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  1. #31
    Member Needs New Keyboard Array jamesray50's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold Mansfield View Post
    I've never seen someone spend so much time trying to cheat the U.S. Government out of taxes, while at the same time trying to live here while doing nothing to support the country or contribute one dime. To be honest with you, your entire line of thinking...which is basically you asking us how you can cheat our country, is out of line.

    If you spent as much time and effort growing a business as you did trying to figure out how to dodge taxes, you'd be successful already and have a team of lawyers to guide you on the best way.

    No matter how many times we tell you that you're not the first, and nothing you're saying is new or clever you just seem intent on doing something that's going to land you in jail.

    If you've been listening at all to the Presidential race, you'll see that there's a new found resurgence of idiocy, bigotry, and nationalism against immigrants. Coming to America, sponging off the system, and corporations dodging taxes is exactly the kind of thing that makes many people in America very angry. It's one of the things about the very tax system that you're complaining about that we need to fix, and you're scheming to exploit it.

    This...


    ..is where you are totally off the rails. If you have such disdain for this country and it's tax system, then open a business somewhere else and live somewhere else.

    You expect to have the services and infrastructure in this country that keeps your business flights safe and on time, that interstate highway system and the people who patrol them to get your goods to market, the customs agencies that get your imports through and exports out, the U.S. Navy who patrols international shipping lanes, the local police who protect you and your property, the plumbing, the electrical grid, internet, communications infrastructure, GPS to get where you're going. How about the State Department who makes the deals so that you have other markets to sell to? You expect that when you plug in your computer or coffee maker that it's not going to explode and so on and so on.

    You expect to have certain services and protections that make your life and business possible, but you have a problem paying to support them. Without the government and infrastructure, you don't have a business. All of the reasons why you want to live in America, cost money.

    Many people have been clear that your plan isn't new, or cleaver and it will not work, yet you refuse to believe it.

    Just do it the right way, or live somewhere else. You aren't owed residency here, and no one wants to hear a non citizen bad mouthing their country while coming up with schemes on how to cheat it.
    We'll said Harold! I totally agree with you.

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    Smile Tax circle

    @Harold:
    I am sorry for your personal frustration but wish you sincerely all the best in what ever you plan to do.

    The graphic reflects BY LAW what's doable. It reflects the current situation how someone will be taxed if he lives/work in the US.
    If you think the graphic is wrong, then please feel free to bring up some justifying reasons.


    Many people have been clear that your plan isn't new, or cleaver and it will not work, yet you refuse to believe it.
    Sorry, I haven't heard anyone saying the graphic is wrong. In fact, during the day I reached out to two tax advisers in the US. So far, I got positive feedback from one of them, stating.. that the layout, as shown in the graphic is correct and it reflects the current tax law.

    You also mentioned a couple times that the plan isn't new: I hope not... it doesn't have to be new. In fact, the plan (as far as you can speak from a plan - I just prefer to say having the right information) should be built to be able to play exactly by the rules given by the US tax law.

    Just do it the right way, or live somewhere else. You aren't owed residency here, and no one wants to hear a non citizen bad mouthing their country while coming up with schemes on how to cheat it.
    There is no one bad mouthing the US - it's just a fact that you can find other countries with better tax rates then the US. If you like to hear that or not - you have to live with it. The only one that talks about cheating the system is you. Again, I can't tell from where your frustration is coming from and why cheating is so deeply in your mind - but it also doesn't matter.

    It's obvious you are somehow not happy with your own system or your own politicians and most likely the immigration system. At least, that's what I can interpret from your comments - which are off topic. There is no reason to be frustrated - cheer up !

    That being said.. this topic is about taxes. Nothing else. I will reach out to other reputable tax advisers to double and triple check the graphic.
    And I am very optimistic, that the graphic just points out THE TAX LAW and nothing else.

    And yes.. I don't know if you are a tax expert or if you know any tax experts..... but feel free to bring any proof that the layout posted before is wrong.

