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vangogh
03-13-2009, 01:38 AM
You know I'm working on WordPress themes and a WordPress framework. Thanks to all who have helped with your thoughts. I've asked what you want to see in a theme, but I'd like to flip the question here.

What don't you like about WordPress themes in general?
What makes them hard to work with?
What do you wish they did better?

Feel free to offer complaints about the themes you've been working with.

Thanks.

rezzy
03-16-2009, 10:27 AM
Ive hinted at this before. I really dont like having to mod some many pages.I know this allows greater flexibility, but for me when I first started my original blog layout I missed some of the pages and it resulted in a quite broken layout.

Ive since learned more about how Wordpress works, but the learning curve was steep.

vangogh
03-16-2009, 11:57 AM
So you prefer to have a minimum amount of custom pages in the theme by default? That's actually one of the things I've been wondering about. How many custom pages to create. If a theme stuck to the same files that are included with the default theme would that work for you?

KristineS
03-16-2009, 12:47 PM
I think the theme should be easy to customize. As we discovered with the OBS theme, putting banners and such in images makes it much tougher to change colors or pictures. I think everyone wants to have a blog that has it's own unique look. Making it easy to customize a theme would make that theme much more appealing, at least to me.

vangogh
03-16-2009, 01:40 PM
Kristine, easy how? Are you saying easy to change by editing theme files or easy to change via an admin panel that offers customization options? Do you have a preference?

KristineS
03-16-2009, 03:54 PM
For people like me, who know just enough about HTML to be dangerous, an admin panel might be a good idea. I can edit files if the edits are simple, but anything complicated will probably have me calling you. An admin panel that allowed me make changes would be nice because I would think that a lot of the mechanisms to make the changes would be built in. I wouldn't have to figure out how to make the change, just what changes I wanted to make.

vangogh
03-16-2009, 07:07 PM
What kind of things in general do you think you'd want to change?

KristineS
03-17-2009, 12:47 PM
Let's see, colors, images, maybe how things are laid out. Maybe be able to move the various sections around, put the categories underneath the archives etc. Change font size and the font on the posts.

It's possible a lot of this stuff can already be done and I just don't know how to do it. I'll admit, I'm pretty much a lightweight when it comes to dealing with HTML.

vangogh
03-17-2009, 12:58 PM
Some of those changes can be done through widgets. Assuming the theme has a widget are in the sidebar say you can add things like archives and categories and move them around within the widget area.

Other things like colors and the general layout can be controlled to a degree through an admin panel.

All the things you're wanting to change are things I've considered. The trick becomes making a theme flexible enough for the possible changes different people might want to make without making it too complex.

Harold Mansfield
03-17-2009, 09:33 PM
It is a given now, that no matter what theme I buy, there will be some hacking going on. I really hate opening up theme files and finding out that the coder has just dumped it in without any organization. That sucks. Nothing is more frustrating than paying for a theme and the CSS file is just one big long paragraph of code.

Changing colors is a big deal, and should be an option in the admin panel (I assume we are talking about a $65-$100 theme)

I have just figured out that I like things such as video and banners, other places besides the sidebar. It doesn't have to be coded in as long as I find my way around the index.php, I can do it myself.

One of the things that I am starting to notice a lot are footers. I am really starting to like dynamic footers that maybe hold the "About" information, an RSS feed to display maybe 5 or so headlines, and an area to list your My Space, Facebook, Twitter, and other social networking addresses. I hate using up sidebar space for those things. (maybe just a 3 column footer widget set up)

Last night I tried my hand at putting some icons in my page navigation menu next to my RSS icon for those things. It didn't come out too well, but if someone could do that, that would be awesome.

Just anyplace else except the sidebar (header, footer, sub menu...what ever)..I think from here on out it should be standard that designers start making room for those different addresses

vangogh
03-17-2009, 09:47 PM
Thanks eborg. Once thing I'll definitely be doing is organizing the code to make it easier for people to edit. I plan on commenting it too to help find things quicker and make some things easier to understand.

