addons won't work. FF will let you know which won't work before you actually update so you can hold off until the addon is updated. Usually that happens within a few days or weeks. Some never get updated though. There was an addon called css viewer I liked. When it was on, you'd mouse over a web page and you could see the css of whatever you were mousing over. The functionality exists in other addons, but css viewer was an easier way to get the info.

There aren't as many addons for Safari and Chrome (I'm not sure about Opera). I have less installed on both Safari and Chrome.

If you do want to give FF another try spend a half hour or an hour just browsing through the available addons. You'll probably come across a few that look interesting. Install some and see if you like them or find them useful. I can recommend developer and seo addons, but probably not much beyond that. Try not to add too many at once. Occasionally you'll come across one that causes a problem and if you installed too many at once it's hard to know which is causing the problem.

What I tend to do now is have 2 browsers open all the time (Safari and Firefox) Safari is my main surfing browser and I keep FF open in the background. I'll use FF for specific things or because there's one addon I can't replicate easily in another browser. And it gives me 2 rendering engines to test against. One nice thing about using several browsers is it gives each an incomplete picture of your surfing habits. Let's face it everything is being collected. With two browsers I can be signed into different sites in one and use the other to surf sites where I'd rather not be tracked.

Again if you like IE there's no reason you should change. I think IE is better than people give it credit for. All browsers are capable of displaying web pages in a reasonable amount of time, which is really all they need to do. My main issues with IE are all development things where I know I IE won't support certain standard code that's been out for years (it's catching up though) or that it displays something incorrectly meaning I have to work more to get IE to display it right. Neither of those affects me as a user. Of course since Microsoft won't make a version of IE for OSX I won't be using IE except to test any time soon.

vangogh
05-28-2011, 02:44 PM
By the way I don't know if you saw the link I posted a few posts back to free code editors. I know you like using Notepad, but I'd highly recommend getting something that does a little more. Having an editor with syntax highlight is a really big help. You might not think it until you use it, but once you've been coding with syntax highlight for any length of time you won't ever want to do without it.

Of the editors in the page I linked to I think you'll find either Notepad++ or PSPad to your liking. Neither adds too much. Both are pretty simple, but do have a few helpful features.

Barbacana
01-12-2012, 08:16 AM
Just for the record - and I don't want Russell to think he is the only person using IE - I use IE and like it better than FireFox and Safari (haven't tried chrome, and won't because I don't trust mama-G.) Contrary to many people on this board, I think IE is a far superior browser. I chose IE over Netscape way back and haven't found any iteration of Mozilla browsers to come up to the quality of IE browsers. Stick with it, Russell! Don't let these MS-haters push you around!!!!

Of course you're entitled to your opinion, but it's obviously not based on any experience of Chrome and I have to wonder whether you've actually tried Firefox. People cite a number of reasons for staying with MSIE (corporate policy, for example), but I've never heard anyone cite "quality" before. I don't think a person has to be a "MS-hater" to notice that for several years, MSIE has lagged other browsers in stability, security, and conformance with standards.

Of course Microsoft has greatly improved its standards compliance with each new version after version 6, and (as a "non-hater") I believe that MSIE 9 will continue this trend after the bugs are shaken out, and that MSIE 9 or 10 will eventually turn out to be a great browser. But it certainly isn't there yet, and MSIE 8 has enough quirks that switching to Google Chrome is a perfectly reasonable thing to suggest (as of now, I think it's ahead of Firefox, though Firefox is also a very good browser).

Unless, of course, you're a "Google hater". IMHO it's just not sensible to "hate" any company - it's unproductive, gets in the way of doing the job.

seolman
01-12-2012, 05:03 PM
you shoulda been here 8 months ago when this convo was really hoppin! :p