    I love that open discussion... even when.. as usual... we are going a bit off topic with some comments..
    but like always... happy posting and of course I like to hear more from anyone else your honest opinion and perspective of view.

    Don't be afraid posting your opinions... I am pretty sure we all would have lot's of fun sitting together on a round table, discussing that topic while enjoying a good glass of wine.

    Lot's of success to all of you,
    Cheers

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by remozseo View Post
    @Evan:
    Now, let's imagine.. a foreign corporation (outside of the US) just owns Real Estate in the US. And that foreign Corporation grants you to live free or for a minimal monthly rent/fee in their property.

    Why should the private person, living in that house to be taxed .. on what ?
    Foreign corporations can't hold property in the United States. You keep forgetting this fact. You need to register with a state in order to be recognized to do business. Therefore the foreign corporation is subject to all of the US laws, including reporting who the shareholders and owners are. You need to follow US tax laws even though you may not think you do.

    Now... based on all the messages I received, including you, you say.. that the Family Father, which I granted to live free in my house, should have been paying taxes. Because I granted him to live for free in my house ? And if he should pay taxes, can you please explain me, based on what the family father should have been paying taxes ?
    Corporate law isn't the same as what goes on between two individuals. Once you add a corporation to it, yes, it'd be taxable especially if you have any ownership interest.

    d) If it renders no services and has zero links to the US, it wouldn't have shareholders based in the US
    If it had ZERO links to the United States, it wouldn't own any real property. All bets are off when you own property. And as noted above, you'd need to register here in the United States.

    Additionally, as a US Permanent Resident, you would also need to disclose your foreign investment... and once that foreign investment shows up in the United States, you'd end up being associated with it. They'd catch on quickly. And while you may not be a US Citizen, by living here you still are required to report worldwide income.

    Sooo... please explain why a foreign company couldn't buy anything without being anywhere in the US registered ? Just don't want to mix up things.
    They may not have checked that you were, in fact, a registered corporation in the state where you made the purchase, but by owning the property you still are subject to all of the US laws. Your lack of knowledge of the laws aren't a defense.
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    "A tax loophole is something that benefits the other guy. If it benefits you, it's tax reform."

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  5. #34
    hello world Array Harold Mansfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remozseo View Post
    @Harold:
    I am sorry for your personal frustration but wish you sincerely all the best in what ever you plan to do.
    It's not my "personal frustration". It's me being offended that you're trying to devise a scheme to cheat the people of the United States. No matter how many ways you try to justify it in your head, you're on a forum of mostly American citizens. Your lack of awareness of what you are saying and who you are saying it to is astounding.

    Quote Originally Posted by remozseo View Post
    The graphic reflects BY LAW what's doable. It reflects the current situation how someone will be taxed if he lives/work in the US.
    If you think the graphic is wrong, then please feel free to bring up some justifying reasons.



    Sorry, I haven't heard anyone saying the graphic is wrong. In fact, during the day I reached out to two tax advisers in the US. So far, I got positive feedback from one of them, stating.. that the layout, as shown in the graphic is correct and it reflects the current tax law.

    You also mentioned a couple times that the plan isn't new: I hope not... it doesn't have to be new. In fact, the plan (as far as you can speak from a plan - I just prefer to say having the right information) should be built to be able to play exactly by the rules given by the US tax law.


    There is no one bad mouthing the US - it's just a fact that you can find other countries with better tax rates then the US. If you like to hear that or not - you have to live with it. The only one that talks about cheating the system is you. Again, I can't tell from where your frustration is coming from and why cheating is so deeply in your mind - but it also doesn't matter.

    It's obvious you are somehow not happy with your own system or your own politicians and most likely the immigration system. At least, that's what I can interpret from your comments - which are off topic. There is no reason to be frustrated - cheer up !