I like the idea about icons in the page navigation. I've seen that done a few times and it's a nice touch. I should be able to add that in with the option to show or not show the icons.

There's no reason all that info needs to be placed in the sidebar. On a previous theme I was working on I did just what you suggested with 3 areas in the footer. They were all widgetized with some default content.

I'm not sure yet about pricing, but it'll probably be in the range you mention.

Harold Mansfield
03-18-2009, 02:38 PM
Thanks eborg. Once thing I'll definitely be doing is organizing the code to make it easier for people to edit. I plan on commenting it too to help find things quicker and make some things easier to understand.

I like the idea about icons in the page navigation. I've seen that done a few times and it's a nice touch. I should be able to add that in with the option to show or not show the icons.

There's no reason all that info needs to be placed in the sidebar. On a previous theme I was working on I did just what you suggested with 3 areas in the footer. They were all widgetized with some default content.

I'm not sure yet about pricing, but it'll probably be in the range you mention.

There is not doubt that little functions like that make all the difference in the world. When I buy themes, it's never because of the way the header looks, or the colors...I'm going to change those...it's always because of the functions and ease of use.

I am really surprised that I haven't seen more themes with social icons built into a designated area the same as the RSS icon, especially the way things are now.

It is probably a pain to cover all of them, but I would consider Twitter, My Space, and Facebook to be necessities. (maybe Linked In for business oriented bloggers)

If you were doing a later release, or modified version, you could probably add in the ones geared for entertainment like You Tube, Last Fm and such/

Basically the more space I can save condensing necessary functions and leave the body of the blog and sidebars for content and advertising, the better...but you have to take my opinions with a grain of salt, as you see I like to cram a lot of content in, and many blogs are more traditional with a single post and a sidebar.

vangogh
03-18-2009, 06:30 PM
Part of the difficulty in themes is that you really don't know who's going to use it. One person may want the social media icons and another may not, but prefer something else. You can't put everything into one theme.

My goal is flexibility. Include the things that most everyone needs and wants and some things they should have and then allow the theme to be more easily customized to suit each individual.

Harold Mansfield
03-28-2009, 05:15 PM
Part of the difficulty in themes is that you really don't know who's going to use it. One person may want the social media icons and another may not, but prefer something else. You can't put everything into one theme.

My goal is flexibility. Include the things that most everyone needs and wants and some things they should have and then allow the theme to be more easily customized to suit each individual.

Since I posted that, I found my own little fix for this.

I downloaded Sociable again, (the word press social bookmarking plug in that puts all the bookmarking icons at the bottom of your posts)

I always figured that if people were bookmarking savvy, they don't need my little buttons to remind them to bookmark...they were doing it before buttons, and many people already have a tool bar or a plug in extension that they are going to use anyway.

So what I did, was open the plug in's function files and changed out a few links and icons with My Space, Facebook, and Twitter icons and my account link so that when they click the go straight to me on those networks.

Problem solved.

So now at the bottom of my posts, instead of the Digg, Stumble, Mix and other icons that people have, I have my..My Space, Twitter, Facebook, RSS, Email, and Print icons.

Much more functional, and people use them a lot more than begging for a Digg or a Stumble.

vangogh
03-28-2009, 08:34 PM
I'm using that plugin too. People may not use those icons to bookmark your pages, but I think they serve as a reminder for them to bookmark through whatever method they like.

With themes I think the approach depends on the them. A good general theme or framework should offer flexibility so maybe it would include widget areas in several places to make it easy to add plugins like sociable. Or maybe they would include hooks and filters to make it easier to add custom functions.

If the theme was created for a specific audience like social media users then maybe you would code some of those things directly into the theme or at least create a design that works well with the typical social plugins.

Harold Mansfield
03-29-2009, 02:50 PM
I'm using that plugin too. People may not use those icons to bookmark your pages, but I think they serve as a reminder for them to bookmark through whatever method they like.


I ran that plug in for months, and never did I notice anyone linking out through it, but since I re-installed it with the other icons, people are going to my social networking profiles.
That's why I said "begging for bookmarks" because I was...and nobody was biting.