    That being said.. this topic is about taxes. Nothing else. I will reach out to other reputable tax advisers to double and triple check the graphic.
    And I am very optimistic, that the graphic just points out THE TAX LAW and nothing else.

    And yes.. I don't know if you are a tax expert or if you know any tax experts..... but feel free to bring any proof that the layout posted before is wrong.

    I love that open discussion... even when.. as usual... we are going a bit off topic with some comments..
    but like always... happy posting and of course I like to hear more from anyone else your honest opinion and perspective of view.

    Don't be afraid posting your opinions... I am pretty sure we all would have lot's of fun sitting together on a round table, discussing that topic while enjoying a good glass of wine.

    Lot's of success to all of you,
    Cheers
    You seem to be repeatedly ignoring what people are telling you in order to keep hearing yourself talk. There are many holes in your theory as we keep warning you. Anytime you set out to scheme the United States government, they will get you. But hey, if you think you're the smartest guy in the room, I say go for it. People with hubris are always the easiest to catch. Obviously you don't understand America as much as you think you do. Good luck with that.

    How about you actually make some money first? All of this fictitious talk about a corporation that doesn't exist, protecting assets that you don't have, and dodging taxes on income that you don't have is truly a waste of time. I can just tell by your demeanor that you have a long away to go or else you'd be in in a corporate tax attorney's office and not looking for tax dodging info, out in the open, on a public forum.
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  6. #35
    Member Needs New Keyboard Array tallen's Avatar
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    The graphic seems fine as far as it goes; but you didn't put in the graphic an arrow between the corporate wealth on the right side connecting back to the owner living in the US in the top left corner, which is what your scheme is all about (trying to derive personal benefit tax-free from wealth held by a separate corporate entity, foreign or not). As everyone is saying, that is just not going to fly here.

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    @Evan:
    Foreign corporations can't hold property in the United States. You keep forgetting this fact. You need to register with a state in order to be recognized to do business.
    as you pointed out.. it's required TO DO BUSINESS. If a foreign corporations is NOT doing any business in the US, you are not required to register.
    The entity itself just owns property.

    you can read more about it here:
    Rules for foreigners buying U.S. property | Mark J. Kohler
    Foreign Investment in U.S. Real Property | Section of Real Property, Trust and Estate Law | Section of Real Property, Trust and Estate Law / Probate and Property Magazine
    https://www.corporatedirect.com/foreign-investors/

    The IRS explains within the FIRPTA policies how property within the US has to be taxed.
    https://www.irs.gov/individuals/inte...ta-withholding

    I totally agree with you on the fact, that if a company want's to render it's service in the US.. it has to be registered... specifically at the state their service is rendered.
    But again.. that only applies if the foreign company is doing business within the US. I couldn't find any law that states that a foreign Corporation can NOT buy US based property.
    I might have missed something here - but if that would be the case, you wouldn't find so much information about the fact that foreign corporations can buy real estate. If you would like to point me directly to the US-law that states a foreign corporation can't buy US-Property - yes, then lets go from there - appreciate it and I hope that clarifies the misunderstanding !


    @Harold:
    Sorry that you feel offended. You can see that I (try) to layout the Tax Law - nothing else. If there is an error - so be it. I appreciate it if you are calling it out. However, everything on the graphic shows clearly that every single position is TAXED. Can you see that ? Look at the updated version and tell me what you think is not taxed ? Or should be more taxed ? Double Taxed, triple taxed ? lol; Cheer up and relax - it's just a tax discussion forum in which we talk about the tax law, possible options, what's doable and yes, what's not doable !

    You made your opinion clear, I got it and I respect it. But that doesn't change the fact that I am continuing on planing a tax strategy - something everyone should do and all big corporations do. Especially US-based corporations do that very well. Do you not think there is a reason why so many big US-Companies go outside the US ? Are they (in your eyes) all crooks and criminals ? Cheating the system ? Companies that have been started from Americans - why are they leaving the US ?

    Look.. as long as all those companies play by the rules... and they stay within the tax law... (which the majority obviously does)... they do it right, and they can go outside the US ! You also have to respect their rights, their strategies, options, plans and execution - they are just picking their best options and everyone just tries to play the game as good as possible. And yes, it's smart ! If a US Company can grow faster and bigger outside the US - why shouldn't they do it ? First of all it's their right to do it, and second... any company is built for one reason. To maximize profit, capital gains and wealth. And lot's of companies don't associate them anymore with a country, or where they belong to. Business Classes 101 will teach you one thing. Maximize profit - regardless of the companies nationality. You see.. building a corporation is totally country-neutral. Usually companies go where they are treated the best for their business operations. Not even to mention Holdings, and ... well.. again.. some folks call it Loopholes.. but those loopholes are LAW.

    If you feel offended by a small Business Entrepreneur who is obviously "a fart in the wind" compared to the big players... how do you feel about the big players ?
    For your information:
    Tax Havens ? Americans for Tax Fairness
    http://www.americansfortaxfairness.o...-what-you-owe/

    And that article, I guess one of the best.. just explains precisely how it works.. LOOPHOLES=LAW
    http://www.americansfortaxfairness.o...tax-loopholes/

    more mustard ? lol;
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...e-tax-man.html

    Are you feeling offended now by
    - your own politicians you vote for ?
    - your own people who do this to you ?
    - your own tax law ?

    Again.. cheer up and relax.. that's the law - that's what it is.. and it's not just inside the US.
    It's everywhere ! From the Panama-Papers to the Bahama Papers.

    Do I judge them ? Do I say all those US-Corporations are crooks and cheating the system ?
    NO, I don't. I simple can't say that, because they are using the tax law that allows them to play the game like that.

    You might not like that - what can you do ?
    - running for president
    - getting into politics
    - or at least you can sign up at americansfortaxfairness.org

    But fact is fact. It's obvious you will not be able to change anything on that quickly.
    And because of that, I focus on the law, the rules and the framework that is given to us.

    And if you don't mind, I simple want to discuss this with everyone else in this forum. To gain more knowledge, to grow and to simple learn more about that topic.
    Do I know everything ? Of course not. Did I ever say I am the smartest guy in the room ? Of course not ! That was just your feeling and opinion !

    Law, rules, options, what's doable and what is not doable is my focus - and everything else.. immigration issues, foreigners, feelings about a frustrating tax law, etc. simple belongs to a different forum.
    And that's why.. I jump straight into Tallen's comment..


    @Tallen:
    I see what might have been confusing on the graphic. I updated it. And I put your call-out straight into the graphic.
    but you didn't put in the graphic an arrow between the corporate wealth on the right side connecting back to the owner living in the US in the top left corner
    As you can see... the connection and link between the foreign company and the owner living in the US is of course taxed - if, the corporation pays the owner any compensation.

    And this is actually the point. That's bulls-eye. That's exactly what I want to clarify.

    If a corporation (foreign or not foreign) keeps their profit (net profit that was already taxed before) within their company --> the money stays within the Corporation and was taxed... why can't it stay within the Corporation ?
    Is there any law that says, the corporation can't keep their money inside their company ?

    Check out the updated graphic... that's exactly what I want to figure out - that's the core of this discussion.

    Attachment 878
    LINK FOR HIGH-RES IMAGE

    Thank you Tallen.. I think finally we are getting to the right point - thumbs up !

  8. #37
    hello world Array Harold Mansfield's Avatar
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    Of course they're crooked. Of course they're taking advantage of loopholes that we refuse to fix. Of course they're screwing the American tax payer. We all know it. Every American knows it and is furious about it.

    Look, if you're a contributing member to society and paying your taxes then we have no problem. Everyone does what they can to limit their tax liability. No problem there either.
    But when you go off on ridiculous things like it's your money and the government has no right to it, you miss the point of what taxes are and that you, by scheming to avoid paying them, then become the taker that the rest of us pay for. And that infuriates people who play by the rules.