I can't wait to see what you come up with. I imagine picking the best options to include over others is a tall task.

vangogh
03-29-2009, 05:22 PM
I'm still deciding which way to go with a few things. I'm working on a theme framework most nights. It won't have a ton of features built in. I want the framework to be something other themes can be built on, either as child themes or by working with the framework itself.

After that I think I'll be able to build themes on top of the framework relatively quickly and be able to tailor them more for specific industries or based on specific needs.

There's a lot of work in it. More than I realized at first. When you build a custom theme you know what the client wants. You have a list of requirements. Same when you're working on a theme for yourself. With a theme meant for many you have to think about whether or not certain things should be included by default of if you should simply make it easy for other people to add.

The sociable plugin is a good example. You want it, but does the next person? Should it be included or should there just be a widget area so you can add it easily? Should it be included and turned on and off via a theme options panel? If it is to be included where should it go? There are so many possibilities with no way to please everyone.

I'm thinking of the framework more for the develop who wants to build on top of it and then later develop specific themes on top of the framework. So the framework may have a lighter than expected options panel, which can then be expanded on with the more specific themes. You could build a social media specific theme for one group of people and build another theme geared toward displaying images and video. It becomes thinking about what certain groups of people might want in a theme and then building themes fr them on top of the base framework.

Still plenty of work before I even start showing people, but I do plan on asking a few people here to help me test when that time is nearer.

Harold Mansfield
03-29-2009, 07:29 PM
I think that is a good way to go so you can have sort of "Different models" , kinda like Brain Gardner does with revolution.

Now the big question is, how will you set up support ? Just on the demo, answering questions in the comment section seems to look pretty painless, but that's a whole 'nother thing that I just stressed you out about...sorry :(

vangogh
03-29-2009, 09:37 PM
Yeah in some respects it would be like what Brian Garnder does. I've worked on one his themes for a client and he does a nice job. Very easy to work on his themes. I'm looking around at a lot of different theme developers and the different business models they use. Mining for ideas, taking the ones I like, combining them with a few of my own ideas, and mixing them all together.

The framework will likely be free so I won't offer custom support for it. I do plan on creating tutorials and I want to set up a support forum. I'll answer questions through the forum, but that will save time from having to answer each individually. With the child themes I'm still deciding how support should work. Some people offer support with the purchase. Some give away the themes and charge for support only. There are different approaches and I'm still sorting through the ideas.

You haven't stressed me at all. :) I've been thinking about it for a few months now. Part of the reason why it might be taking longer than it might seem since I first mentioned working on this.

Harold Mansfield
03-30-2009, 12:32 AM
Sounds like a big undertaking, I hadn't really thought about how much goes into putting out a quality theme. Certainly worth the money.

vangogh
03-30-2009, 01:46 AM
I hadn't completely thought it all through when I started either. The more I get into it though, the more questions I see that call for answers. In the end I don't think there's a single right way to build a framework or a theme. There are a lot of good ideas out there and a lot of not so good ones.

One of the reasons I keep asking questions here and elsewhere is to gain a better understanding of what people want in a theme. I may not be able to get it all in there, but the answers help me decide how to approach development.

rezzy
03-30-2009, 03:25 PM
I never knew you could create so many hooks with wordpress themes. Until I tried a free theme and noticed it had a update for me to download. Where I could change the background image.

I always thought the template couldnt not be changed through the admin system. I havent dived into how to establish those hooks.

I think development of your theme depends on the target audience. Do you want developers to work on the framework or more clients to use the template system? Maybe a mixture of both?

I think by making that decision you can target whether you want more back end features or code driven features.

vangogh
03-30-2009, 06:52 PM
You can do a lot with the admin side. I had started developing a theme last year with a large admin panel for the theme, but as I was getting closer to completing it I knew WordPress was changing things and I decided to go another direction.

The framework would be targeted more toward developers and then child themes would be targeted toward specific markets. I can see the child themes doing more on the admin side than the framework, though I want the framework to have an admin panel and be able to do a few things to make life easier for developers.