    Yes, we are infuriated by corporations who use America, sell in America, exist because of America's support, laws, work force and infrastructure and then hide money to avoid paying to support that infrastructure that they depend on.

    The bottom line is, tax laws are there. Follow them and there's no problem. But if you think you're going to discover some new scheme that allows you to live here tax free, I can guarantee that you'll end up either with a large owed tax bill AND deported, or in jail. Plenty of people will report you just for the reward.

    In case we haven't figured it out yet, we hate tax dodgers. It's the biggest insult that you can do to the American people, and people take it seriously and we will turn you in. It's the one crime that Americans don't mind reporting one bit.

    You could shoot someone in Chicago, and many witnesses will be scared to come forward. But dodge taxes and they'll be lining up to testify against you. Employees. Landlords. Neighbors. Even the sales girl at Bed Bath and Beyond.
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  9. #38
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    as you pointed out.. it's required TO DO BUSINESS. If a foreign corporations is NOT doing any business in the US, you are not required to register. The entity itself just owns property.


    A corporation holding property is doing business. Thus it requires registration.

    I couldn't find any law that states that a foreign Corporation can NOT buy US based property.
    You'd need to look at state laws, and the term "foreign corporation" to states refers to corporations incorporated in other states outside of that state, not foreign countries.
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  10. #39
    hello world Array Harold Mansfield's Avatar
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    I couldn't find any law that states that a foreign Corporation can NOT buy US based property.
    Really, I simply typed that exact phrase into Google and the IRS came right up.

    The method by which rental income will be taxed depends on whether or not the foreign person who owns the property is considered "engaged in a U.S. trade or business." Ownership of real property is not considered a U.S. trade or business if it consists of merely passive activity such as a net lease in which the lessee pays rent, as well as all taxes, operating expenses, repairs, and interest in principal on existing mortgages and insurance in connection with the property. Such passive rental income is subject to a flat 30 percent withholding tax
    https://www.irs.gov/individuals/inte...-real-property

    In most cases, the transferee/buyer is the withholding agent. If you are the transferee/buyer you must find out if the transferor is a foreign person. If the transferor is a foreign person and you fail to withhold, you may be held liable for the tax. For cases in which a U.S. business entity such as a corporation or partnership disposes of a U.S. real property interest, the business entity itself is the withholding agent.
    Rates of Withholding

    The transferee must deduct and withhold a tax on the total amount realized by the foreign person on the disposition. The rate of withholding generally is 15% (10% for dispositions before February 17, 2016).


    The amount realized is the sum of:

    • The cash paid, or to be paid (principal only);
    • The fair market value of other property transferred, or to be transferred; and
    • The amount of any liability assumed by the transferee or to which the property is subject immediately before and after the transfer.

    If the property transferred was owned jointly by U.S. and foreign persons, the amount realized is allocated between the transferors based on the capital contribution of each transferor.
    A foreign corporation that distributes a U.S. real property interest must withhold a tax equal to 35% of the gain it recognizes on the distribution to its shareholders.
    https://www.irs.gov/individuals/inte...ta-withholding


    No matter the sematics, you cannot live here without paying taxes. You cannot own here without paying taxes. You cannot give it away without paying taxes. You cannot receive any income, benefit, hook ups, gifts, or find a free apartment on the street without paying taxes.

    Thinking that just because "YOU" can't find it means it doesn't exist is foolish. You are obviously not a tax layer or specialist. American tax law is tens of thousands of pages and additions that are always changing. Congress is passing additions to the tax law all of the time.
    You will not find every section and sub section on Google.

    But there's an easy to way to have all of your questions answered correctly and it would have taken less time than you took to create this thread.
    Just call the IRS and ask them. They will tell you exactly what the rules are.

    Why haven't you done that?
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    Never try to fool the IRS. Pay your taxes and stay out of jail.

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